The Art of Natural Dressage

Working with the Horse's Initiative
It is currently Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:49 pm

All times are UTC+01:00




Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 52 posts ]  Go to page Previous 1 2 3 4 Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: about longreining
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 11:48 am 
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 15, 2007 2:40 pm
Posts: 4733
Location: Belgium
maybe the rings should be smaller and it would look nicer.

Beta is a an artificial material to use instead of leather.

Don't apologise for not answering, was just to know if you received my mail that's all :)

_________________
www.equusuniversalis.com


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: about longreining
PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 5:38 am 
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 17, 2007 8:18 pm
Posts: 4941
Location: Alberta
A little update on our cordeo longreining!

In order to keep myself from riding too much (it's going really well, and it's so hard to not want to do it all the time), today I thought to only practice with the driving cordeo. My goal was to sort out what Tam thought might be the appropriate position/rein positions, etc to cause a shoulder in. I'd done it before a few times, but really, it was the exact same set of "aids" that would cause a half pass. So Tam was just guessing one thing some of the time and the other thing some of the time and so there was no consistency in his responses. So today was "figure out shoulder in and what makes Tam happy doing it" day. We did it! we figured out a totally different set of cues or aids for shoulder in so we can work now on eliminating the guess work.

So for half pass, I have a little contact on the inside rein to ask Tam to turn his head to the inside, then I lay the outside rein against the outside of his hip...and we have a half pass (as long as he and I are in agreement on which direction we're going). For shoulder in, I bring the outside rein over his back to the inside. I have a little bit of contact on the inside rein (to ask his head again to the inside), and ta-da...it seems that by simply making sure I am in no way touching the outside of his hip, he is quite happy to shoulder-in away from me. A bit simple, huh? But he's chosen it that way.

As for my position in relation to him, for both movements...hmmm...I have to pay more attention to see if there is any difference...but in my mind I am slightly on the the inside of the bend for both. The only real difference is that the outside rein stays on the outside for half pass, and it comes over the back to the inside for shoulder in.

We also got a bit better at simply going forward and turning left and right, and a little trotting, I am able to use a verbal cue for a bit of passage too! We even tried a canter depart, but I would click after a full stride...so I am just rewarding him right now for commiting to doing it...not really cantering. Just a nice, collect depart.

Our whoa kind of fell apart today though for some reason, so I had to resort back to praising him (GOOD!...our verbal "click") for him to halt properly. I think because we haven't worked a lot on halt lately, he's sort of forgot that...so I just need to remember to work specifically on halts so he remembers that they too, are rewarding.

It was a short session today, but absolutely lovely and fun.

I'm still trying to leave him wanting more, and stopping before he's really ready to stop. It's working really well...his energy level is high! :applause:

_________________
"Ride reverently, as if each step is the axis on which the earth revolves"


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: about longreining
PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 8:24 am 
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2009 3:04 pm
Posts: 1706
couple of days ago I went longreining as well, our turns were amazing... oure sideways wouldn't stop (really, at one point she couldn't walk straight anymore, everything went from shoulder out to shoulder in and back again :yes:

But I noticed a very important thing for me and Ruphina... My focus, when I make a turn I should just make that turn myself, not ask her to make that turn while I'm watching her. Again... steering with your bellybutton. I wrote it down in my diary and Romy came with the explanation of the hips. I think it is very important where your hips are pointing. So right now we're trying to make a difference 'hippointment'.

I've always learned to do halfpasses with one rein over her back, every sideway is with a rein over her back. Just to make it clear to any horse... so halfpasses were (when bitless bridle longreining) about having the innerposition and a bit of pressure left and right, left, right, left right. when you do this in the right rhythm of her legs... you get a nice halfpass... but, it won't work with cordeo :sad:

I'm still doubting about how to make the difference in sideways and straightforward, halfpasses and schoulderin/out and appuyement.
Do I need the pressure for her to bend right, I hope so 'cause then a shoulder in/out can turn into a renvers/travers :pray:
but when the small piece of pressure on her neck is for bending... how can I tell her I do not want to turn but I want her to wak away from me? that must have everything to do with position. Not only poisition of the reins... but position of where I am.

I'd like to go to the position while just walking/trotting forward I also have my reins over her back... simply because it helps me... so next step is just a lot of hipmovement to figure out what does what? and a lot of position movement, where does what? And the reins only for 'where would I like to have your head looking to?" :funny: I love figuring this out! Though it's rather hard sometimes... asks a big deal of selfreflection.

_________________
kirsten
time is what you make of it


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: about longreining
PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 1:50 pm 
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 17, 2007 8:18 pm
Posts: 4941
Location: Alberta
Tam also is quite fond of bending his body and moving sideways, so in our previous session, just walking forward, or walking in a nice circle was almost impossible. But we are working it out between us...I must keep the reins open and very soft if I want him to walk or trot forward and go straight. For him it seems that it's all about degrees of contact on the cordeo. Too much contact of course just causes him to stop (well, mostly...he can still have a different idea about that from time to time). So if I don't wish to impede his forward, I have to be very careful not to have contact on his neck and I have to be careful not to lay the reins against his hip if I don't want him to move sideways in any way.

I know I'm not doing this in any normal way, because I'm really just doing things and seeing what his reaction is, and if the reaction is fairly consistent, then that is what we're agreeing on for a cue or an aid. This is a lot like Romy discussed in Barbara's diary of when she played with Beau. She was only asking questions to see what his answers would be, rather than being too hung up on what she thought his answer should be. Because I don't have any real previous experience in classical longreining, then I don't feel that I must get a particular reaction to a particular question. I'm pretty sure you don't either. It makes the exploration of all this very enjoyable!

I am finding that I too must look in the direction that I want to go, but I find that my body posture means a bit less to Tam when I'm directly behind him. If he has a really good view of me...if I'm clearly on one side of him and he can see me really well, then it matters a bit more, but still not as much as if I am at his side, up closer to his girth area or shoulders. In our ground play and moving together, I became quite conscious that literally, my hips are his hips, and my shoulders are his shoulders, but my shoulders mean more than my hips. I don't know if that makes sense, but I need to perhaps explore more how my hips affect how Tam moves. To this point, I have realized that my hips can cue a driving action...I gathered that from watching Hempfling...but it's more apparent to me that Tam reads my shoulders quite clearly, but it depends a bit also on where I am in relation to him.

Hmmm...I'm not writing very clearly today!

_________________
"Ride reverently, as if each step is the axis on which the earth revolves"


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: about longreining
PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 3:22 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2009 3:04 pm
Posts: 1706
No I get your point... I love how everything works differently when your without a bridle! How I need to reconsider a lot of things and how I can use that when I give advice to others longreining (with bridle) most teachers tell you 'a bit of pressure left/right' then all of a sudden I'm there telling them "move yourself a bit more to the left/right :funny: But it works most of the time!

I noticed that Ruphina doesn't react on my bodysignlas when I'm behind her, so I always walk on the inside position when we go straight ahead... O wait I should make some easy drawings to make my position clear to you... those will come! (I'm really into it now!)... maybe tomorrow or any time soon.
But my solution to this all is to have always an inside position (ofcourse not when doing a shoulderout... then the outside position.
So inside behind is straight ahead(close to her hindquarters), more to the inside bellybutton pointing where I want to go = turn, little pressure on the inside rein for bending her neck, shoulder out... starts in the corner I take the outside position next to her belly, bit of pressure on the outside rein for bending her neck and with my body I prevent her from turning... hopefully :roll: Shoulderin is first making the turn (more inside steering with bellybutton) and coming towards her belly (like shoulder out) slight pressure on inside rein for bending neck... and occasionally both reins to stop her form going forward. This is all good as it goes I suppose... But halfpasses is more diffcult... I make a turn (bellybutton and so forth) go straight (hindquarters), slight pressure on the inside rein for bending her neck, coming up next to her belly for sideways movement... but she tends to go way to sideways... and not forward :P so maybe I should take a position in between shoulder in and going forward? Literaly sideways, forward?

Hmm... anything understandable... but all the time... my reins are over her back, so not behind her legs.
I'm behind her for going backwards (small pressure on both reins with the according voice cue and clicking sound) and halting I try to do in the same position as going forward... but slightly more backwards...

Oke... teak a deep breath... Drawings will follow to make everything clear.

[edit]
the piece I wrote in my diary about yesterday...
Quote:
went longreining today again, after all the talking about position and how the reins should be and all things I went to really figure it out, have my mind on where I stand and all. And I figured it out for some things!

I had some troubel when I'm in a turn to get her to move stragiht ehead again, had to 'steer against' the turn and then I had to change positions to steer back; but then she would keep on turning that way, and well some circles in our work as well as our thinking :P
But now I got it, I move more inward for a turn and when I want to go straight ahead I just move closer to her and somewhat backwards, works really great! Even in trot!
The shoulder in/out I got as well, I go stand closer to her frontquarters, by then I only once in every while have to ask her not to go forward in shoulder in but she can do it mostly on her own!
And I tried some sidepasses in the way Karen does them... that works not really great yet... but were on the right track, when I move myself somewhat more backwards and put my rein against her hindquarter we'll get there. I'm so happy I got this figured, it's really difficult for me still to focus on my hip position and on where my feet are pointing but all these small things do something I'm really planning to make some drawings to make everything clearer, for myself as well as others

_________________
kirsten
time is what you make of it


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: about longreining
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 4:26 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2009 3:04 pm
Posts: 1706
It's been quite a while (still busy trying to produce pictures, but everytime I have something new to add to the picture).

For instance this afternoon I went longreining, went really good. It's more a lesson for me then a lesson for her I suppose, I'm figuring out how to have my hips in the right position and so forth.

So my great discovery for today was:

moving forward, is simply moving straight forward yourself, don't look at your horse or anything, just forward, this way my hips are forward and everything lines up quite well.
Making a turn is making a turn, then my hips are making the bend Ruphina has to make aswell. Besides making the turn I step somewhat more to the inside and a bit more forward (next to her belly).

But sideways... that's a whole different story.
Shoulder in/out I stand next to her shoulder, with my face towards her, so my hips actually 'push her sideways' aswell.
Understanding this I used it for my 'legyielding' (which I found as a translation voor the dutch 'wijken' which I used to translate with halfpasses... anyone with the right translation will be my hero for a day :funny: ) so I make a turn, go straightforward, stay where I am (where I used to move a little more backwards) and move my hips (as well as my whole body) and slightly push the outrein against her innerhip (I have the outside rein over her back).
Anything cleared up now? So I used Karen's touching her hindquarters with the rein, combined with Romy's advice to watch my hips and it worked for the both of us pretty well.

Bu it kept running around in my head... "Why do I never here any longreininstructor say something about your position (besides in and outside position) and you hipmovement? Am I the only one doing this incorrectly in the beginning 'till I saw the delight of hipmovement?"

_________________
kirsten
time is what you make of it


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: about longreining
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 4:55 pm 
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2007 8:20 am
Posts: 6076
Location: Dresden, Germany
KDS wrote:
Bu it kept running around in my head... "Why do I never here any longreininstructor say something about your position (besides in and outside position) and you hipmovement? Am I the only one doing this incorrectly in the beginning 'till I saw the delight of hipmovement?"


Maybe some of the traditional longreiners who make the same mistakes just don´t notice them so clearly because they have a bridle with reins and in that way they can compensate for the ambigous signals they are giving - by correcting the horse´s natural reaction to their bodylanguage with the reins? That´s the reason why I always feel that I am not making things hard for myself by not using anything at the horse´s head but much easier actually - I just can´t override that clear feedback from the horse and so it´s way easier for me to notice mistakes and learn from them.

Great that the longreining is going well for you, maybe I will also start experimenting with that a bit more again during the winter. :smile:


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: about longreining
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 5:00 pm 
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 17, 2007 8:18 pm
Posts: 4941
Location: Alberta
In Heinrich's video on training horses in hand (could be in the book too, but I can't remember), he does address positioning in relation to the horse from the point of view of the classical tradition as well as safety and what is practical. He looks ahead where he wants to go and he stays square to the horse. I think in a video, there is only so much you can cover, so really all the information is only cursory.

I'm so glad you are having fun and it's working well!! :applause: :applause:

I can't wait to see more video!

I've had little time the last couple of weeks to play with Tam, and a lot of the time I've spent has been working out what endotapping is all about. So I haven't even touched the long reins!

_________________
"Ride reverently, as if each step is the axis on which the earth revolves"


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: about longreining
PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 12:55 pm 
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 15, 2007 2:40 pm
Posts: 4733
Location: Belgium
Quote:
But I noticed a very important thing for me and Ruphina... My focus, when I make a turn I should just make that turn myself, not ask her to make that turn while I'm watching her. Again... steering with your bellybutton.


I tried the longreining too yesterday with O :cheers: (Yes Nina and Susie, O and I are really doing stuff but I dare not say to much at this point, afraid that it will all go away again… But somehow I think it won’t)
I did it with the cavesson though as it was the first time.

I had the exact same experience! I just made the turn behind Owen and before I could do any other thing he already turned in front of me!
I had the reins loose as well, it was really great and we even did some trot transition :ieks: !


Quote:
This is a lot like Romy discussed in Barbara's diary of when she played with Beau. She was only asking questions to see what his answers would be, rather than being too hung up on what she thought his answer should be.

That is in fact the true and pure AND basics of training, isn’t it :applause: ? And with O my training is much like that.
I do something and his reaction I am going to try to get again by repeating what I did. That is also the way I ride and teach people dressage riding. Often though for a lot of horses, things are rather the same. It’s the way you go about your interaction with your horse that differs in my experience.
That is why I think natural horsemanship systems so strange as they have the same system for an alpha mare as well as a colt… The alpha needn’t (much) guidance, they need respect above all and if they get it mostly all is well. That’s at least my experience.
Anyway, I love reading this thread and hope to have some video to show soon. :D

_________________
www.equusuniversalis.com


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: about longreining
PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 2:19 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2009 3:04 pm
Posts: 1706
video... in about two weeks I'll have a short break from school... should try to get something on tape then...

It is true that, without a bridle it clears things pretty much up for me, well at least it makes me alert on my own way of being, staying, walking, asking, directing and thanking :P In this way I can understand a lot more about Ruphina and well... she about me :funny:

I think your position and the position of your hips could help a lot of longreiners... soon I'm gonna watch a friend of mine who has been doing this for quite some time now... see exactly what she does and try it out on a horse that is somewhat further when it comes to exercises. I want to try it out with way more horses, just to see where it can lead me and if my ideas are okay :roll:

_________________
kirsten
time is what you make of it


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: about longreining
PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 5:07 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2009 3:04 pm
Posts: 1706
went longreining with a bitless bridle, since it was dark and she get spooky and me as well (or is it only me) and then the cordeo is nowhere, she starts running and she doesn't get it quite well enough to not panick when she doesn't get it. But with a bridle... she is perfect! She showed some really nice trots, and even some legyielding in trot! Yes, we're very proud of that!
Her trot is easier to control with a bridle.
and that brings it all back to me controlling Ruphina. Next time... it will be cordeo again. we'll have to figure out a way to get her to not panick when she goes into trot with the cordeo, it feels for me as if she feels very lost with the cordeo only in trot. But we'll just have to take the time and patience (and daylight) to get it right ;)

_________________
kirsten
time is what you make of it


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: about longreining
PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 5:32 pm 
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 17, 2007 8:18 pm
Posts: 4941
Location: Alberta
I think it is confusion...Tam is the same way. I think it just requires that I take it very slowly and allow him all the time he needs to sort it out for himself. :yes: :yes: :yes: If he's not getting it, and get insistent, then he just wants to leave. :sad: So it's all me!

_________________
"Ride reverently, as if each step is the axis on which the earth revolves"


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: about longreining
PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 3:00 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2009 3:04 pm
Posts: 1706
so finally I got time for some crappy picturedrawings of wheren my positions is and how I stand (or try to stand) and which is I think what works...
Should try it soon again (when I have found my concentration back again)

don't know whether or not it's remotely alright, but it works for us for now... we might be in trouble when going in to more difficult exercises... so if anyone has any suggestions. please help :)

From left to right it's straight ahead, leg yielding (which happens to turn into appuyement when we do it in the corner sometimes, still have to figure out how to 'regulate' that, what am I doing then :P) shoulder in/out and a simple (if only it was that simple haha, it was the hardest to find out) turn with a bend...
Image

_________________
kirsten
time is what you make of it


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: about longreining
PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 7:02 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 17, 2007 11:57 am
Posts: 1983
Location: provincie Utrecht
Hi

i think your doing great.
the third pic i think you are a bit to far in the front. The horse will slow down. And probably turn straight to you with his head or leave you when you have to much "power".

i think you do that to tell your horse to make a good rounded bend?? in the corners??
If i am right you can try this:
keep walking a side to your horse and use your hips to "push" your horse a bit away from you, the same as you should do with your legs during riding.
Dont worry the horse is still seeeing you so he knows what to do.

it makes it even more easy for you because you can stay more at one place and dont have to switch each time when you wanna make an other movement. Can you follow me a bit???


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: about longreining
PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 11:39 am 
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2009 3:04 pm
Posts: 1706
You mean, take the same position as when legyielding but turn my hips the other way around (as in: in the turn).

And yes it was about bending correctly, or even making a turn :) I noticed it really helps when I step a small bit away from her, otherwise we will have many other great tricks... but not a turn, but maybe I shouldn't walk that much forward? That was actually a problem because she tends to walk faster when I do, so it's hard to get into that position. So... hmm... have to try (but preferably when the arena is sandy and not muddy :P )

_________________
kirsten
time is what you make of it


Top
   
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 52 posts ]  Go to page Previous 1 2 3 4 Next

All times are UTC+01:00


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Limited Color scheme created with Colorize It.