The Art of Natural Dressage

I just recently joined another forum - norwegian one - wich is about chlassical dressage (not the competition one but the more "spanish/baroque" one). I believed it would be nice as they also claim to have a more "soft/kind" approach to the riding....

But now my biggest question is:

WHY DO PEOPLE THINK IT IS IMPORTANT TO RIDE THE HORSE TO THE BIT - TO GET THE HORSE TO ACCEPT THE BIT?

I mean - why in the world do people think the bits are important and that the horse should go "to" the bit????

I really wonder - I hope some of you have a good explanation.....


(I also have to tell this forum I feel are describing the riding I used to do before - not the one I started to learn last summer where tha teatcher was very kind and very positive to my way as well.... The seat they are describng seems to me like the seat I used to have and strive for - the demanding seat. And the way of riding more like the one I used to do before - not after starting with my own horses).

Hi Kirsti,

as this question (or similar ones) are asked here quite often, we have collected the links to those discussions and opened an announcement in the RM section where those links (and others) are collected. Maybe you will find something helpful in one of them?

Relaxation of the jaw
Ramener: Relaxing the poll?
Collection and relaxation of the jaw and poll
Connection - bitless
Reins - why or why not?

Warm Regards,
Romy

Kirsti,
those people don't think , they just do it because so....

Yes Inge.... guess that is just the reason....

And thank you Romy for the links - I have read some of them and will read more... And I am very very much agreeing with the AND-people as far as I have read..... (Of course i knew that before as well - but I really wondered why "they" think the bit is so nessesrry - or why the horse have to "accept" it...). I have no good answers yet...

Kirsti,

Each of us view the universe, or world, from our own unique perspective. No one else sees it precisely as we do, nor we the way another does.

That said, it's a very lonely place to be. While we may not think of it consciously we long to have others agree with us. That is we pretend along with them we all see some issue the same.

In the end this creates factions that war with each other on some level or another.

And stifles independent thought and experimentation. Note that some of histories great discovers were made by those that did NOT think like or agree with those around them. Some paid with their freedom, some with their life.

Thus, a notion that is faulty, or questionable, can still be carried forward for centuries by those that need each other to perpetuate a group viewpoint.

I say this in preamble to answering your question about "bits," and going to them, accepting them, etc. by the horse.

And the agreed upon concept those folks have?

That horse's must be coerced.

And accepting steel in their mouths and eagerly seeking the steel indicates the horse has capitulated. Has surrendered control to the human. And will go and do anything their are physically capable of at the bidding of the human.

If you go back to the founding of AND, consider the philosophy, and the motivation to create AND, it is apparent that this too is a group with some desire to find agreement

But also a desire to find a way to explore even conflicting "notions" about the horse without suppressing each other. Rather unique, isn't it?

It's why I took acception to another Donald's presentation of himself here in the way he did. It was a direct attack, in my view, on the very unique principle of the founding of AND that I refer to above.

And attempt to factionalize us. That he failed so quickly and decisively was proof enough that AND is at this time quite solid in its foundation and formation and structure and processes of organization.

No one here asks you to accept their view uncritically and surrender your own view, though at times we have minor squabbles that quickly resolve themselves almost before the incident can even be identified as disagreement.

Certain themes appear to be universal here however. One is the some general agreement on coercion and a desire to avoid it with our horses.

We don't want compliance to the point that the horse is made to appear to accept our coercion willingly.

That is the essence I think of your question. And your confusion about why some do want that compliance and a veneer of horse acceptance in "going to the bit."

All that proves is that horses, generally speaking, either were, or have been bred over the centuries to be highly tolerant of pressure.

But now and then a horse comes along that shows their limit has been reached. I believe Josepha has just such an example.

Horses such as her's show exactly where coercion points. We may get away with it, but then potential, the ethics, the morality involved tell the independent thinking person that this is not acceptable.

It is fascism.

A coarse rough word that some might accuse me of using to sensationalize this issue of coercing the horse, but I stick to it.

I see it in the orthodox Dressage arena. The horse tolerates the most grotesque disfiguration (from my point of view). While here in and we see photos of young horses in collection, yet with their heads and neck free to extend or retract as needed moving over the ground and staying in balance.

It is fascism to force that same young horse to travel with his nose tucked in, against the steel in his mouth, straining to move over the ground unable to shift his body posture to balance himself. He must instead strain in the attempt to accommodate MY power over him, my coercion of him.

I speak from years of making horses accommodate me as a professional in training and showing, and even teach others to.

My only saving grace from those times is that I had almost from the start began moving to more freedom for the horse. And that I taught that same concept to my students, or those I coached.

I think you pushed my buttons, no?

This is subject the underlies so much for me with horses, and why I left for so long, and why I have returned. I guess I'm testing myself to see if I really meant it when I tried to find an egalitarian way of being with the horse.

AND may hold the answer for me. If I have the wit to find it, and the strength to step away from equine fascism.

Donald

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Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.

Actually it's quite logical when you use a bit, to ride the horse to the bit. Almost every method that uses the bit, is built on the fact that first you should have to horse accept the bit before you can work with this as a tool. If the horse tugs in his nose every time you pick up the reins and that way he automatically puts the slack in the reins again, you have a horse who is behind the bit all the time, is extremely light in your hand but can't respond to your rein-cues.

It's the same when driving a carriage; the first thing when teaching a horse to go in front of a carriage, is to teach him to pull into the ropes and not step back. If he steps back, not only will the carriage itself be out of control as there is no pull and therefore no direction anymore, but also your reins will immediately hang through an you will have lost all control with it.

Whatever tool you use, you first need to strike an agreement with the horse about how you two will use it. Teaching a horse to accept the contact with the bit is the same as teaching the horse to accept touches from the whip.

Why are bits important? Why are reins important? Why is a cordeo important? Why is a whip? Why is a foodreward?
If your method uses something as a tool to train the horse, then it's important to first learn how to use that tool right. You teach your horse to accept pressure through the bit or the cordeo, you teach him not to run away from the whip and you teach him not to eat you when you carry treats.

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New horse book: Mandala horses!

Never stop making mistakes! Natural Dressage

But I think you can get this without a bit...coercion doesn't dwell in the bit itself, but rather, in the base relationship between horse and rider. In that regard, I don't even view the bit itself as a symbol of that coercion. As you say Donald, horses are bred to be easily coerced. It doesn't take much. It has long been in the nature of many people to conquer what we can...to control what we can. I don't see myself as being at all removed from the realm of coercion simply because I don't use a bit. My best friend who I ride with all the time, uses bits. She seeks the balanced relationship and seeks (and GETS) affection and comraderie from her horses in the very same way I do. She chooses to find her way WITH a bit, I choose to find mine without. But we are very, very equal in what we do with our horses.



This is SO true. I can just as easily rollkur Tam with a light cavesson because I have taught him to be light and he trusts me to put his head where I ask him to put it - he does not know that it may be unhealthy for him. With very little effort he would just as gladly do it in a cordeo or at liberty.

By accepting a treat from my hand, my horse is capitulating. In my mind I am no fascist. But others may view me as such simply because I asked my horse to do something to get that treat.

So in fact, maybe I am a fascist in a sense. It will depend entirely on who you ask. Or perhaps I am symbolic of a corrupt government because I control the resources entirely and I rule through bribery.

But in case my dearest, bit-using friend comes here to read, I wish her to know that if she is a fascist, then so am I.

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"Ride reverently, as if each step is the axis on which the earth revolves"

For me, if the use of a bit is fascism, then so is the use of reins, awhip, foodrewards, the cordeo and a hoofpick.

If your definition of fascism is to coerce the other into doing something that he doesn't want to do, then you can use the entire list above to enable that. With a carrot you can lure your horse into a deeper stretch than he is physically able to do right now, with a hoofpick you can hit him on his leg if he puts his foot down too soon.

Just the fact that you can use something in a bad way, doesn't make the item itself bad. When I look at the classical riders who are my examples of some sort - yes, I wonder what they would do if they would be riding without tack at all - but I still admire the way they use all those powerful tools in such a way that the harm is diminished.

Of course bits and reins restrict the head movements of the horse. But it's the rider who has the final call in that: if he is able to give more space as soon as the horse wants more freedom with his neck, then I will applaud him!

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New horse book: Mandala horses!

Never stop making mistakes! Natural Dressage

And as has been said before...better to explore, discuss and contemplate what is RIGHT than what we each feel is WRONG. The more we discuss what is wrong in the world, the more our energies turn dark and depressing and we will all the more attract that negativity. The more we discuss what is right, the more we feel capable of flying - that anything is possible.

So lets not discuss fascists. Lets discuss the good work done in the world that helps us all feel certain that change is rolling steadily forward...and it is because we believe it is...and with our belief we live what we dream! It is the power of positive thinking. So please let us focus there?

We have so many amazing and wonderful things we need to discuss! Lets get busy!

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"Ride reverently, as if each step is the axis on which the earth revolves"

Karen and Miriam. Thought provoking words! Wild applause! Now I have a big smile on my face, and am walking out the door to go do something useful with my horses.. whistling "Whistle while you work! Twee twee twee twee twee twee twee......" I find that too much time spent discussing the world outside of me leaves me too little time for my own experiments in living the example I want to be for the beings around me. A nice reminder!

Sue

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I have not sought the horse of bits, bridles, saddles and shackles,
But the horse of the wind, the horse of freedom, the horse of the dream. [Robert Vavra]

oH.. but before I go.. on the subject of Why do "they" believe differently to me?" I can't resist adding this! .. I'm reminded of Edward de Bono's story of the man who painted one side of his car white and the other side black. He said it was so that when he was in an accident, he could enjoy the entertainment of listening to the witness in court swearing that it was a black car, no a white car! Depending on their Point of View.

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I have not sought the horse of bits, bridles, saddles and shackles,

But the horse of the wind, the horse of freedom, the horse of the dream. [Robert Vavra]

The 'correct' method of 'use of the bit' is a highly skilled art!

To have the contact which is a two way contact is of the finest art and capacity of both horse and rider. Only a very skilled rider can place the head and neck wherever they want with a feeling contact; they must have an independant seat and be balanced and educated and be as astute about how they use their body and mind as a high class gymnast.

Mostly, it is such a norm that a/the bit is hardly questioned; it is the way! NHE and AND are cutting edge in this regard.

Mostly, out of lack of a developed enough skill or through total abject ignorance the bit is largely, mostly and commonly abused and then it becomes a dictatorial relationship of rider to horse rather than a relationship of communication and skill.

An educated rider of the highest level will read what is possible and only step forwards and back around that boundary; stretching the comfort zone and returning again. How many horsemen/women have that degree of skill??????

Rolkur methods are dictatorial by virtue of the intention behind what is being achieved. You will find Rolkur in competition training but it has no place in classical training - in my view... ever! Competition training and classical dressage are increasingly oceans apart - even if that was not the intitial intention.

So why did they believe that the world was flat or that the world was created in 7 days or that all heavenly bodies rotated around the earth - because the information wasn't out there yet. Some people still believe that and for me, if it doesn't hurt, then why not!

For me though, unless one is that highly skilled, responsible, educated rider who works with empathy, understanding and compassion then it does hurt the horse and I do not agree with that. When I was riding traditionally, I always took it very seriously, my responsibility to have the best possible hands and seat and I am guilty of having been ignorant of all manner of things.

I do like the idea of showing that there is an alternative to a bit. And even if others do not want to follow this path then it may have a positive benefit in self-reflection of how one goes about training a horse and what one expects, demands, requires.......

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To put down everything I think I know about horses and to listen!