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PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2008 12:49 am 
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I did not see any other topics or references to him but I appologize if this should be elsewhere.

Is anyone familiar with his 'endotapping'? What little I know is that he uses a ball on te end of a stick to tap teh horse all over which eventually relaxes the muscles (though maybe not at first).

I would love to learn more about it- not that I would use it on every horse, but I do know some horses with extra muscle tension issues and it would be very beneficial to have additional ways to cause them to relax.

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PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2008 11:43 pm 
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I know he has a website and a Yahoo e-group attached to that. I've visited his site a couple of times a few years ago when searching for tricktraining methods, and learned that he did his tricks without foodrewards (which he was very opposed to if I remember correctly) but only with the endotapping as a reward.

I've forgotten the details, but if I remember correctly he later on only had to tap the horse once and the horse would see that as instant relaxation reward - and that I wondered if that was really true for the horse. Just as lowering the head for one second doesn't cause the horse to right away produce more endorphins.

Do you still have his website address? And please correct me if I have remembered things wrong!


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PostPosted: Sun May 18, 2008 3:30 am 
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http://iceryder.net/endostick.html

Here's an article by him. I haven't located any website as yet.

Interesting concept. Could this be why grooming is most often calming?

At the track, when I was a kid, a groom, we learned to groom fast and with some vigorous percussion and knew perfectly well it calmed down those high strung TBs. We'd bump the brushes on each stroke, and each stroke tended to be long and hard.

There really isn't a whole lot new under the sun.

I've always "roughed" horses around with my bare hands. That is handled them vigorously. I grab and sqeeze their crest ... seems to be a favorite. I put my heel into the large muscle groups and push to get the horse to lock his legs and stand leaning against my pressure.

I drag the horse's tail back and forth and 'exercise,' it.

I pull their lips, and their nose pad, and even massage their ears.

Like we humans, so loving of massage outselves, need to be told by academics that this has a calming effect?

Well, if it takes a ball on a stick to do this kind of common (for me) 'massage,' of horse, so be it.

Notice that doing those ground stretches and crunches AND folks do with their horses are also calming?

Heck, it's not confined to AND, of course. Lots of people pull horse's leg back to open up shoulders and stifle, and loosen the abdomen.

And it's calming to the horse. It's no wonder our horses, unlike some poor things that are just taken out, ridden and then put up wet.

Strong manipulation by another has a calming effect. What's the big surprise?

Must we have a special tool, or could we not just use what we already have, but simply recognize benefits, or costs from what we do?

Now there is merit in that. And the study of it. Serious study.

So, has there been a study on why, when my wife, a nice strong farm girl, and Curves workout patron, wraps her armes around my chest and back, and squeezes until she gets that wonderful crackle out of my spine?

In fact, it's about time again. I have worked hard in the garden today in 90+ degree (F) weather.

Plus visited Dakota the Morgan today. Want to guess what I spent nearly the whole time doing?

Hint: he was very very calm afterward.

Donald, who is having great fun picking on too much muchness.

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PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2008 3:23 am 
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Thanks for the find! (the link)

No, massage is certainly not new, but I LOVE the idea of conditioning the muscle to relax. One horse I am working has an old back injury that mentally he just can't get past. I have tossed things oer him all day and the neck day he still dips his back when you go to throw a saddle over- no matter how lightly and politely it is done. He had thermo testing done and it revealed ther is only a very very tiny increase of heat ovetr the old injury. The vets said there is no reason for him to stil be experienceing pain- but try telling him that!!!!

If I could somwhow reprogram his muscles to relax at stimulous he would be so much more comfortable. His own avoidance contortions probably DO hurt his back.

I had heard about the endo tapping elsewhere but had not heard of the ignoring stage where you need to up the stimulous- makes totaly sense now. I had tried it a little and got to that stage and stayed in it for awhile, but obviously not long enough, and I never upped the stimulous. I was just happy that the avoidance stage (or whatever he called it) didn't last long.

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PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2008 4:41 am 
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danee wrote:
Thanks for the find! (the link)

No, massage is certainly not new, but I LOVE the idea of conditioning the muscle to relax. One horse I am working has an old back injury that mentally he just can't get past. I have tossed things oer him all day and the neck day he still dips his back when you go to throw a saddle over- no matter how lightly and politely it is done. He had thermo testing done and it revealed ther is only a very very tiny increase of heat ovetr the old injury. The vets said there is no reason for him to stil be experienceing pain- but try telling him that!!!!

If I could somwhow reprogram his muscles to relax at stimulous he would be so much more comfortable. His own avoidance contortions probably DO hurt his back.

I had heard about the endo tapping elsewhere but had not heard of the ignoring stage where you need to up the stimulous- makes totaly sense now. I had tried it a little and got to that stage and stayed in it for awhile, but obviously not long enough, and I never upped the stimulous. I was just happy that the avoidance stage (or whatever he called it) didn't last long.


Interesting applications probably could be imagined and implemented. The one you describe sounds impressive.

I'd be interested in people's first hand accounts here in AND if anyone does it, including you, any further and passes that threshold of ignoring.

Donald Redux

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PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2008 5:44 am 
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I'll keep ya posted!!! I have two horses with goofy backs and one very tense mustang to experiment with.

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PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2008 1:30 pm 
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danee wrote:
I'll keep ya posted!!! I have two horses with goofy backs and one very tense mustang to experiment with.


My wife tells me her sister reports that their brother (giving us the Andalusian X mare, Altea) is extremely tickled we are accepting her.

He was very worried he'd have to take her to auction. And we know in the US where that's like to take an older horse. Especially one that has foundered in the past.

Ah, but little does the sweet little thing know what she's in for.

Virtually anything on AND that I've seen I'm likely to be trying with her.

Now a ball on a stick. Bowing. Driving in harness.

:lol: :lol:

Seriously, someone asked me if she was fat. I've looked closely at the picture and no. She's not.

She is heavily muscled. Her flanks are slightly concave and one can make out the hip bone clearly.

I suspect part of her part Andalusian is likely Quarterhorse.

Can't wait to hear how that relaxing technique works, Danee.

There is so much tension related to PSTD in horses. Rehabing TBs comes to mind.

Donald

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Love is Trust, trust is All
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So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.


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PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2008 5:32 am 
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Well, I tried on my mustang one day- I tapped for a little over twenty minutes. While I did get a few moments of him stretching downa dn showing signs of relaxation, I didn't see anything that made me say "wow, I wish I knew this sooner." The muscles in his neck did look a little smoother afterwards so that is good. I tried it on the one horse with a sore back- a tapped him hard on the big muscles of his neck, shoulder, and lower haunches, but softer across his upper haunches and, of course, softer over his back. He did get very relaxed when I tapped his neck but hated it near his back or haunches. I kept at it long enough to desensitize him and plenty more, but he never showed any release over his back or hind end.

Maybe it really would work if I tapped harder or knew more about it, but I'm not comfortable whacking a horse in a sore muscle.

I did order a photonic therapy light so hopfully experimenting with it will show better results.

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 Post subject: Relaxation
PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2008 12:55 pm 
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Keeps us posted. This is fascinating stuff. So many here have horses that are in recovery from one thing or another.

Even your description of what didn't seem to work for the horse with back and hip difficulties is useful to know. That he could relax in other areas is critical and could be incorporated in a regimen.

Often therapeutic work for rehabilitation takes a long time before any results are seen. Human or equine.

Also what you found so far might also apply in diagnostic work. You probably were isolating injury or soreness from uninjured areas. It's all grist for the old education mill.

Thanks for doing this work. I appreciate it.

Had an afterthought.

On the principle of Tx in homeopathy possibly this tymphany of tapping might have more affect by reduction of impact, rather than increasing it.

Taps so light they are just brushing the hair.

We are, after all, highly reactive to such subtle influences, and certainly so is the horse.

Donald Redux

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So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.


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PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2008 1:39 pm 
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Interesting, never heard of it.

I thought he was talking about AND in the article whahah!!! :lol:

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 Post subject: Endo Tapping
PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 10:01 pm 

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Location: Cadet, Missouri USA
I just recently just found out about Endo Tapping. I found out about it through the Imagine A Horse Yahoo Group which belongs to Allen Pogue a Trick Horse Trainer.
I must say though that after 4 or five years of suffering severe Panic/Anxiety Attacks I finally found out about someone nams Roger Callangan or something like that. Anyway he also does something very similar. And it works!!! He taps under the eye, on the collarbone, hand, and armpit. There is a specific sequesce to his tapping though. But anyway my first time trying this was I wanted to go see a famous American Pentecoastal preecher but was terrified that I was shaking, hyperventling, and pacy, I tried his technique and I have since been cureed of this phobia so You should look into it!


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 12:05 pm 
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So funny, I totally forgot about this thread, obviously...

And because of Karen and Tam's Diary I was googling the endo tapping and came back here!
ha ha ha !

Best to go back to Karen's diary then :green: 8)
All the info worth knowing seems to be indeed, right here :applause:

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 12:59 pm 

Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2007 10:10 am
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Location: Barcelona, Spain
Endo tapping looks like Emotional Freedom Technique and Thought Field Therapy........There are no studies on either of these techniques - evidence is anecdotal. I can provide links for those interested.
Rita

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 2:26 pm 
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great, thank you Rita! :)

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 8:56 pm 

Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2007 10:10 am
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Here we are, then: Emotional freedom technique turns up under the Thought Field Therapy heading, as it's a variant:

Thought Field Therapy (TFT)

TFT's founder, psychologist Roger J. Callahan, Ph.D., claims that TFT "provides a code to nature's healing system. . . . addresses their fundamental causes, balancing the body's energy system and allowing you to eliminate most negative emotions within minutes and promote the body's own healing ability." [32] The Callahan Techniques Web site also recommends dietary supplementation for persons who "suffer from multiple environmental sensitivities and even allergies which aggravate psychological problems." During TFT sessions, the therapist uses sequences of finger taps on "acupressure points" (primarily of the hands, face, and upper body) and the patient does repetitive activities (repeats statements, counts, rolls the eyes, hums a tune) while visualizing a distressing situation.

TFT is claimed to be nearly 100% effective in treating depression, phobias, and other psychologic problems. It is based on the notion that acupressure points are related to blockages ("perturbations") of "body energy" associated with physical or emotional illness. Proponents claim that the finger-tapping releases the blockages and increases to the body's energy flow. TFT's advanced techniques include muscle-testing (a variation of applied kinesiology) and "voice technology," in which the practitioner analyzes patients' voices over the phone and determines where the patients should tap themselves. "Voice technology" training for practitioners costs $100,000.

Emotional Freedom Technique (EFT), developed by a Callahan disciple named Gary Craig, is said to be a simpler version of TFT that works more quickly [33]. Other variations include Tapas Acupressure Technique (TAT), Negative Affect Erasing Method (NAEM), Midline Energy Treatment (MET), Healing Energy Light Process (HELP), Energy Diagnostic and Treatment Methods (EDxTM), Getting Thru Techniques (GTT), Be Set Free Fast (BSFF), and Whole Life Healing (WLL), all of which are sometimes referred to as "emotional acupressure."

Critics have noted that TFT's underlying theories clash with established scientific knowledge and that studies alleging benefit have been poorly designed [34-37]. In 1999, the Arizona Board of Psychologist Examiners reprimanded a psychologist for using TFT and voice technology in his psychology practice [38] and the American Psychological Association's Continuing Education Committee notified CE providers that TFT courses will no longer be approved for continuing education credits [39]. For further information, visit Debunking Thought Field Therapy.

The same page: http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRel ... serve.html

also contains a review of Neurolinguistic programming, which was mentioned here a while ago.
The references, for follow up, can traced on that page, too. Underlinings mine.

Incidentally, and reminded by Donald's post, wasn't there a technique of grooming in the good old days of providing employment for grooms which consisted in tapping the horse with the grooming brush in some relatively organised way? Perhaps the tapping in relation to horses derives from that tradition? I think the reason given for emplying it was circulatory improvement.
Rita

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