The Art of Natural Dressage

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 2:11 pm 

Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2008 11:43 am
Posts: 209
Location: Herefordshire - UK
Ok I apologise if this is in the wrong area, I really didn't know where to put it so please move it if needbe.

I need to have a little rant and I hope no one minds but this IS the ONLY place I can have such a rant, with us all being likeminded people.

Why is it so hard for other people to grasp the concept of Listen to you horse??

Now I use a few other equine forums, one in particular I have been a member of for a very long time. I am not trying to ram AND down everyone's throat - yes if they ask what it is I do etc, I am passing the link on but other than that, people will only be open to other ideas when they are good and ready.

It just seems to me that the world is lacking in good old common sense more than anything :huh:

I am absolutely sick to death of reading threads on other forums along the lines off;

"My horse is doing ....(i.e. bucking).... what should I do?"

and the responses are always the same old blooming rubbish

"whack it with the whip"
"get on and ride everyday"
"do more work"
"push them on more"
"make them work harder as punishment"
"put a stronger bit in it's mouth"
"add a gadget (i.e. pessoa) to put them how you want them"

The list could go on and on and on and I am sick to the back teeth of it.

Why can't people just for a second, stop and think "why is my horse doing this" is it really so much to ask???? The horse doesn't just do something for the sake of it, there is always a reason as to why the horse is doing what it is doing, normally to benefit itself. Is it really that far-fetched that other people simply could not even imagine this??

Sorry for the long rant, it is really just getting to me.

This is why I love this place so much. If it wasn't for friends on other forums then I would have left a long time ago but each time I log on to one of the other forums, I am just hating being there and just come running back to AND.

Honestly though, are people really so narrow minded that they loose all form of common sense???


xxx

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 2:33 pm 
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It all depends on the goal one has.

Is it your goal to get something done from/with your horse, then you do anything to make him do it.

Is it your only purpose to make you horse happy and learn from him... well, there is AND and alike.

We are not all the same, I once did not get it either. Wanted the horse to show society what an excellent person I am ;) In spite of him, alas...

And may I remind you, you might have been struggling a tad with the concept of 'horse always goes first, horse is always right' yourself not so long ago :) ;)

All in good time. Let's just focus on our own horses and the humans that actually ask for info on what we are doing.
The rest or 'jamming down people's troaths' as you put it so nicely, is just wasting energy as it will never work.

Warm regards,

Josepha

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 2:38 pm 

Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2008 11:43 am
Posts: 209
Location: Herefordshire - UK
Good post :thumleft:


Josepha wrote:

And may I remind you, you might have been struggling a tad with the concept of 'horse always goes first, horse is always right' yourself not so long ago :) ;)



Yes totally but I always have had the thought of find the "problem" then the solution will come. So I do find it so difficult to get my head around the fact people just don't seem to have common sense??

I guess it isn't really a case of AND or non AND, yes AND do "think" more openly etc but I really do think that common sense would trigger in everyone's head "why is he doing that"???

Surely?

xxx

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 3:26 pm 
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well, the lost common sense humans seem to have does not just apply to horses, does it?

If so, we would not face a financial crisis, a environmental problem, childlabour, animal testing, bio industry... shall I go on?

this is all connected of course.

As long as ego, status, money and lust for power remains sociaties first goal, the larger pictures, or in other words, what really matters, will be forgotten.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 3:32 pm 

Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2009 6:50 am
Posts: 321
Sam, As you know, I so completely agree with you... It is frustrating, but then, as Josepha has already said, different people have different goals. And if their goal is to just make the horse do what they want, then why not choose the easiest (for them) quickest way? Taking the time out to understand a problem is something that many people (it seems more these days) just don't have the time and patience for, and why bother with that when a whip or spurs or some other gadget will get them the results they want (or think they want) right away.

Patience and understanding seem to be a rare commodity these days, in life in general, not just in horsemanship.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 3:41 pm 

Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2008 11:43 am
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Location: Herefordshire - UK
I agree common sense in humans does lack in every aspect imaginable, not just horsemanship. This could go very deep but I am just meaning horsemanship.

I also agree that different people have different goals, and I think this is a good thing. If people were all the same and had the same aspirations, dreams and thoughts then what a very sad and boring world it would be.

My recently set up business is called "Open Mind Equine Training" and this is due to the fact I am OPEN about everything equine. I still really just cannot understand how people just give such "un-thoughtful" advice to people.

One post on my other forum which I use, was asking what to do if your horse refuses a jump? The amount of people who commented along the lines of use a whip or ride firmer and make the horse do it. It seems to not so much as cross peoples minds as to why would the horse be refusing in the first place?

Why do people automatically suggest hitting the horse and make the horse go over the jump? It totally baffles me it really does.

xxx

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 3:50 pm 
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Well, because of:

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=2137

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 4:49 pm 
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Quote:
Why is it so hard for other people to grasp the concept of Listen to you horse??


Now you understand that there are very few REALLY good horsemen/women out there. Regardless of the methods used, the best trainers DO know how to listen to a horse. But they are very few and far between. For all the others, the horse is just an animal, and they feel there is nothing to listen to. Their loss of course, but also the horses' loss, sadly.

There are people on this forum, and there are people NOT on this forum that DO listen to a horse. They put the horse first. Being rare creatures, you just don't see them often. It is a joy to see though, when you do see them.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 12:22 am 

Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2008 2:02 pm
Posts: 1072
Location: UK Worcester/Hereford border
Josepha you are a wise soul, I think Buddhists would attribute many lifetimes to you.

I have come to AND because the wonderful free bond taught by my pony. The realistion of having fun but not at the same level when horses were tacked and I was attempting to ride properly in my British fashion, and stiffened both myself and my poor horse.
I forgive myself, because my horses were generous and would forgive me. I knew there were better ways and have found them demonstrated and shared with clear explanations on this A.N.D. site.

Of course we become outraged when we see a pony in ill fitting tack, buck because his saddle hurts him and his owner thinks he is just a naughty pony. We would be outraged if we watched someone torture another human by causing neuralgia, forcing metal in their mouth and bruising them, hitting them with whips, spurs etc Or applying a pressure halter and pulling tight against them.
I probably would say something out of place.
It would not make the situation better.

Yet eventually, with sites like AND, more people will come to learn there is a better way, and have discovered a horse as a friend not an animal to be dominated.
The photo pages here have horses giving testament to the quality achieved by training without harshness.
When people see these horses they cannot fail to be 'wowed' by the freedom of expression and boundless spirit of a horse who is a partner. One day everyone will want one and realise this is only achieved through compassion and understanding. The horses speak for themselves.xx

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 8:48 am 
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PiePony wrote:
Josepha you are a wise soul, I think Buddhists would attribute many lifetimes to you.




:blush:

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 9:33 am 

Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2007 10:10 am
Posts: 184
Location: Barcelona, Spain
"I agree common sense in humans does lack in every aspect imaginable, not just horsemanship. This could go very deep but I am just meaning horsemanship.

I also agree that different people have different goals, and I think this is a good thing. If people were all the same and had the same aspirations, dreams and thoughts then what a very sad and boring world it would be".

I think the very fact that we find it so incomprehensible that people don't go with "common sense" or "the facts" or whatever we choose to call the external world points to a human mental mechanism of interpretation which does not necessarily produce share-able results. Human memories and senses are shown every day to be more malleable - and fallible, come to that. Understanding, or at least taking on board the idea of how we mould the world mentally helps a great deal to accept these non-comprehension events which take place between individuals - and groups, too.

Highly recommended in this respect: Robert Burton's "On Being Certain".
Rita

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:07 pm 
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Hello Sam,

I know you from another forum, and I have been consistently trying to get people to think about horse's feelings and motivations over there for about 4 or 5 years now. I haven't made many friends :)

I will keep plugging away, because I occasionally get a PM from someone thanking me for getting them to think differently about something, or saying that a suggestion I made worked for them :smile:

If I felt I had changed how even one person thought about their horse, I would feel it was worthwhile!

By the way, there are a few people on there who think similarly, but generally, through a nice combination of negative reinforcement, positive and negative punishment, we all stay fairly quiet a lot of the time. My current best technique is the hit and run approach - I post a reply, then absolutely refuse to let myself read the thread for several days, at which point I am unaffected by the sniping replies from those whose traditional beliefs have been challenged ;)

And I have here, as well as another very positive horse behaviour forum, to retreat to when I get despairing with all the "just show him who's boss" replies :)


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:26 pm 

Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2008 11:43 am
Posts: 209
Location: Herefordshire - UK
I guess it comes down to the fact that "Rome wasn't built in a day" :yes:

I am just happy with the way I do things, as are my horses and anyone who doesn't approve of the "natural" way then I guess it's just their loss :green:

xxxx

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 10:29 pm 
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Location: Grantville, PA
Maybe I'm just lucky, and maybe this is why I am not pure AND, but I find more and more people who really do make sure their saddle is well fitted, want to make sure the bit is not smacking the horse in the palate, blame their own riding for the horse's not so perfect behavior, and assume that if a horse bucks he might be hurting (when sometimes it really is a lack of leadership). Both in real life adn the internet (of course I stick to fairly 'natural" sites) it seems most people really do wnat their horse's opinion.

It is only when talking to professionals that they give a long list of reasons why a horse NEEDS a noseband (and a flash, both adjusted tightly :evil: ) Most everyday horse people, I say I don't use these, they ask why not, I tell them it just takes away the horse's ability to tel you somthing is wrong and next thing I know the cavesson is in the bottom of the tack box. Tehy just keep it in case they show in which case they adjust it loosely.

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