The Art of Natural Dressage

I have yet to see this happen!

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"Ride reverently, as if each step is the axis on which the earth revolves"

Karen,
my experiences are mostly from dog training, in particular dog agility, frisbee playing etc., activities that involve a lot of jumping, twisting, racing or even freestyle competitions. Some people have told me that horses will try things their bodies are not ready for, like stretching too far, repeating motions too often, standing in unnatural positions. The general idea is that strong pleasure can sometimes override temporary pain. I'm sure I could avoid a lot of mistakes of asking too much by studying anatomy thoroughly.

Hey Birgit!

I can certainly see that this could be possible, but I haven't seen it in my horses either -- they are really clear when they are done with things, and treats don't seem to be enough to push past that (whether fatigue, discomfort, or, 'nope, boring now!'). I'd be very interested to hear if anyone has seen this happen with their horse(s)!

On other topics, I think your questions about exercises vs. more prevalent transitions, hill work, etc. are really interesting.

What I've found working with Stardust, who I was doing a fair amount of this with (not as much hill work as I would have liked because hills were a challenge for us to get to) for almost five years, plus traditional dressage training -- longeing (with and without side reins), circle work, ground poles, both in hand and mounted, etc. etc. etc. until we both were ready to weep , is that we hit a certain level of conditioning and movement quality and then hit a big, fat wall.

As we've begun to work the exercises described here, he's finding a balance in his body that we'd not found before. I think a couple of things are happening -- first, he's learning that exploring moving like this can be fun, rather than work, so he's far more open to trying things (no fights like we used to have -- I despair when I think about how I tormented him to do lateral work from the saddle with heavy duty leg pressure, for example -- now I can raise a hand and he steps over, or what I subjected him to trying to get him to longe in a balanced way -- and we're now beginning to get ramener and the very beginnings of collection at the trot completely at liberty). Second, and at least as important (and probably far more relevant to people who aren't dealing with a horse with a big history), he's learning to use his body with a specificity and a new awareness.

I've been watching this curiously, because I didn't know how it would translate! We've been working VERY lightly and he's not the most muscled he's ever been, but he's got far more strength in the hind and balance than I've ever seen. It feels to me like he's discovered his whole body -- he used to feel like a push me-pull you, with front end doing one thing and hind doing something completely different. And I'm more and more convinced that while strength plays a role, this more specific body awareness is the key...

And, lastly, we're learning far more sophisticated ways of talking to one another -- my sense of finesse with cueing is light years beyond what it was before we began to work this way. Part of this is because we're spending so much time really focused on each other, and part of it is, I think, because doing this reward-based work has forced me to break down what I'm asking for in his movement in far smaller bits and pieces -- helping me to much better understand the movement even as he's better understanding it.

So, for me, this feels like yoga or modern dance training -- not trying to replace natural movement, but expanding body awareness and balance and conditioning so he can more fully use his body. This has been particularly obvious with Stardust (though I am beginning to see its effects with Circe, too, as she starts moving more like a grown-up horse with lightness and confidence) because he was SO out of his body when I got him. It was his enemy for many years -- hurt all the time -- and he developed all sorts of mechanisms to counteract pain.

Hope this is interesting/helpful!

I loved your thoughts on collection, BTW. I'm looking for balance and fluidity and grace -- collection feels like the most advanced moments of that, and something that we can move in and out of, but not the be-all, end-all, at-the-expense-of-everything-else goal...


Leigh

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A question for those who do not believe in overstraining one´s body with only positive reinforcement, because this is something I am pondering about at the moment: Do you believe this to be true for young horses, too?

The reason why I am asking this is that if it was up to Pia (2.5 years), she would immediately start practising all kinds of bodily straining movements, preferably rears. I would rather wait with that until she is older for reasons of bone maturing and related things.

I am trying to find a good balance between being reasonable and going with her wishes and ideas, so my question is: would you encourage a young horse to do those movements?

Well, all young animals and humans can easily overstrain, that is why they should not work and be allowed to rest whenever they feel like it.
On the other hand, young bodies heal a thousand times faster then an adult one.

I always wonder about all those people worrying about the fear of positive reinforcement overstraining the body. (I get that all the time)

I would be more afraid about overstraining the body with 'getting away from the pressure' even more so when using things like bits and spurs.
For with pressure, adrenaline kicks in, and THEN there is a huge risk of overstraining the body for we do not feel our bodies anymore with adrenaline flowing thru, evne if it is a little.

With food treats... eating and chewing calms down. Less change of adrenaline, less change of overstraining I think.

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I totally agree with you, but in our specifc case that´s not a comparison that helps me - because even if there are methods that could be more harmful for Pia than what we do, that´s maybe interesting but does not directly concern us. I won´t start using bits and spurs on her. What I personally would love to know is how far we can go with her offers and when I do have to be more reasonable because she can´t possibly know the long-term consequences that certain exercises could have on her body.



Tell that to Summy! For him, treats do not exactly have a calming effect - maybe the chewing calms him down, but the excitement that is created by the expectation of the rewards makes him more stressed than any pressure ever did.

For my horses it is indeed the case that they do more bodily (and mentally) difficult things than they did with pressure... I just don´t know how easily it can get too much, especially for my little baby pony.

Owen was so stressed to in the beginning, but now he calmed down, knowing he will get the treat ha ha !
Now Ino is the one going crazy

And I am pretty much the same... for good food I do just about anything.
The excitement though feels a lot different on my body then when I am in pain or upset.

I know what you mean.
In all sports, people argue or are afraid about children and how to train them. For instance when I was 4, I was on classical ballet. We really had to overstretch and the point is, we could because we were so young.
But now, I have all sorts of dificulties with my joints... from the ballet?
My grandfather had to work really hard as a child on his parents farm, when he was 70 he was more agile than a lot of 40 year old men.

It is hard to set a standard because everybody is different and a lot of other things are accounted for as well, build, food, stress.. I do know that carrying weights (like fitness or being ridden) and over stretching on a regular basis will do damage for sure when the child is still growing.
There are enough cases to prove it.

I know that I should not have allowed Gina to walk stairs and rund an play outside all day before she reached 13 months, because now her hip is damaged... :( All my fault. I just never realised it then.

Now your thinking; "all very interesting cackle, Josepha, but what is the answer?"

Well, according to what I think the only thing we can use is our common sense and our gut feeling.
What would be logical to overstrain a child, in this case a horse?
According to our logic and our gut feeling?

I find that mostly, there we find all our answers.

And we shall make mistakes, for sure, always.
That is just the way it is.

I have come by you diary with Pia whenenever I can.
I personaly do not think she will be harmed in any way

But if you really wonder... maybe we can all search for someone on this planet that has scientifically researched this?

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I did not post it and went back to 'ask' Monsier De Pluvinel and Xenophon.
They let horses be trained by their herd members until 4 or 5, then they start groundwork for collection.

Maybe the answer is to view all the things young horses do amongst themselves and how often they do it.
That is pehaps as far as we can go, I think.

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Thank you very much, Josepha!

I have split the topic so that now we don´t have the overstraining discussion in the collection thread but as a separate thread. Just trying to keep some sort of order...

You're welcome, just thinking out loud... that is why I love this forum so much.

And thank you for keeping order here...
What good is information if we can not find it?

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Where did you (that question is for everyone!) first hear that you could over strain a horse with food?

I first heard this idea in the NHE forum...where it was frowned upon to use food, so I wonder if it wasn't just used as a way to justify the rule. Is it something that is based on fact, or was it only used as a convenient rationalization? Did the idea come here to this forum as a vestige of our collective NHE forum experience?

I certainly see horses get emotional over food...and that isn't a good thing. Just as balance is sought in the body for optimum health and development, balance in the mind is every bit as important (if not more so). That was apparent early on with Tam because it was clear to see that if he got emotional at all, his learning curve went down. So to me, composure is key. Keeping the horse composed requires that we slow down the training at times . If composure is maintained (horse is not confused or stressed in any way that might unnaturally tense the horse's body) then the horse can think clearly and is aware of what his own body is doing and what it feels like. Even Tam will stop or refuse to do something he cannot easily do as long as he is in a clear and peaceful state of mind. A sense of fun does not block this ability in him. But I can see when confusion does come into play and I will simply stop what we're doing and do something else.

At any time, for any reason, if I see whole body tension in him, I stop asking what I'm asking. I abandoned our piaffe attempts for this reason (for now) until he is capable of the attempt in a more relaxed way. Now I keep it to a few steps and I keep it moving forward. It is not something he offers to try very much on his own...so I can only think that if he is in a clear state of mind, he is self aware enough to know it's not good for him.

I watch some conventional trainers, and it's easy enough to see when confusion or fear or stress enters the equation. Mostly they seem to choose to "work through it"...that is, they will continue to ask the same thing until the horse understands. I prefer not to work in that state, because it cannot be a happy learning place for the horse. I would rather seek out a way to ask the horse that is SO CLEAR that the horse can understand immediately and so avoid the confusion. In that state, when the horse doesn't understand what is being asked of him, his whole body tenses and in that state of tension, any movement has the potential to cause harm...because at that point the horse is not physically aware of himself.

Now, I am no scientist and what I believe has no more basis in scientific fact than (I think) the idea that my horse is likely to hurt himself to get a few morsels of grain) to me, the possibility of over straining is more likely to occur when the horse is in an unbalanced state, period, whether one uses food as a training tool or not.

That the horse be mentally composed is THE most important thing, and then everything else will look after itself naturally. The horse is mentally aware of his own body and the mind is in a state to rapidly soak up knowledge.

And Romy...with Pia? I think that Pia can get mentally excited in a fun way, then if it becomes necessary for her, she blows it off with a good dash through the pasture with heels flying! I do not see any physical or mental tension in her when you play together. One of the reasons that you are such a marvelous trainer is your own ability to reward precisely and that gives the horse a clarity and sureness - and that in turn allows rapid learning. And the fact that you can do it with so many different horse personalities is one of the reasons I admire you so much!

Josepha, you are this way as well...in a very calming way you can reach a troubled mind and you do not even try to ask the horse to learn until the horse is capable of it, mentally. There are many others here (too long to list) on the forum that have this gift - either naturally or they have done their homework and learned it. So many people here learn to be aware of the whole horse.

Training at liberty allows the horse the freedom to relieve themselves of body tension, and if we are aware of how we are asking the horse to do something, they should also have the freedom to relieve themselves of mental tension. All it takes from us is to be alert to the tension reflected in the horse's muscles of it's body. So, not just seeing what the ears, eyes and tail tell us...but the state of the whole body.

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"Ride reverently, as if each step is the axis on which the earth revolves"

Well said Karen.

the thing is... no problem with adults... but children.

Children love to give their absolute best when triggered the right way, even if it would be harmful for them... and the trouble is, at the time when it happens, it does not feel like harm at all. It is later in life, the harm becomes appearant.

I think that is what Romy is worrying about.

Ralph told me about a discussion on a dutch forum because Miriam said in her book you could teach a foal to say 'yes' .
People already thought that could be damaging...

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Leigh,
thanks for your detailed answer. Never having done conditioning in a horse beyond a very basic level, I felt I needed to rely on someone else's experience here. This is why it's so valuable to me and many others that some of you have a lot of experience in traditional riding, training and conditioning of horses. I guess this would technically have to go back in the collection topic? but maybe it fits here well enough.
What I hear you saying is that doing the exercises that are listed in the groundwork section will isolate muscle groups and encourage the horse to use them consciously. The analogy to dancing makes perfect sense.

I don't know dance but have found this expanding body awareness in learning other sports and also in learning how to ride. It must be true in any sport for people and the best instructors/coaches are those who can break things down into small baby steps, keep it fun and then gradually put all the elements together. What is happening in AND (and maybe other places) is revolutionary in the way that the horse is seen as capable as being an active part of the creative process of creating movement that is taken from the natural but is organized and refined. That's what makes it art to me. With horses that have been trained with force and pain it would of course take much more time to get them to the point where contributing to this creative process through play is something that they enjoy. Having spent years in rehabilitating dogs that had lost confidence in mankind and their own abilities, I so much respect the huge effort all of you make who are working with horses who have had a very rough start to being trained by people and some for a very long time. I can see how some of them may need their whole life just to unlearn, patience is definitely required.
My own horse has definitely had some bad experiences, having been started by someone in a twisted wire snaffle, but she was still very green when I got her and was never used for competition. The worst she had to endure was my riding her with ill-fitting equipment and being badly balanced when I first started, even though I was trying so hard to avoid making mistakes.

This is so interesting, hitting a wall of course happens in training for any sport, but in this case it could be the result of the lack of positive reinforcement and overload of negative, even if pain was not involved (aids were highly refined). What I think can be salvaged is a lot of the movement, like having the horse go over cavaletti, going uphill etc. but using positive motivators like targeting to make it happen. I want to experiment this spring by putting a whole bunch of obstacles in our big, hilly pasture and see how many our horse goes over on her own, without even using targeting. This is like teaching lying down by waiting for it to happen naturally and giving a cue and a marker/reward when it happens.


This is so exciting and encouraging to hear. I'm sure it is to a large degree the result of using positive motivation, as you said. But the other part is just as important to me, that muscle mass alone is not an indicator of usable strength or balance. I guess body builders would usually not do well in ballet, and dancers don't need to have huge muscles, but the right kind of muscling.
I'm thinking exercise physiology might have a lot to contribute to this topic of possible overstraining the horse, both research done on people and research done on animals. All physical conditioning is affected by the mind-body connection, for sure, but even some of the gentler forms of horse training produce equine athletes that enjoy some of their work immensely, I've seen this mostly in cowworking events like cutting and penning and in trail,working cowhorse etc. . These types of sports give the horse a more active role in making decisions independent of the rider who is regularly in the role of going along for the ride for a while. Looking at the research done in these types of performance horses might very well be applicable to horses taught for athletic performance through AND methods.
The horses are often so highly motivated engaging in these self-rewarding activities, that they can do long-term damage to their joints, and also immediate damage to their muscles, esp. in fast movements.
Classical dressage, and maybe English riding in general, seems to me to involve so much more micromanaging the horse, but that's another story and I'm probably very prejudiced about this.
Right now I'm thinking that progressing in small steps, doing things slowly first and expecting to take many years, not months, without the pressure of competition is probably the most important way to avoid injury in training horses, whether using the best of traditional horse training (dressage, NH) or using AND methods. Some people are more inclined by nature to be competitive than others and redirecting this in a constructive way (who can use the lightest touch, who has the oldest sound horse etc.) is one of the most important assignments I can think of for all of us who want AND to become the rule rather than the exception in the horse world. I would love to be a part of that as I learn more.

Exactly! Maybe I moved the discussion a bit off-topic with that.

With my adult horses I don´t worry about it that much. Yes, sometimes Titum will do about 50 rears a day, but then there are also times when he does hardly rear at all for weeks. I think he knows when it feels good to him and the fact that I don´t have much stimulus control also helps, because he knows that he can just as well offer something else if he does not feel like rearing, so there is no need to do something that does not feel good - the treat will come anyway, no matter if he offers one exercise or another (good) one. My horses aren´t that stressed in an unhappy way, because if they were, they would just stop training with me or only offer the same easy exercise all the time. Summy does get a bit hyper at times, but that´s also not the kind of stress that I consider as unhealthy... more some sort of macho stress paired with expectation.

But for a small, flexible child like Pia I do indeed worry about the long-term damage. She is young and even if I did train in a way that was damaging, I probably would not see this in her body for now. And it´s always a tightrope walk. At the moment she is totally fond of doing canter jumps next to me. I don´t consider canter jumps to be a problem for a young girl, but I already know that if I keep on rewarding them like I do now, they will end up as something like terre-à-terre. Or rears. And then I have to make a decision to stop rewarding them for now, because at 2.5 years I would NOT want her to behave like Titum and do 50 rears a day or practise Laufcourbettes. But where to set that point where you stop? That´s what I am never sure about.

But for what you have said in your post, Karen, I just totally agree with you and thanks for writing that down in such a nice and clear way!

Karen, I'm so glad you brought this up and Josepha mentioned she gets questions like this very often.
I was only on NHE for about 6-8 weeks, never got past the newcomer's forum, but I did indeed hear, at least indirectly, that the use of food is seen as controversial. Some members, including Alexander Nevzorov, clearly use it at times, others don't at all. I was told in no uncertain terms that I needed to forget EVERYTHING that I had ever learned about horses to follow NHE and my answer was that I would NEVER give up positive reinforcement, which includes the use of food, but is not limited to it. I can't remember now, but believe I pointed out at the time that I understand the potential to do harm using positive reinforcement, both physically and mentally, to either an animal or a person. Positive reinforcement is not always positive (in it's results), negative reinforcement is not always negative, it is the motivation and level of expertise and experience behind it that makes the difference. There are many examples in history where people were positively reinforced for doing the wrong thing, gradually shaped to do what is wrong and harmful to themselves and others. I don't want to discourage anyone from using all the wonderful exercises, as Karen said so well, we need to keep the horse's state of mind in focus while teaching.
Given how many people come to AND (and to NHE) having used harsh methods previously or having almost no experience with horses it does make sense to have recommendations like "do nothing for a while" or "don't ride for a while" and those have helped me to take things more slowly. For me it is the delivery (recommendation vs condition of acceptance) that is so important. Here I feel free to disagree and do differently until I'm ready to make a change.

I had the most trouble in "doing nothing". It is not in my nature to do it. I think though, had it been explained in a way that it made sense to me, I would have done it.

Carolyn Resnick's method of "doing nothing" does make sense to me as it has a meaning given to it...it has purpose - and that purpose is clearly explained. When it was first suggested to me (back at NHE), the purpose was not clearly explained (or I just didn't understand it, which is the more likely reason!). I can be a bit thick at times.

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"Ride reverently, as if each step is the axis on which the earth revolves"