The Art of Natural Dressage

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 12:22 pm 
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It's added. I think you can best open a post on Wikipedia-pictures in the picture forum, and ask the members who gives permission to place their pictures in the Wikipedia pages (if they're selected, that is).

Another thing: in order to not drown this forum in Wikipedia topics I think it's a good idea not to have more than four or five Wikipedia-topics over here at the same time. Maybe it works out great and everybody contributes, then it can become more, but up untill then it's best to start small and see how it works.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 12:59 pm 

Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2007 5:13 am
Posts: 182
Location: Italy
Miriam wrote:
It's added. I think you can best open a post on Wikipedia-pictures in the picture forum, and ask the members who gives permission to place their pictures in the Wikipedia pages (if they're selected, that is).

Done... before reading your post (I too, as Ania, have some telepaty skill :wink: )

Miriam wrote:
Another thing: in order to not drown this forum in Wikipedia topics I think it's a good idea not to have more than four or five Wikipedia-topics over here at the same time. Maybe it works out great and everybody contributes, then it can become more, but up untill then it's best to start small and see how it works.

Excellent. Perhaps only one topic would be largely sufficient to try how this very interesting stuff works...

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 1:11 pm 
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By the way: Wikipedia being neutral? :?:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parelli_Na ... rsemanship

Is something I found by just browsing through to see the writing style of the articles. It's a nice piece, but it sounds like a Parelli advertorial, not a neutral piece on how the training works (the four fases of pressure are forgotten), why it effects horses and why they respond like they do at all.

But maybe we should take this as an example of how not to write a Wikipedia page? :wink:


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 2:03 pm 

Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2007 5:13 am
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Location: Italy
Wiki has hundred-of-thousands (perhaps millions) of articles... you can write something absolutely crazy or wrong or not-NPOV and nothing seems to happen. But... a day, someone reads with a little bit of criticism and then attention is raised.

When? How? it's impossible to say... there's no order into wiki, no rule about sistematical review and editing of the article contents... what's hard to believe, is that such a very interesting and innovative form of "collective intelligence" and of "collective willingness" too, somehow runs.

If you embrace wiki philosophy, and you are a registered user, and you find any mistake or a low quality article, you can't say "this is a bad article"... you have simply to edit it or - if there are some severe NPOV issue - to mark it with a "NPOV tag" (adding some reasonable motivation obviuosly). Immediately the article will be listed into NPOV nominated article list.. and it will be hardly scrutinized by a legion of very severe reviewers! :wink:

There are many other tools into wiki; just to mention one, I'm almost sure that there is somewhere a "tematic village pump" about horses, t.i. a place where horse addicts meet and speak about their passion and build projects, and comment new articles...go into such a village pump, post a comment about any horse-related article NPOV issue, and dozens of wiki users would read, comment, scrutinize, and update it... wiki is like a very big town, where people from five continents meet and discuss and do a highly cohoperative, even if absolutely free, work... I think, by now it is almost impossible to have a good, deep knowledge about any corner of such a large community.
There are lots of rules too! Hundred, thousand of rules... about style, about contents, about coding... but such rules are not fixed by an admin but are built up step by step by users themselves.

Wiki is a strange environment.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 9:30 pm 
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Wow, what a brainstorm! :D
If I didn't have my thesis to write, I would dive in editing articles for Wiki!
But at least I will try to make some good photos 8)


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 10:10 pm 
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The link to the current page called Classical Dressage on Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_dressage


The text itself:

Quote:

Classical Dressage

Classical dressage evolved from cavalry movements trained for the battlefield, and has since developed into competitive dressage seen today. Classical riding is the art of riding with, rather than against the horse, in harmony.
Correct classical riding only occurs when the rider has a good seat, correct and well-balanced body position, moves with the horse's motion, and gives and times the aids correctly.


A history of classical dressage

The first work written on what is considered to be classical dressage was Xenophon's On Horsemanship. It is believed that Xenophon introduced the deep seat, long legs, and forward moving seat to riding, as well as emphasizing training the horse through kindness and reward.
In the 15th century brute force training largely came to an end while artistry in riding was once again coming into its own. Along with these developments came indoor riding. The Renaissance gives rise to a new and enlightened approach to riding as a part of the general cultivation of the arts. By the Victorian age indoor riding had become a sophisticated art, with both rider and horse spending many years perfecting their form. Gueriniere, Eisenberg, Andrade and Marialva write treatises on technique and theory.
The horses were trained for a number of airs or schools, above the ground movements that enabled their riders to escape if surrounded, or to fight more easily. These included movements such as levade, capriole, courbette, ballotade. Movements still seen today in dressage include the piaffe, passage, and half-pass.
Today the only remaining large schools of classical dressage are the Cadre Noir in Saumur, the Spanish Riding School in Vienna, the Royal Andalusian School of Equestrian Art in Jerez de la Frontera and the Portuguese School of Equestrian Art in Lisbon. There are a small number of independent classical dressage trainers who endeavor to keep this branch of the art alive.


Classical dressage vs. competitive dressage

Modern dressage evolved from the classical school, although it is seen in a slightly different form than its ancestor. Competitive dressage is an international sport ranging from beginner levels to the Olympics. Unlike classical dressage, competitive dressage does not require the aires above ground, which most horses can not perform well even with correct training, due to physical limitations. Instead, competitive dressage focuses on movements such as the piaffe, passage, half-pass, extended trot, pirouette, and tempi changes.
In theory, competitive dressage should follow the same principles as classical dressage. However, there has been criticism by some riders for the trend, especially at the lower levels, for "quick fixes" and incorrect training that makes the horse appear correct, but that is in fact neglecting the basics. These short-cuts usually catch up to the rider as they move up the levels and need to be correct to perform certain movements. This is of course, a debatable proposition, as others argue that modern methods, such as the highly controversial rollkur technique, produce winning animals.
It is also believed by some that competitive dressage does not always reward the most correctly trained horse and rider, especially at the lower levels. For example, some riders who consider themselves to be training classically would not ask their horse to hold his head near-vertical when he first began training, and this would be penalized at the lower levels of competitive dressage, marked down because the horse is not considered to be correctly on the bit. Other riders, who also would consider themselves classically trained, would disaggree, saying that if a horse is not ready to travel in a correct outline (on the bit) he is not ready for competition, and this is the reason such horses would be marked down.
The purest form of classical riding, as well as dressage, High School dressage, of Haute Ecole, takes years for both the horse and rider to master. When a horse is advanced in its training, it can perform not only Grand Prix dressage movements such as collected and extended gaits, passage and piaffe, but some can also perform certain "Airs Above the Ground," although usually a horse will only be trained in one air, and only if they are particularly able.


The "Airs"

The "airs above the ground" include the courbette, capriole, levade, and ballotade. Though these movements were said to come from when the horse was used in war, used for protection against the enemy, in their modern form, it is highly unlikely the airs were used in actual battle, as all but the Capriole expose the horse's sensitive underbelly to the weapons of foot soldiers.
The courbette is a movement where the horse balances on its hindlegs and jumps, keeping its forelegs off the ground, thus it "hops" on its hindlegs.
The capriole is a movement where the horse leaps into the air and pulls his forelegs in towards his chest at the height of elevation, while kicking out with his hindlegs.
The levade is a movement where the horse is balanced on its haunches at a 45 degree angle from the ground. It requires great control and balance, and is very strenuous.
There are two main breeds that are most well known for their abilities for airs above ground: the Lipizzaner and the Andalusian. Other breeds that are known for their abilities in High School dressage include the Friesian and Lusitano.
The Spanish Riding School in Vienna, as well as the Cadre Noir from the French Riding School in Saumur, still practice and teach Haute Ecole. The Spanish Riding School uses strictly Lipizzaner stallions for their work.


Last edited by admin on Wed Mar 12, 2008 3:46 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 10:15 pm 
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I thought this Wikipedia page would be a nice starting point - as next to editing the current text, there's enough room for adding chapters on several subjects that aren't covered yet.

The following chapters could be added:
* The natural origins of dressage and collection: the horses' movements at liberty

* In this piece the writer only talks about riding, but forgets that in the old Classical dressage almost every exercise is taught from the ground first. A chapter on that?

* Classical dressage today: Next to people moving away from sports dressage and start 'reenacting' the Classical masters, there are also a bunch of lunatics reading the old masters again in order to get inspiration for training the same thing but then at liberty. 8) Examples being for example NHE, AND, Honza Blaha, and a short description of what they see as starting point/pivotal point in their road to haute ecole.


And of course the existing text above can be edited, but I haven't read it close enough to know what could be changed.

For the good order: Everybody can join in and help create a new, better text! If you see something that could be edited in the existing text, or feel like writing a chapter on one of the subjects above - or think of an entirely new one, please feel welcome to do so! Just take a quick look at the other topic in the Goal forum called 'AND Wikipedia project' for the 'rules' of this project. Don't worry, there aren't many. ;)


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 10:26 am 

Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2007 5:13 am
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Location: Italy
I found the right place for general discussions about horse training into en.wiki:

Wiki Project: Horse Training

Its talk page is just the right place to introduce AND Wikipedia Project to wiki community, and I did this into this post:
AND Wikipedia project

So, a two-way link between wiki community and AND exists by now! :D

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 10:33 pm 
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First draft for a first chapter. Do feel free to cut, paste & add! :D


Quote:
The natural origins of Classical dressage

The origins of dressage lie not so much in the trainers teaching it for the first time to their horses, but in the natural ability of the horse and his movements in the wild. Horses, even one-day old foals are very familiar with the concept of collection: they bundle their forces in this way when playing, fighting, competing and courting with each other. When trying to impress other horses, just as other animals they make themselves bigger by pumping up their chests, raising the neck and making it bigger by flexing the poll, while in the same time transforming their gaits into a more upwards movement too. When horses start to play of fight, a large part of this game exists of close combat besides running after another. In this close combat the horse will collect again because in collection he puts shortens all his muscles a little in order to produce lightning speed reactions, like kicking, rearing, lashing out with the front feet, bucking and jumping in the air. In the classical dressage these natural movements have been perfected over the last centuries in the so-called 'Airs above the ground' or Haute Ecole jumps.
This natural ability to collect is visible in every horse of any breed, and must have inspired the first dressage trainers to reproduce that kind of impressive behavior in more controlled circumstances: on a set of human cues in the shape of Classical dressage. This origin also points out why according to most Classical dressage trainers every healthy horse, regardless its breed, can do the classical dressage movements up to the Haute Ecole jumps, even when they probably will perform it a little different than the ideal performance due to the build of their body. This natural origin of collection and the fact that the horse already knows how to collect without any human tuition has recently led various trainers, such as Honza Blaha, Alexander Nevzorov and Jean-Francois Pignon, to the conclusion that dressage and collection can also be trained at liberty.


Possible pictures to accompany this text: the picture of Bianca's newborn foal doing a passage-like movement in her stable, and the pictures of Alex' horses doing piaffe-, passage- and airs-above the ground-like movements?


Last edited by admin on Thu Aug 23, 2007 10:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 7:20 am 
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And a picture who Frances posted, of her Timber doing almost vertical pesade when she was a foal :D but where is Frances? Anyone remembers this picture?


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 10:35 am 

Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2007 5:13 am
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Location: Italy
How much enthisiasm! :D
So unhappy to "cold" a little bit it...

Consider that "Classical dressage" wiki page has been marked for merging with "Dressage" one (by me, yesterday). There's some discussion about into its Talk page. So, I think it's better to wait some days... while reading with a great attention both "Classical dressage" and "Dressage" articles.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 11:24 am 

Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2007 5:13 am
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Location: Italy
From a little work about http://www.pro4s.nl/artofnaturaldressag ... highlight= , we can get a first, interesting suggestion: take a look to variuos national versions of "Dressage" and "Classical dressage" wiki pages. All from them are different for sure! They are linked on the other, but merging the best contents is far from automatic... someone has to do this work!

On the left column of any wiki page, you'll find a list of languages; any one of them points to the version of the same article into other national wiki.

I can understand Italian, a little French, a little bit Spanish... but some of you can understand many other languages! Isn't true?

Here a list of "interwiki" links for "Dressage" articles:
Dansk
Deutsch
Eesti
Español
Français
Italiano
Nederlands
Norsk (bokmål)
Polski
Português
Româna(
Slovenc(ina
Suomi
Svenska

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 11:20 am 

Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2007 5:13 am
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Location: Italy
I added this to Talk:Classical_dressage wiki page:

Quote:
AND Wikipedia project

This page has been selected as a "test page" for AND Wikipedia project. AND (Art of Natural Dressage) is a small web community, interested into not-competitive dressage and Haute Ecole; its principles are somehow similar to NHE ones (see their forum [1]).

The AND Wikipedia project aims to discuss and edit some relevant wiki articles into their web forum, and to post into wiki the final result. I'm the "wiki expert" (more or less) there.

An anonymous user posted here some time ago this text:

"Nowadays another form of Classical Dressage appears: The Art of Natural Dressage(AND), the art which up holds all the noble causes of the Classical Dressage Art and The Old Masters but without any form of force, cruelty, punishment and dominance. Thus without bits, spurs and even without bridle for a more advanced level."

Such a newbye edit doesn't follows many of wiki rules, and its deletion is right. Nevertheless, the meaning of such an update is very interesting in my opinion; a mention of the work of some groups of rides and trainers who are trying to obtain Haute Ecole results with new, R+ methods (NHE, AND) deserves a mention and the refusal of competition is an important point that they have in common with Classical Dressage and Haute Ecole, and a deep difference with Competitive Dressage, mainly covered into Dressage article. Obviously a mention to AND only could seem self-promotional: some search for a more comprehensive list of such groups is mandatory.--Alex_brollo Talk|Contrib 09:56, 24 August 2007 (UTC)


So, we need a complete list of groups experimenting these new R+ methods, including both NHE and AND (at least) obviously for NPOV issues.

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Alex


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 1:41 pm 
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I read the thread about adding Classical Dressage to the current Dressage page on Wikipedia. I'm not sure if that is a good idea, as in fact the current page "dressage' doesn't cover the term 'dressage' at all anyway: what is discussed over there is Dressage Competition rules, or FEI dressage. I think it would be better to rename that page so that the content agrees with the title, than adding more content to it.

The current project can run anyway as even when Wikipedia might in the end not accept the result, we can still aim for creating an objective text on dressage, it's history and future for our own use anyway. :D


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 1:48 pm 

Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2007 5:13 am
Posts: 182
Location: Italy
I begin to disagree with myself about my merging proposal...:shock:
Nevertheless, a "Dressage" page only exists on many other wikies, and only in two of the national wiki a "Classical dressage" page exists (if it exists).
Any suggestion from Nederlands version? From other national versions? (I deleted the links to other versions so exotic, that no character was visible...:wink: )

The Italian version is very poor.

Here an interesting animated GIF from Poland wiki article about dressage:
Image
As perhaps you know, GIF can be "animated" just as a brief movie!

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