The Art of Natural Dressage

Working with the Horse's Initiative
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 8:16 pm 

Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 2:34 pm
Posts: 131
Yesterday evening I was thinking about this and came to an interesting conclusion.

We don't expect all dogs to be good at obedience, or agility, or to be brilliant sheep dogs. We keep in mind that different dog breeds have different qualities, and that even within those breeds all dogs are unique; we adapt to the qualities, skills and talents of the dog we choose to buy. And when we set out to buy a sheep dog, we look at dogs that have these skills.

And yet with horses the mentality seems to be altogether different. We buy a horse -any horse- and expect that horse to do as we ask of it. I've seen countless people say "Yeah, my horse much prefers jumping, but I don't like it. I want to do dressage, even though that isn't his favorite."

Isn't there something wrong in that? For all the credit horses are given, as being such beautiful animals and such, we seem to have a profound lack of respect for them, for most part. Where does this come from?

You don't FORCE a dog to sit down. You ask it, and by good training, he will do as you asked of him. Why do so many people think the only way to ride a horse, is by force?

...perhaps because it is made possible. Because people like to think they're better riders than they are? Because of peer pressure, to perform, to show off, to get your horse to listen to you at all times? But where does that peer pressure come from?

Even the people at my stable: they see me working with Dafner, they've watched her transform. And everyone looooves the tricks she performs, so they are all working on the jambette, want their horses to lie down, or to give them a goodbye kiss. But NOBODY seems to understand the larger picture - the idea behind it. None of them realized that 'hey, apparantly horses will do things for you without force!'

Maybe they will realize this if I put it to practice in riding - I don't know. But it amazes me that so few people realize this. Even if you want to do dressage competitions, or jumping, or whatever you prefer; you can still respect your horse, keep in mind their character and feelings. And that should be a positive thing, a GOOD thing. So why does the majority of horse people deny this, call us silly, and continue shutting down their horses' initiative?


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 9:06 pm 

Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2008 11:43 am
Posts: 209
Location: Herefordshire - UK
I come across this all the time sadly.

People honestly do not show any interest in "thinking outside the book" so to speak. When I take Kiwi to local shows, the amount of odd looks I get for the fact I am riding bitless is unbelievable. Then when people realise he is also barefoot AND an ex pacer, they just look at me in such a strange way. I don't know if they think I am loopy or if they just can't believe what they are seeing.

Through the recent problems I thought I had with Abbey, everyone is very quick to tell me "stick a bit in her mouth, be more dominant, carry a whip. If you give her a good clout then she won't do it again will she", I mean, what is with this? Why on earth would I want to punish her? Yes I have come to realise that even what I thought was natural in the NH methods I have been using were actually still all about pressure and dominance but I am not going to solve what I thought was a problem by adding aggression into the mix.

Maybe people are scared of the unknown? People may be happy to live in their narrow minded lives and just don't want to open up to possibilities?

People may look at us like silly fools but in fact maybe we are looking at them in the same way for not having an open mind?

I don't know why people do not open up to possibilities but I am sure as hell glad I have. The past couple of days have given me so much joy and I am excited to do more and more with my horses. At the end of the day I am feeling that people who do not want to think outside the box, it is not only their horses loss, but their loss too.

xxx

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 10:56 pm 

Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 9:58 pm
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Location: Western Cape, South Africa
FEAR!!!! :ieks: :ieks: :ieks:

If I don't have control all the time something bad will happen.......isn't this what all those "riders" think?
I know I did...... :blush:

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Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans. - John Lennon


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 10:57 pm 

Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 9:58 pm
Posts: 1622
Location: Western Cape, South Africa
Plus they have to let go of their ego.....which is hard for all of us.

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Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans. - John Lennon


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 11:24 pm 

Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 2:34 pm
Posts: 131
But...control is just an illusion..one that we all like to believe in, that's for sure. But an illusion nonetheless..because a horse set on throwing you off, WILL throw you off. With spurs, whip, bit and all. Horses have to cooperate with us all the time, just by obeying us. By responding correctly to the cues we give them. Why do people not understand this?

I mean..before, I simply did not know. But I find strange is people who blatantly disagree with this, I mean; what's there to deny? Nobody can honestly believe that you can force a horse into a canter; ergo, they work for you because they want to. (or because they are afraid of pain, which is the other reason. But why do people feel it's okay to hurt your horse if it makes them listen? Ever seen someone hit their dog for refusing to sit down? Wonder what people would say about that...)

The ego-thing may well be true, not wanting to admit you were/are wrong. Or maybe because this takes more time, and is confrontational on the riders' part? Because hey, if you have to drag your horse around and cannot ride with a loose rein because your horse will jump or run, then switching to AND means admitting that you are just not doing a good job.

..perhaps it is also about self-sacrifice? AND also means listening to your horse, which may well mean not riding, even though you feel like it. I guess people don't really like that; they spend big money on their horse, so they want to ride it whenever they want. But if that is your idea, then buy a fancy car...


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 8:10 am 

Joined: Tue May 19, 2009 8:29 pm
Posts: 233
Location: Kuusamo, Finland
this is something that I have been musing about recently as well. Millions of people all over the world own dogs, cats, rabbits, hamsters and gerbils, allsorts of birds, insects and reptiles and fish, some even goats and pigs etc and they don't *expect* anything of these animals other than for them to just be what ever animal they are. nobody (or very very few at least) think I'll get a cat because I like the idea of having one sleep on my bed and then shout at / punish / force it to sleep on the bed if it turns out that the cat doesn't want to and evetually sell it or kill it just because they can't make it do this. and yet as soon as we get into the arena of horses you are told that you have to make your horse do things. Walk, trot, be ridden, pull a cart, lie down, what ever. the horse *has* to do something, *has* to have a use. We keep allsorts of animals for little more than their companionship and yet horse *must* be for something else.

Something I find, now that I stand on the other side of the fence, very difficult to understand even though I once thought the same.

And of course if a horse *has* to do something we therefore have to *make* it do that something. Even if it doesn't want to. no, especially if it doesn't want to because otherwise it has no purpose and we would have to sell it and give up the dream. And yet the dream, as we know, has nothing to do with forcing our horse to do things and we feel bad about forcing our horse and other people seeing us forcing our horse and so we drill the horse over and over, knocking out all signs of resistance from him until he is nothing more than a robot so that it looks like we aren't forcing him, it looks like he is doing it all because he wants to because then we can decieve ourselves and others into thinking that we are living the dream, we have the perfect horse that will let us do anything to it because it loves us.

And this need to appear to have this perfect relationship drives us to use stronger and stronger force, a stronger bit here, a whip there, add the spurs and double reins, anything to make the horse comply and keep our distorted version of the dream alive. shouting, hitting, screaming, frustration and anger at our horses because they make us look bad, because they are ruining our dream.

And all the time this behaviour is reinforced by seeing others around us doing the same, we feed off each others need to pretend this is normal so that we can all live this dream, marketing men feed it by telling us we need these things, trainers feed it by showing us how to do it, and all the time the thing that is driving us is the very thing we are never going to acheive if we keep doing things the way we are. If asked, i believe that 90% of people would tell you they keep horses because they love them.

Another aspect of it of course is adreneline. We humans are hunters and dominators. Hunting our pray and forcing submission releases adreniline into our system which urges us to do more, push more, release more and more adreneline. It is part of our genetic make-up and for some very difficult to overcome.

Add into all this the fact that horses are big, heavy, strong willful animals that most people are afraid of, and rightly so if they treat them this way. We know in our human reasoning that even with the strongest bit in the history of the world, we don't actualy have any control, not when it all come down to it, and we are terrified that one day the horse is going to realise this. And so we keep him beaten down, submissive and "under control" so that he doesn't get any lofty ideas about exercising his own will, or seeking retribution for all the wrongs we have done him.

Derision and disbelief of any other ideas on how to treat or train horses usualy comes from those with the most to lose. If they start to believe there are other ways of doing it, if they are wrong to be doing it this way, if horses really will do what you ask if you just give them time and patience and understanding, then everything they have with their horses starts to unravel. These methods can't be true because then i wouldn't be able to get my horse to do anything, i wouldn't be able to show other people how well I am living the dream, i wouldn't be able to keep up the pretence in my own mind that I am living the dream. If I thought that my horse running away from me in the paddock was anything other than disobedience to be punnished I might have to start looking at everything differently and then I would never be able to get a saddle on him again, let alone a bit in his mouth. and without a bit i have no tool of submission and without submission I have nothing.

And this also goes some way towards explaining why the NH method is so popular. It allows us to still dominate our horses and force them to submit to us whilst covering it in a nice wrapping. It is "natural" and has nice terminology like "games" and so we can pretend to be really understanding and working with our horses and truely living the dream because it is all "natural", isn't it?

So yes, i guess what it boils down to most is fear. Fear of the horse, fear of ridicule from our peers, fear of not being able to make things happen, fear of realising that we aren't living the dream, not even close, and fear perhaps of what they will unleash if they really give the horse a choice?

And the real kicker...if you ask these people why they think we AND type people do things the way we do, a lot of them will tell you we do it because we are afraid of our horses.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 9:16 am 

Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2007 10:10 am
Posts: 184
Location: Barcelona, Spain
Ah, humans and control..................yes, indeed. You can see it must have been a really adaptive trait - now backed up by technology which makes us all but invincible in most of our interactions with other species. The point about our conceptualisation of other animals is important too - "companion" animals, "domestic" animals, "food" animals etc - these mere adjectives determine life or death for millions of animals - it's wonderful that thousands of people are beginning to see this and try to take up a more ethical position in the world.

On the man-as-hunter front, Mark Rowlands (his books "Animals Like Us" and "The Philosopher and the Wolf" are both excellent) makes a very good point: wolves (e.g.) bring down the herd stragglers, the weak, the infirm: humans (aided by technology) MAKE their young, healthy, vigorous victims helpless so as to exploit/kill them. We can see people trying every trick in the book to control their horses (before they see the AND light) because they want the horse alive at the end of the process to win medals, applause, kudos, whatever, but where a species - e.g. cows - does not have this to offer, there is no point in trying to communicate with them, just exploitation. Just bad luck coming into the world in the wrong (human-made) category, I guess.

Rita

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 8:12 pm 
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Location: UK
Hi Dani, I am afraid that dogs are to often abused and bullied just as horses are, in fact most animals both wild and domestic can be. I used to work my Border Collies in obedience and I have seen so called trainers hang dogs with a choke chain until they almost pass out. The idea of dominating dogs and being pack leader is very big at the moment.

Not all humans are like this the Native Americans and also the Celts to name but two treated animals with respect and compassion and saw the animals as their brothers and sisters. In today's society there are people who do feel this way I think of animals as my brothers and sisters as do many others.

Times are changing and I think perhaps the problem with a lot of people is that they have been brainwashed into thinking it is okay to push animals around. When we stand up and say no we do not do it this way people laugh at us to begin with, after a while they notice the relationship we have with our animals and they want the same.

I think animals like to have a role to play in life, like humans enjoy doing a job and take pride in their achievement. Our older herd is a herd that was established over twenty years ago, new members have joined the herd older ones have passed to spirit, we have never sold a horse. I love to watch each has their own special task, the little pony cares for the older horses when they are no longer quite so agile, a helpful push with his nose when they get down to role. Some like to be ridden and others have more important matters to attend to.


I think the important thing is that we listen to them just as we would any member of our family.

Eileen

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 9:41 am 

Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 2:34 pm
Posts: 131
Heather - I never thought of NH that way, as still being all about force. Do think you're right though. I do believe a limited amount of 'force' is okay - when Dafner bites me, I hit her on the nose/neck. Not ridiculously hard, but hard enough to make her feel it. Apart from everything else, I do believe I need to be the leader in our little herd; because if it isn't me, it's her. So I suppose there is always some force involved, although that by no means means (:P) that there isn't also a great deal of respect and friendship.

I'm thinking that maybe most people don't have natural leadership skills in them (as I do seem to have a bit; no bragging, but I appear to have a natural feel for how to react to unwanted behavior etc.) so they use all sorts of tools to help them establish that leadership? Rather than just grabbing a book and learning about this, either because they don't think this is the problem ("my horse is just difficult, I need a whip or he won't listen!") or because they don't even know that such a thing (as leadership, dominancy, respect, etc.) exists in horse-human relationships. Perhaps that is the greatest problem of all, many people not even realizing there is another way, and certainly not realizing why one would want to choose that way..


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 11:14 am 
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I so agree with you Eileen... I have exactly the same view and experiences :)

@ Dani, if your horse choses you as leader that is great :)
Still not all horses require a leader, be it human or horse, is my experience :)
When my horses bite me, I just say 'aw! you hurt me' and leave... the look on their faces ha ha !

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 11:28 am 

Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 2:34 pm
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True. :)

Hitting her partly is because of how she was at first. She did not want interaction with humans. If I entered her stable, she would turn her behind to me and not let me near her body/head. Thinking about that now breaks my heart; it is so easy to forget what it was like at first, but how far must things have gone for a horse to respond like that to humans? It took me a month to gain her trust..and she will still turn around with strangers entering her stable at times, or even with me when I bring something in she doesn't know (like fly spray, or a new blanket, etc.).

While hitting her for biting me does not seem the answer with such a horse, ignoring and leaving would've been worse; I was scared she would then constantly bite me, just to get me away. Should say that she has never really bitten me, mostly bitten at me; and even that only very, very occasionally.

So much for that little diversion, haha.

And Eileen, you are very right indeed. I do feel that people are slowly becoming more conscious of the way they treat their animals, and that is a good thing. :)


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 11:40 am 
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a month... that is very short! wow!
It took me many years to gain the trust of my horses and Inocencio is not quite there yet and Jamie never fully will I expect.

oh, if I where to hit Owen, he would hit right back... :ieks: So does his nephew by the way.
Since then I have not used the hitting thing. It's been beaten out of me :funny:
I forgot it excisted :alien:
But indeed here also, really biting almost never occurs... I used to be black and blue on my arms all the time. Now they seem to stay in a nice even colour :green: .
You are so right, one easily forgets the past... :)

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 3:31 pm 
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Location: provincie Utrecht
Josepha wrote:
When my horses bite me, I just say 'aw! you hurt me' and leave... the look on their faces ha ha !


ha thats a good one just walk away. i would love to see such a face, would be funny :funny:
last week i was riding in the arena and practising fromt trot to canter and back to trot. This is very difficult for me and my horse.
But each time it goes correctly he get a cookie. After a few good ones i gave a cookie and he bit me in my hand, to hard to get the cookie. i said AUW you fool you bite me, and some other bad words :blush: but did not hit him or yelled, just say the words at a normal voice sound. After that i go riding again.
did some other things and go back to trot and canter. He did very fine and i wanna close the training for that day and give a cookie again. He pick the cookie very softly with his lips. And look at me....with the question thats better????.....
yeee what a horse ......

what i have learned is if you tell the horse what you wanted or more like to see he will do it for you without any problem.
But you have to ASK it and not force it.
What i see often is the opposit. Those people are still blind and only focesed on what THEY wanted and not interested in animal feelings.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 3:44 pm 
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i said AUW you fool you bite me, and some other bad words


whahaha!!! oh I can picture it, believe you me! :funny: :funny: :funny:
I can be good with the bad words when I get hurt whahah!

You know, I too think dogs are just as bad treated as horses, well at least here in Belgium.
Everybody thinks a chain that can strangle around the tender neck just as normal as bits and spurs.
They even sell electric collars here! to 'train'.. :ieks:

I too used the chain on Gina... :sad: I never thought any wrong of it, like I used the bit and martingale on my horses... (slap myself... and now every time I get bitten I think, well, I deserve it still for all I have done... ha ha !)

Now I know better, I even designed a special dog harness which beholds the opposite of control: it is made so the dog can pull without hurting his body.
And, would'nt ya know... they do not pull as hard any more!
Lack of adrenaline I figure and the human now actual has to communicate to the dog.

The dog harness is called Anubis... should say enough.
But then again, we are completely crazy... we followed our dog for 5 hours around Maastricht like slaves with no will... and had the best time ever! :green: :alien:

Ah! Gina's hot pink Sunglasses came in today, protecting her eyes when she hangs out of the car window :)
Need ralph to make a picture :)

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 4:51 pm 

Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 2:34 pm
Posts: 131
Will give a longer reply later, but when I say that 'it took a month to gain her trust' I meant the trust of her allowing me to enter her stable, not her unconditional trust. Still working on that, and will be doing so for months to come, hehe.


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