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 Post subject: Trailer loading
PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 9:15 am 
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Hi

I put this topic here because I felt it has to do with training method.
I have a complex problem regarding trailer loading with MJ.

In the very beginning when we bought her she was always very hard to get in the trailer, we could try over an hour and sometimes she still wasn't in the trailer. One day the mean people of our old stable wanted to help and they actually hit her in the trailer. Ever since it went great. She alway went in the trailer perfectly, to scared to get all beaten up again.

Last year I wanted to put effort in it so she would like the trailer more and see it as a positive place and go in it because she 'wants' to and not because she has to or else...

It thought it went great. After some traingin, I could put the trailer there and she would go in alone and in the trailer there was reward.

Now here is the problem. It goes good when the trailer is at its usual place, a different place or enviroment and she won't go in anymore.
Also after we rode with the trailer she won't go in anymore. I trained her to go in the trailer and all this time the trailer was in the exact same place and we never went riding with it.

So now I think she doesn't like to be transported in the trailer because after transportation (at the arrival place) she is very hard to get back in the trailer. I can say for sure that we always drive carefully, never had to stop very suddenly and nothing bad has ever happened. So I don't know where this is coming from.

I would like her to go easy in the trailer after transportation because I would love to take her some place else to make beautiful walks with her. But we can't do this until I get her in the trailer alone. Or else we can't get back home by trailer :)

I can understand if she doesn't like the trailer. Everyone has things they like and don't like. But I would love to have some cooperation of her, it is not she is transported every day.

Does anyone has tips please. Thank you so much!

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 9:21 am 
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Sorry

what I forgot to mention: she always has hay in the trailer, to make it even more comfortable for her.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 4:11 pm 
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Hey Tanja:

It sounds to me like you've done a great job teaching her that the trailer isn't terrifying, but you just need to do more of it! :-)

I think that there are three separate scary things about trailers for many horses:

1. Getting into a teeny, tiny box, which goes against all of their instincts to not get trapped.

2. Having that box move when they're inside it.

3. Ending up somewhere different than where they started.

I think some horses hate this/are freaked out by each of these elements more than others.

And I also think that for some horses, being trailered periodically is more scary than being trailered regularly.

One thing I've done a little of with Stardust, who is not excited about getting in, but is willing to without too much fuss, but who gets really freaked out when its moving (he has a hard time balancing, even when driven slowly and evenly) and gets really overwrought about being in new places, has been to load him up and just drive him around for a few minutes, and then bring him right back home. I need to do more of this! (But I don't have a trailer, so am dependent upon a friend when she has the time to help.) But this has begun to make a difference. Our next step will be to take him somewhere new for a very short time, give him lots of treats when he gets out, load him up again, and bring him home.

Donald is a great trailer teacher -- hopefully he'll share some of his advice here!

Best,
Leigh

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 6:18 pm 
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Location: Belgium
Sounds like a good idea Leigh, thank you.

Because in the past we drove with the trailer to jumpings, and I think she didn't had good experiences there but the fear of being beaten up again was stronger so she got in the trailer.
Now we don't go to jumpings anymore and we use the trailer a lot less. The last times we used to get her to the stable where the stallion was. And again, not good experiences. She stayed in a stable and the 'checking' was not so fun either for her.

There first need to be something fixed on the trailer but I think it is worth it to try it. Thank you.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 7:57 pm 
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Indeed it looks like you've done a lot of good already :-)

My 2 cents...

How does she feel about staying in the trailer - when you close the doors? Is it also o.k. for her? Or even before closing her in - when you walk around, over the ramp, stand behind her?

How about asking her outside? Does she back calmly and slowly with no tension in hind legs? Some horses are unsure about loading because they are unsure about unloading.

Quote:
Now here is the problem. It goes good when the trailer is at its usual place, a different place or enviroment and she won't go in anymore.

If there is a problem with generalization, you use very small changes. A lot of them. I guess you've tried this strategy. How did it work?

Quote:
So now I think she doesn't like to be transported in the trailer because after transportation (at the arrival place) she is very hard to get back in the trailer. I can say for sure that we always drive carefully, never had to stop very suddenly and nothing bad has ever happened. So I don't know where this is coming from.


I've noticed some rule when I was watching (a lot of) NH clinics. Even if people made some progress* that should in theory help in asking the horse into trailer - it didn't. Very often it was more difficult
to load the horse to go home, than to come to the clinic.

I know it's not your situation. But I think about how stress (maybe not only the "negative" one?) changes horse's ability to cope with somehow demanding situations.

* Progress - when looking from the point of view of participants. I don't want to be judgmental. I think about situation when people feel they solved some problems etc.
Maybe that's true. Maybe costs are high (not even because of the "method", but also lack of time).

Quote:
she always has hay in the trailer, to make it even more comfortable for her

Some people say it's better not to have hay in the trailer when you teach the horse to load (it's perfectly o.k. to have it there when the horse already "knows this task" and accepts it calmly).

I don't have strong opinion about it.
But maybe you could check if not having hay in the trailer (while you ask her in) changes anything (in a positive or negative way)?


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 9:33 pm 
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Klara wrote:

How does she feel about staying in the trailer - when you close the doors? Is it also o.k. for her? Or even before closing her in - when you walk around, over the ramp, stand behind her?


When I trained her to get in the trailer I always used food. She could eat the entire time and after it I let her stay in it a little while more. When I don't close the back ramp, she doesn't stay in it. If I close the bar after her she sometimes push it, but when she noticed she can't go backwards she stops. She is ok with me standing behind her with the bar closed. If I would stand behind her and told her to stay without the bar closed, she wouldn't stay. I always left the door at her head open.

Klara wrote:
How about asking her outside? Does she back calmly and slowly with no tension in hind legs? Some horses are unsure about loading because they are unsure about unloading.


Yes she does it calm when we didn't went for a ride. When we went for a ride she does it a lot more tensed. But also never bad has ever happened here. We always guide her trough: support the side that comes close to the edge of the ramp and she really reacts to me.

Klara wrote:
Quote:
Now here is the problem. It goes good when the trailer is at its usual place, a different place or enviroment and she won't go in anymore.

If there is a problem with generalization, you use very small changes. A lot of them. I guess you've tried this strategy. How did it work?


Well this came when I went away for a few days once. I loaded her with the trailer on its usual place: perfect. She stayed at the other place for 2 days (clinic) and then I tried loading her the same way, but the trailer was in another place and it didn't worked.


Quote:
Quote:
she always has hay in the trailer, to make it even more comfortable for her

Some people say it's better not to have hay in the trailer when you teach the horse to load (it's perfectly o.k. to have it there when the horse already "knows this task" and accepts it calmly).

I don't have strong opinion about it.
But maybe you could check if not having hay in the trailer (while you ask her in) changes anything (in a positive or negative way)?


I don't give her hay in training, only when we ride, but I will try this.

Thank you for your reply.

Regards

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 12:00 pm 
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Location: provincie Utrecht
Why don't you try to ride for a little while 10 minits or so and back home again.
Do this for a few times. Then later ride to somewere were you can ride a nice trail and if she doesn't wanted to load again that it is possible to ride her home. So you have no pressure if she realy won't go in. If that is going well you can go a step futher and so on.

I am lucky and have no problems with this :-)


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 6:30 pm 
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Yes you are lucky if you have no problem with this. How did you teach your horse?

I like your idea, thank you, but what I think: if I try to get MJ on the trailer to get back home and she doesn't want and we walk home I will never get her in the trailer anymore.
It's really bad of me, I know, but once I give in to her I have lost this trailer loading game. and it only will get harder and harder.

MJ knows what she needs to do (go in it) and know that nothing will happen (I think) but is unsure of the destination. And once I let her do I really think I will never get her in it anymore. I could see this wrong, but I really think it will be like this.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 10:05 am 

Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2008 9:46 pm
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Location: Auckland, NZ
Maybe this is a very obvious question, and sorry if so, but have you yourself travelled in your float lately? Just to see if anything is especially noisy, or different in any way? I was shocked to discover for myself how horrible my old float was to travel in, it was dreadfully noisy and rattly, no matter how carefully it was driven.

I have one horse who can be difficult to load, and it is mostly due to his last experience — a good trip, and he will load easily next time, a bad one and he will be difficult. My other two tend to be so excited about going anywhere that they hurl themselves on any transport going 8)


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 11:51 am 

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Have you checked that she has enough room to balance herself by being able to spread her legs?
I have found that "box climbers" (and sometimes horses that are reluctant to get back in a box) are the ones that literally can't balance when you turn or brake (no matter how slow or careful you are) simply because they physically don't have the room. If this is the case then trying removing the center partition and traveling her and seeing if that helps.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 2:54 pm 
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Hi

Yes, this could have something to do with it.
See, I have a one horse trailer. And I bought it for that reason. I didn't bought a one and a half horse trailer because I thaught that was way to wide to spread their legs. And I thought she would have more support if the trailer was more narrow. She actually has kind of the space like you have a 2 horse trailer with the middel part in it.
I thought I did something good for her... But I could be wrong.

HMM How can I figure this out?

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 3:16 pm 
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Lots of good insights, and creative solutions to this challenge.

And I think this may be the most important element in successful, or at least tolerable trailering. Creativity.

Of all the things that we know about our horses this could be the defining one that makes us pay attention to the fact our horses are each individuals, and that even then they are changeable according to circumstances, and sometimes for no apparent reason at all. Just like us humans.

I ran across, and unable to cite the source, an interesting suggestion recently. Do not place feed in the trailer manger before the horse loads.

I thought about it, as there was no reason given, and it occurs to me that feed time for many horses is when they are, from ancient instinctual memory, at their most vulnerable.

I watched Dakota, a horse a bit difficult to load, get a very bad habit because I was putting hay in the manger to "reward" him for loading.

What he did was grab the biggest mouthful he could get, sometime a whole thick leaf of hay, and explode back out of the trailer. He would stop immediately, and calmly chomp on his hay prize.

This, folks, is how NOT to train a horse to trailer. I removed the hay, but he had picked up the reaction for a few attempts he boiled back out of the trailer as soon as he was all the way in. Trying to catch him with the butt chain was futile. He was just too fast, so I moved back down the chain of training.

Starting over I shaped toward the goal. This means that I would, at first, click a single step toward the trailer, with treat of course. Then back him up and C/T that. Then two steps - C/T. Then a foot in the trailer, etc.

Always with backing on my voice command. Those of you that C/T know exactl what's happening. It's not getting in a trailer. It's simply stepping forward, and stepping back on command.

In other words I could stop him when I wished. For his treat.

Here's where we most often untrain a horse to trailer.

We get focused on the trailer. The horse picks that up and we have an "anxious" association. We act like we are trapping him, as we are, of course.

Lure him in. Quick get the butt bar or chain up, or the door closed, "because we have to leave for the vet, show, trail ride, etc. right now."

It was delightful to see Dakota, when I got smart and broke down the "trailer entering, backing out, HALTING for your treat" game the first time he loaded all the way forward, and he gathered for that explosive exit --- and --- click!

He stopped, relaxed, and focused on his treat, of course.

You may recall, some of you, the trailering adventure of "The Fancy Mare."

A lovely dappled iron grey QH mare. The owner asked me to train her to trailer. She was difficult to get in, and like Dakota, hard to keep in, and would do a highspeed load, practically jumping in the trailer, but coming out much faster as though she had been shocked. Really frantic.

Wouldn't you know that the barn owner, both owners of the horse, and a neighbor that just had to come and "help" showed up to watch.

As you know, difficult training challenges demand focus. You have to be able to predict, by seeing the horse's language coming at you, and you can't afford to be distracted. Not in a situation where you could get trampled or jambed up against parts of the trailer.

Nothing went as planned. For one thing, she was almost immune to any treat. She simply was too anxious. She did grab a couple of treats from my hand, but it made no difference in her behavior. Dakota, great but funny guy that he is, I think could have stopped in mid air to receive his treat. The world stopped for him at the click.

It took me 45 minutes of circle work for building her courage (you PNH folks know what I was up to) to actually get in. and probably 10 minutes or so to develop a "halt," at different points along the route.

The onlookers, I could tell, could NOT figure out (except for the barn owner who pretty much knows her stuff) why I kept taking the horse out, when getting OUT was the problem. Of course I was teaching her to follow my voice command.

All went very well, considering. Though I was getting very tired.

Figured I had it almost done, had stopped her with her front feet in the trailer, and the wind came up, caught the door on her side and swung it into her. Hard.

Naturally she blew up. But, and one poster in this thread mentioned prior owners beating the horse up in the trailer which made that horse actually willing to get in (but of course with the potential for it all to fall apart at some future time) that's pretty much what happened to The Fancy Mare.

Next approach to the trailer she did get in, quickly. I could see the potential for an explosive exit, but I had found her calm button. The withers. and I pretty furiously began giving her a hard scratching, like a horse's teeth, just ahead of the withers.

And a lot of sweet talk.

Much as I'd have liked to work further with her I knew I was too tired for safety, so I let them button her up, and drive off.

But I do not consider this a successful trailer training by any means.

She has plenty of potential to come apart in the future. I can only hope the owners observed some of the things I did and would do them right in the future. I have a chance to reconnect with them in the Springtime next year, and I'll see if I can coach them to do trailering with her again.

My vote would go to certain suggestions made in the thread: short hauls, tons of goodies (whatever they are for your horses) especially when going to a new location, and of course, when possible, living with the trailer.

Oh, and TIE BACK THOSE DOORS EVEN IF IT ISN'T WINDY.

Think about your horse as you work out your campaign for training. Especially what seems to make him calm and happy.

I had one horse that if I fed him pretty heavily before trailering he was a peach. But put him in hungry? Unh uh, NOOOO way. Stuff him and he'd practically fall asleep, and the trailer then was just a nice safe padded bedroom for him to snooze in.

Some horses are calmed by drinking water, of all things. Some by having their grooming in the same way as always. Routines are reassuring.

That's that thing about trailering that we miss. It's just not routine, and it should be. And one can make randomness routine for one's horse.

Some horse's love puzzles and challenges, others get nervous.

Dakota was charmed by the forward side escape doors and manger doors popping open and me sticking my head in and passing him a treat. A wonderful clown. Dakota.

Some AND folks sing around their horses. Others hum. It's your companion. Do what works for him or her. What others do may be useless, even counter productive, for you and your horse.

Just some random thoughts on trailering.

Donald
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 3:52 am 
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Lets brake down trailer issues further.

Fear of...

Looking into trailer
putting head in trailer
putting front feet in
belly in
hips in
hind feet in
stepping up far enough to shut divdier or but bar
noise of shutting butt bar divider
sensation of being stuck
having the back door adn/or windows closed
being stuck there for a length of time longer than playing
the sensation of moving
being able to balance front to back
being able to balance side to side
having head room
trucks passing by
noise of trailer moving
rumble strips
showing up some place new
backing out

there are also respect isues- does your horse not want to go where you are going.

I know tihs isn't a very AND thing to say, but if people beat your horse into the trailer and she loaded BETTER afterwards- FEAR IS NOT HER ISSUE!!!!! I know that is a hard pill to swallow, but I really really think the problem is leadership- not fear. My husband hauls "problem horses" for a big chunk of his living and we have never seen a horse that was afraid get beaten on and get on better the next time. A dominant horse yes, but not a scared one. That will only make a scared horse more scared, and more imposible to load. You don't need 'dominance' over a horse, but you do need leadership qualities and you do need to be respected. Maybe you have this in other work, but not enough to make her get in a trailer she doesn't feel like being in and going to a place she doesn't feel like going to.

Although, I will say, I know small traillers are a big thing in Europe, but I would NEVER put a horse in the tiny things you guys haul with. I don't even like straight loads unless they have a good place for the horse's chest to hit with plenty of head room out in front. In a side load if you stop suddenly the horses side hits the divider instead of going forwards.

I guess, that is just my pet peive though.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 4:56 am 
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I know there are emergency situations where a horse must be made to do something. But if that emergency doesn't exist, in that moment, then what I need is an open mind...not a demand.

I don't think we can so easily say that a horse is not afraid, because he loads easily forever after a good beating. Perhaps we an only say that we just effectively closed a doorway in his mind. True terror may be harder to beat out of a horse. But a little fear or nervousness...well, actually it's quite easy.

I think the pill is harder for the horse to swallow. It's a little too easy for a human to think a horse is simply being disrespectful. What we learn here is to look deeper. And not just in ourselves, but also in our horses. We study not only how to do things, but we also study our own horses...to be quiet with them and let their thoughts and feeling speak a little louder.

As humans, we usually want a fast fix. But the longer road...the one that may take days, weeks or even months of patient work...can be more than we can handle.

AND is about taking that longer road...because there is more to learn on that road. The shortcut doesn't teach you much that will expand your mind - it only teaches you that shortcuts are possible - but there is a cost involved. If not for us, most certainly for the horse.

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 Post subject: trailer loading
PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 1:47 pm 
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Posts: 1983
Location: provincie Utrecht
I have read this on a other site but for those who understand German it is a nice website.
And they have a nice challance: trailer loading in a horse friendly way. You can send your film to them.
I dont have found out what you can winn, but the idea is nice.
http://www.verlade-kultur.de/index.html


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