The Art of Natural Dressage

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 1:23 pm 
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Location: provincie Utrecht
you right if you read her book you know her background. and understand why she have made the rituals to make things more clear for other people.
So are the books of Mark Rashid and Klaus very good. Then you understand why they are as they do. (or how do you say that in english?? jee i translate it directlu from dutch in know it is wrong but you will understand me i hope)

It makes it more easy to follow their way of teaching.

this weekend i give a clinic about how horses learn and how you can connect it with playing and teach them new things.
i shall use also some things from her. To explain people to work slow and dont hurry or push the horse.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 1:50 pm 

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Hi Inge, I haven't read any of the books by Klaus, but I can say that I really enjoyed Mark Rashid's books. My favourite is perhaps 'Horses Never Lie' but 'Life Lessons...' is also quite a good one. From what I can gather, he doesn't have a 'Method' (with a capital M) that he promotes - or at least not anything like Parelli or CR, even. But the knowledge he has learned from horses, and the way he demonstrates that and is able to explain it plainly is really helpful, I found.

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The deeper that sorrow carves into your being, the more joy you can contain. - Khalil Gibran


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 4:05 pm 
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i think you can compare Carolyn with Mark. Carolyn do not have a special method to follow. She give you some hand on.
she called it the rituals, but you have to make your own ritual. You have to do it by yourself.
for example the first ritual: sharing territory, you can sit down and read a book, or sit down and do nothing. Its your choise, she give some explaining in how to do. If you read the books from Mark you can find the same with the difference he do not give it a name.
He only discribes how his "old" teacher train the horses. It is not realy training, but let the horse know who he is and that he is not a bad human.

The "old" man did exactly the same as Carolyn does. such as the first time with the horse, sharing the territory and ask nothing from the horse. Just be there and do your own thing.
It is so nice to read all this kind of books and see how simmilar they are at the basics. Ofcourse they are different you have to be odd otherwise people don't see you anymore or say they have stolen it from eachother ;)
And it is the way you tell something and some will fit you and some don't. One person can tell it more clear then the other.
It have to suit you before you can say yes this is it for me, and then you can grow further.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 12:29 am 

Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2009 10:51 pm
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Hi everyone, new to AND so trying to catch up on all the posts - Ive been following the waterhole rituals for some time with my horses and Iove it. What I really like about her understanding of horses is that she (and Mark Rashid) stand out as really understanding the herd dynamics - so often you hear of training methods which work on the assumption that all horses want to be ALPHAS and are naturally dominent in their nature and only a very strictly enforced pecking order keeps every member in place. But from my own observations of herd behaviour and Carolyn reiterates this is that there is usually only one dominant horse accepted in the herd and although he will be harsh and 'beat up the other horses' he will always accept the authority of the lead horse, even though the lead horse will not challenge the dominent horse directly. The waterhole rituals are based on you becomming the lead horse - who is chosen for their wisdom, consistancy and for having the wellfare of the herd at heart. So for instance the taking teritory is a really important ritual to use with a dominant horse, as a lead horse will not directly challenge but sort of ambushes the dominant horse, this is how a lead horse gets respect.
The ritual of keeping your eye on me is used while the horse is eating - and is how a lead horse trains all herd members to keep watching her all the time as she is the one who decides where to go when flight is initiated and survival depends on this observation.

As already mentioned the waterhole rituals are not in themselves a training method as such but they are the training that horses do with each other, this being the case its easy to see how valuble it would be if your horse actually chooses you as it wise and trusted leader :love:


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 2:14 am 
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Let me see now. The lead horse knows how to get many things done that no other horse, not even dominants, knows how to do as well.

And apparently the lead is capable of out thinking the others at least in being herd wise.

Funny, that sounds to me very much like I would describe (possibly in different words) a decent, caring, responsible horse handler.

In addition we bring all the other things we can do that even a lead horse can't. No wonder, if we use our heads, horses will accept our lead ... until of course we mess up royally and prove that we don't have their best interests at heart.

I was laughing as I read your post because our "herd," consists of a five month old filly, her 13 year old mother, a Black Lab, my wife Kate and I and this morning Bonnie, the filly, was so full of herself that she was all over us all -- well, except the Black Lab who had the good sense to simply leave the scene and observe the nuttiness at a safe distance.

We were grooming. And of course grooming often is, in the herd, inclusive of a lot of bumping and jolly head waving, even leaning on and pushing other horses. And of course the young in the herd manage to butt in everywhere to get their share of attention.

Yep, that's what happens. But if you don't get stepped upon it's really a lot of fun.

And Bonnie got all polished up nicely too.

As for the Rituals, I can't understand why everyone isn't seriously studying herd dynamics and the culture of horse society. Heck, I wouldn't even have a housecat without studying their nature and what passes for a culture of The Tiger Kitty.

Hello Roa, and where might you be from? I'm Donald, with Bonnie and Altea, and of course Kate and Rio as herd members.

I can't wait to learn more. Your comments make clear to me that you are very likely to have a great deal of fun in AND.

Donald

_________________
Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 1:19 pm 
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hey Donald it is the ego of most people, they own horses to show. not for herd study ;) of beeing with horses, or bonded.
And most of them don't have time. Thats what i heard alsmost every day. No time......No time....
So no time te be close to the horse(s).
Today i did nothing again. just poop scoop, a little new grass (they are on a restricted field) and thats it.
take a rest for an half an our only to watch them eat. And then left to go home again.
People laugh at me when they see that. They called it wasting of time.
i can do that the whole day when posible, but i have to make some money to make the first part possible hahahaha


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 10:50 pm 
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inge wrote:
hey Donald it is the ego of most people, they own horses to show. not for herd study ;) of beeing with horses, or bonded.
And most of them don't have time. Thats what i heard alsmost every day. No time......No time....
So no time te be close to the horse(s).

"Clutter" is the word. I have lots of things I use. They look to others like clutter, yet they are not. I have lots of things I don't use, mostly old gardening magazines, and yes, that is clutter.

If magazines were living animals I'd be somewhat ashamed of myself for keeping them if I did not have the time to use them ... by being with them.

inge wrote:
Today i did nothing again. just poop scoop, a little new grass (they are on a restricted field) and thats it.
take a rest for an half an our only to watch them eat. And then left to go home again.

Do you limit turn out in the field because it's too small for their number and would get run down to dust, or is there a dietary problem that you have to limit their grass intake?
inge wrote:
People laugh at me when they see that. They called it wasting of time.
i can do that the whole day when posible, but i have to make some money to make the first part possible hahahaha


Bonnie and Altea are eating a very low nutrition hay because of Altea's insulin resistance. She must not have starches and sugars. They eat a great deal of it as a result. Lots of bulk. Want to guess what the result of that is, on the staff floor? :funny:

If they laugh at your they'd find me hilarious, because I will go out in the pasture and scoop poop. I'm rather fussy about keeping everything neat and tidy. I don't in winter, and if the weather is really hot the manure dries so quickly in the open that there's little point in picking it up unless there is an accumulation somewhere.

I've mentioned here before that I find cleaning up after horses a kind of mediation. It's also a powerful memory stimulant for an old geezer like me. It takes me back to my first professional work with horses ... well, one end of horses at any rate. ;) :)

At times I can see the horses I cleaned up after in my mind. Wonderful memories too. These were mostly the same ones that in time I came to ride first as an exercise boy, then handle as trainer (assistant trainer actually). We still, all of us, even the head trainer, scooped poop routinely. Rich owners weren't interested in who picked it up, only that it was picked up and the grounds kept pretty.

Whenever I owned my own stable no matter that I had people working for me, I still scooped.

I think it tends to keep the nature of our relationship to these sweet wonderful creatures on the correct viewpoint, and helps to deal with runaway egos. I had very rich clients at times, students, people I was coaching, etc. and I insisted that they scoop along with everyone else. And those that didn't want to left.

I rather liked that method of culling out the deadwood, because they inevitably, as you mention earlier had horses entirely for making them look good.

I'll keep on scooping, recalling, and remembering my rightful place with the horse, so that I don't forget it is they, not I who is giving the most. Even their very freedom I, as a human, have taken away.

Donald

_________________
Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 2:53 pm 
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Donald Redux wrote:
Do you limit turn out in the field because it's too small for their number and would get run down to dust, or is there a dietary problem that you have to limit their grass intake?


no they have a huge field, way to much for both of them. But they get to fat :green: To prefent that they over eaten themselfs
i give them each day some grass. So they think they get something new to eat. Tho they have still enough ;) :)

yes poop scooping give some time to think ;) i dont hate it. And it give some more then only a clean field.
Less of worms, so i dont have to deworm that much. And less of those horrbile flies. The high season is now started.
each day i see more :sad:


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 4:53 pm 

Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2009 4:27 pm
Posts: 483
Location: Corneto di Toano, Italy
Hi there,

I have not read or seen anything from C. Resnick, but I tried to read through all the posts here, so I learned a lot about it in very little time :smile:

It seems to me very common to the way Cynthia Royal goes about horses.
(Funny how they have exactly the same initials - there must be a connection somehow ;) )
I 'discovered' her thanks to a post on this forum and she immediately got me hooked on.
We have been in relatively close contact for awhile. See some quotes of her mails to me below.
These rituals from C. Resnick have a different name sometimes, but basically they mean almost the same thing.
I got her aware of the AND-forum as I am sure we are all souls looking for a similar way to be with our horses.

I have worked a bit with Cynthia's techniques and have major results, especially with my lead horse.
Because of my health and the bad weather here recently (the latter having a major -negative- influence on the first), I have not been able to 'work' very much with my horses. But I try to keep the pasture clean and that is the main 'work' I do with them very regularly. You can include a lot of exercises when picking up the poop :yes:

For those who might be interested to compare, I quote part of Cynthia's last mail (last month) to me :
"We are opening a new school “The Royal Academy” to teach our ways to the world. It will be done primarily through the internet, via live and pre-recorded video broadcasts, member forum in which I participate, regular teleconferences and video webinars. However, I also will be doing private video and telephone coaching. I also plan to come to Europe, among other places, to give clinics and workshops. Maybe this is something you can indeed help me facilitate, by finding a nice indoor facility that will have us. Also, a new website is going to be up regarding this to explain it all around the end of the month."

and from last May:
"So you can help us spread the word, we will be creating a more detailed set of videos this summer utilizing multiple completely wild and untrained horses from a herd we rescued (http://www.PegasusRising.org ). Also, due to the lack of real training out there that really gives you the “How To” techniques AND demonstrates it on numerous horses, we are opening a very affordable virtual internet based “Royal Academy” (to be hosted at http://www.IMAGINE-DiscoverTheMagic.com ) in the next 30 days that will only cost a few dollars monthly (exact price T.B.D. but will be $20 U.s. or less). It will feature our own “television-like” video channel, with live webcasts of our training approach (where viewers can text or call questions in to be answered live on air), a forum for members to share their learnings and hear from us, audio interviews, training video archive, newsletters and continual tips and teachings direct from us and the opportunity to become an approved “Royal Practitioner” or “Royal Trainer”. So hopefully this will also aid you in your thirst for knowledge of how horses think, act and how we can best suit THEIR needs so they help fulfill OURS :-)"

Inge,
We will meet at the AND-meeting in August.
Can you bring some material of C. Resnick, I will bring the 2 DVD's from Cynthia, maybe we will have time to compare?

As mentioned also by Jess and a few others in these posts, you can learn from each one of these people and you will develop into your own way of handling horses, taking every single horse's nature into account.
We can only get better and our horses happier :love:

_________________
Kind regards,

AnneMarie

------
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make'em drink...


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 6:12 pm 
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inge wrote:
Donald Redux wrote:
Do you limit turn out in the field because it's too small for their number and would get run down to dust, or is there a dietary problem that you have to limit their grass intake?


no they have a huge field, way to much for both of them. But they get to fat :green: To prefent that they over eaten themselfs


You probably know about the dangers of too fat horses. My Insulin Resistant(Like Human Type II Diabetes) mare, mostly Andalusian, quarter Arabian -- who both seem to be prone to this, has the same problem. She was foundered before we got her apparently, had a case of laminitis, with the usual ringed appearance and splayed hooves, with a large outer horn separation from the sole with a wide whiteline. Lame on all four and extremely tender on her sole.

It too me the better part of a year to slim her to a safe weight. Constant problem. That's why I feed her four meals a day (her supplements are expensive and bulky but don't fatten her). And of course I can't let her graze freely as I can her little daughter, Bonnie.

inge wrote:

i give them each day some grass. So they think they get something new to eat. Tho they have still enough ;) :)

Ah, another sneaky human, I see. ;)
inge wrote:

yes poop scooping give some time to think ;) i dont hate it. And it give some more then only a clean field.
Less of worms, so i dont have to deworm that much. And less of those horrbile flies. The high season is now started.
each day i see more :sad:


Altea had been out for about half a year in a long time horse pasture, with another horse pasture beside that one when I brought her to another place where sheep had been housed, and where another horse had lived. Yet with my habit of constant cleaning of manure when I had a parasite scan of her droppings by the vet she was clean.

I haven't had to worm her yet, though we did a safety worm right after she gave birth, just in case they missed anything on the fecal scan.

As for flies...oh my goodness, what a horror some can be. We have the common horsefly (that looks like a housefly, and serves as one as well as plaguing horses) pretty much under control. We are using the predator flies on a monthly program, and though it's odd to see this cloud of very tiny little flies over the manure, they do not bother horses or humans and just seek out the fly larvae and lay their own eggs inside to consume the larvae when the predator larvae hatches. Kind of a neat trick and very environmentally safe, I think.

Problem is we have the vicious saw toothed deer fly (literally, they saw a wound open to lick, lap up, the horses' -- or your -- blood) and the big black kind of fuzzy looking Horsefly. Those breed along the edges of ponds, lakes, and streams, and their larvae finish their development in the water, or the mud along the edges.

These are nasty things. And soon I'm going to build a trap for them. But in the meantime they do give our horses a lot of annoying exercise.

The deer fly can land so lightly neither the horse, nor human, can feel it until it's too late and they have drawn blood. I keep thinking I want one of those farmer's smocks (old European style) with baggy loose pleated body and puffy arms that will keep the blood sucker flies off me. We do face mask Altea, but poor little Bonnie won't hear of having anything wrapped around her head, so she has to rub the flies off, usually on her mom, occasionally on a tree or tree branches, or of course, on ME. Argh!

I carry a fly swatter much of the time, and both Bonnie and Altea have learned to be hit quite hard (Bonnie is especially good about this, if you can imagine) with it to kill the flies on them. Both will even take swatter hits to the face to get rid of the nasty things.

Hope your flies are not so bad there. But then there's poor Freckles and his buddies with Glen in S. Africa. I hear they have really really nasty flies there including the Tsetse(sp). Yuk!

Here's some of mine:

Image

Gorgeous, isn't she? See that little saw, the lower jaw, sticking out there?

Image

The above pic tends to be the view I get most as they land on the horses. This is a big big fly, often hear an inch long.

Here's what they do:

http://www.enature.com/fieldguides/detail.asp?recNum=IS0073

"Family: Tabanidae, Horse and Deer Flies view all from this family

Description 3/4-1 1/8" (20-28 mm). Jet black. Thorax has fine whitish, yellowish, or black hair. Abdomen has bluish luster. Hind tibiae do not have spurs. Wings are brownish to black, unpatterned. Larva is white with black bands.

Warning This horse fly lands on its victim's neck, head, or back, quickly slices the skin with its bladelike mouthparts, and sucks out blood. Some animals become seriously weakened if they suffer repeated attacks and loss of blood.

Food Male drinks honeydew and nectar; female sucks blood from large mammals, especially cattle, horses, mules, and hogs. Larva preys on small aquatic insects.

Life Cycle Female attaches egg masses to plants overhanging fresh water. Larvae drop into water, feed, and then overwinter in mud for 2 winters, pupating in spring. Males have very short life-spans; females survive until fall.

Habitat Meadows and open grasslands, near marshy areas or slow streams.

Range Quebec south to Florida and Gulf states, west to New Mexico, north to Pacific Northwest."

This is most definitely one of those, "The Female is deadlier than the Male," instances.

Donald

_________________
Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:15 pm 
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When I was at Paul's earlier this month, we witnessed a really nice little capriole, thanks to a horse fly. :D

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:30 pm 
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Karen wrote:
When I was at Paul's earlier this month, we witnessed a really nice little capriole, thanks to a horse fly. :D


Oh, so that's why Bonnie does those.

Actually much more than the flies the fly spray (of which I manage to get a few drops of mist on) seems to drive her to extravagant Haute Ecole.

Yesterday she got very wet when I was washing and cooling Altea in our 90f plus degree heat (I suppose I did accidently ;) lose control of the spray direction) and you should have seen her fits. She was about as insulted and upset as I've ever seen here. You'd think I had publicly denigrated the Royal Family.

It will be hot today too. I think I'll just get careless again when Altea takes her cool down this afternoon.

:funny:

Donald

_________________
Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:53 pm 
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Location: Quebec, Canada
I just noticed that there was this post. :applause: :applause: :applause:
I'm also registered to Carolyn's Inside Circle Program which is amazing (for me anyways).
LIke others have said though, it's not a training method but a program to develop the relationship. Once the relationship is there, the program "SHOULD" be so much easier.

I started a few weeks ago and already, Corado, my TB understands me more in these past weeks than the 3 years before I introduced (myself) to Carolyn's program.

I can now ask him to walk, stop (more easily), show him direction, lying down (my video is posted under Corado), and playing with the ball (another video). Of course he doesn't always want to be with me (who does :funny: ) so that's ok, he has a choice and I respect that. I'll do something else (like put all my attention on Magik).
JUst yesterday, I decided to ask for go trot and since he's pretty hyper by nature, it didn't take much and the first time I started walking backwards, there he was trotting towards me. After doing it twice, I decided to go back to the shelter, he amazingly followed me at my side just like two buddies walking back home. What a feeling.


Just a small note: For those comparing Parelli and Carolyn Resnick method's, in my opinion, they are completely different.

I guess (like Carolyn says) if it works for you, do it. I also continue with my c.t. as my training method and Carolyn's program to develop a stronger bond and relationship. They go together.

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Jocelyne
[Hug your animals everyday. You never know!


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 7:19 pm 

Joined: Tue May 19, 2009 8:29 pm
Posts: 233
Location: Kuusamo, Finland
i have a waterholes ritual question that i wonder if you can answer.

When doing the first ritual of sitting with the horse do you do this with mutiple horses or just one at a time? I beleive Carolyn talks about doing this in the horses paddock but if you have several horses would you separate them for this so that they understand it is their time to be with you or just do the whole lot together?

I ask becasue I am planning to spend some time sitting with my horses and including my daughter (3 year old) in this doing mother and daughter time together, reading a book talking etc at the same time, as I want to teach her how to be quiet around them and move them off her gently not shouting or trying to push them around and them to respect her space before we move on to other things like approaching the horse and touching all over.

I wondered if anyone had experenices where one horse, a submissive one, was afraid to come to you when sitting as the other more dominant ones would chase it off out of jellousy? I want this to be a calm and bonding experience for all with no fears or worries involved for anyone.

Any thoughts, experiences and ideas very welcome.

Heather


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 7:23 pm 
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Location: provincie Utrecht
ha now i know who you are :D liked the videos.
but non members can't see it. ;)

you are right you can not compare parelli and her. completly different
nice to know you are here too


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