The Art of Natural Dressage

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 10:22 am 
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The original one and the modern grand prix one:

http://www.philippe-karl.com/modules/ne ... &topicid=3


I must say, it made me spit out my coffee over my laptop :funny:

But it is the physica behind his explanation I really love :) And I think could be of value here.
For the rest no discussion needed here :)

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 1:06 pm 
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That is a wonderful article!

Is his book "Twisted Truths of Modern Dressage" at all helpful for understanding training progression from a Classical standpoint?

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 1:20 pm 
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I have not read it. I guess I don't feel the need to read it because I am not interested in Modern dressage.
It is to me as Romy says, it's all about 'goals' not about right or wrong.

I simply have different goals than modern dressage riders.
But knowing Phillipe Karl it will be a really good book and I hope it will answer a lot of people's questions.

Nevertheless, I am going out to a well known Grand prix rider soon to watch him experiment with a bitless bridle which I send him to try on his request.
And I am really interested in the result. I know with academic riding bitless is not an issue, it's even more achievable often without bit in my experience.

But bitless in modern dressage, will be interesting to observe, won't it? It is a completely different way of riding and the bit and spurs play a huge role.
The grand prix rider said, and I quote: 'I need to have a certain head set. We can argue about whether or not this is good, but I need it in what I do. Let's see how the bitless bridle will effect the grand prix dressage horse training.'
I respect his honesty :)

I salute him for his intrest on this and will do whatever I can to assist him in persuing his experiment.
He is not the only grand prix rider though who rides bitless in training. André Ganc from Brasil does it as well. I send him a bridle and so did Dr. Cook.
I must say, André's approach is much more classical. He also used NH as groundwork.
Also ex grand prix rider David De Wispelaere uses bitless in his training and he even gave a bitless demo with one of his stallions.
And funny enough, Phillipe never uses bitless :funny: to my knowledge. I am not sure what his ideas are about it.
If I get the chance to attend a clinic I shall ask him. Will be interested to see whether he has tried it as well and what his experiences were.

More on this later.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 1:57 pm 
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I wasn't really thinking from a bitted/bitless perspective, but in finding a good source for what the true progression should be for training in the classical manner. If Piaffe should take years, at what point in the training is it considered? What comes first? What comes next when the first is established, etc? I'm also not interested in training in modern dressage...but would still like to find books in english that can help me understand how the training went classically...because there was always a reason that B only followed A, and that D comes before E, etc.

Of course from an AND perspective, it is when the horse is ready and he will say when he is ready...but I'm still interested in reading about classical training to try to get a more knowledgeable base.

The book description says that the book not only covers what is wrong with Modern dressage, but also classical training. Maybe someone here has read the book and can tell me? I was just wondering if it is only a book about condemning one way of training, but if it is also instructional in a better way of training.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 3:50 pm 
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Indeed, but the modern dressage, Academic dressage and bitless discussions seem to get more and more intertwinned somehow.

ah, yes! Of course, I forget that not all books are in english but mostly french and german.

I would suggest:

The complete training of horse and rider - Col. Alois Podajsky
Le manege royal - Antoine De Pluvinel
School of Horsemanship -(Translated by Tracy Boucher) Francois Robichon de La Gueriniere
The classical rider - sylvia Loch
Dressage in Lightness - Sylvia Loch
'In Respect!' or 'Classical Schooling with the Horse in Mind' - Anja Beran (I still have to read that one)
Reflections on equstrian art - nuno oliveira
Academic Equitation - General Decarpentry (haven't read it yet... have to ask it for Xmas)
Gymnasium of the Horse - Gustav Steinbrecht

is what comes to mind... :)

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 8:21 pm 

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Hi Karen,

I have Philippe Karl's "Twisted Truths of Modern Dressage". Whilst it does discuss what he feels is wrong in modern dressage and why, most of the book is about his own approach to training. I found particularly interesting his analyses of what happens in the horse's body with different movements (correctly and incorrectly done), illustrated with his own drawings. And it has lots of inspiring photographs!

Of the books mentioned by Josepha, I have:

Anja Beran's "Classical Schooling With The Horse in Mind". This is a lovely book, again with lots of beautiful photos. I found this explains more clearly than Philippe Karl's book in which order different movements should be taught.

Sylvia Loch's "Dressage in Lightness". I haven't read this for a long time, but quickly scanning through, it looks like it would give you the information you are looking for - what the progression should be for classical training. It's well-structured, has a lot of details, and plenty of diagrams, drawings and photos.

Alois Podhajsky's "Complete Training of Horse and Rider". This is in some ways a denser book, with fewer illustrations. I found it less clear to follow (just from the structure of the book, probably - chapters aren't divided up so much) and would probably use it as additional reference to any of the above books.

I have to qualify these comments by saying that I am not at all experienced in classical training so am not in a position to comment on how correct, helpful etc. the actual descriptions of how to train the movements are. I bought the books to learn from but have sadly never got to a position where I have tried to do any but the most basic of these things with my horses, due to their health problems :sad:.

It's a shame you aren't in the UK or I would happily lend any or all of them it to you - but they're all heavy books and posting them across the Atlantic would probably cost as much as buying them! I would be happy to scan the contents pages of the books and email them to you if that would help you decide whether any of them would be helpful to you?

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