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 Post subject: Re: What do you reward?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 5:40 pm 
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I would say everything as well, but also qualified. I don't have training/no training time - if I see something that I would like to see more of, I will reward it, either with a thank you, a scratch or a treat. I only get to spend an hour and a half with my horse every day - I feel that's too short a time for me to divide into training sessions. For example, the first time I brought him into the school and he went to roll, I clicked and jackpotted him - I have always wanted to find a way to show him I would sometimes like to ask him to lie down and this seemed to be it! It is not a totally successful story (due to my own carelessness) but he will occasionally lie down now when I cue with pawing.

Jackson occasionally tells me he needs a treat. This worried me a little at first, because when he came and I started training, he was a young horse who'd never been fed by hand, and would sometimes take a bit of hand as well as treat. He learned to be gentle very quickly, but I worried that I would be encouraging pushiness around food if he seemed to be calling the shots. Then, over time, I relaxed and realised that if he stopped when I was riding and turned his head to me, I had probably inadvertently signalled that he'd done something good and a treat was coming. Given that, I reckoned it was very impolite of me to say no - so now if he asks, he gets. He has remained very polite around food, so I don't see it as a problem. He does occasionally give me a head threat while training, but again it's a frustration caused by my bad timing/low rate of reinforcement, so I usually ask him to do something quick and easy so I can offer a treat (and an apology).


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 Post subject: Re: What do you reward?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 1:16 am 
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Quote:
...but I can´t really imagine how rewarding everything could possibly work for us? Or maybe I am misunderstanding you here?
Sorry Romy, I must have misunderstood. I thought you were just asking what we do, not what you should do.

At the moment I am trying to move closer to rewarding everything that Sunrise offers (except that which might be dangerous or aggressive), because as I said, I think I'm just at the stage of building confidence as Brenda remarked about her walks outside with Lucy, except I'm trying to build confidence during training lessons. Later I will want to move on to raising my criteria, and selecting which particular responses to reinforce. But right now, anything goes. And it's working really well so far to improve Sunrise's motivation and experimentation. :)

You and Titum, as I understand it, are already WAY past this phase: He is motivated, he trusts you in training and play, and he's totally confident to experiment. So of course, this "Baby" stage of rewarding everything that I am doing would not work for you and him. :)

Sue

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 Post subject: Re: What do you reward?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 6:47 am 
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Hi Sue,

windhorsesue wrote:
Sorry Romy, I must have misunderstood. I thought you were just asking what we do, not what you should do.

no, you didn´t misunderstand, but of course when I read something in this forum, I try to see how this could relate to our own situation so that I can pick out things that could be helpful for us. Thanks very much for your reply, that makes some things much clearer for me! :smile:

Warm Regards,
Romy


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 Post subject: Re: What do you reward?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 5:23 pm 
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Sue wrote:
Quote:
At the moment I am trying to move closer to rewarding everything that Sunrise offers (except that which might be dangerous or aggressive), because as I said, I think I'm just at the stage of building confidence as Brenda remarked about her walks outside with Lucy, except I'm trying to build confidence during training lessons. Later I will want to move on to raising my criteria, and selecting which particular responses to reinforce. But right now, anything goes. And it's working really well so far to improve Sunrise's motivation and experimentation.


Yes! That's what we're working towards, too.

And for us, it's about me loosening up as well, shifting any lingering "you must perform for me" expectations left over from traditional training.

Bottom line, right now, the goal is for everything to feel like play, like a party. I'm trying to build confidence and engagement.

:)

Leigh

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 Post subject: Re: What do you reward?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 1:18 am 
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And for us, it's about me loosening up as well, shifting any lingering "you must perform for me" expectations left over from traditional training.
Oh, yes, me too, absolutely! This is exactly what is helping Sunrise to grow in confidence... my transformation into an easy going, easily pleased mama....(which isn't always smooth.)

SUe

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 Post subject: Re: What do you reward?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 11:44 pm 
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Great question!

For my training, answering with 'everything' doesn't quite cover it if you take it literally either, because there are quite a few things that I don't reward for (like kicking the other pony during training 8) ).

But I think my answer would come close to it, in that I turn everything into something that I can reward for.

So for example when Blacky turns towards me while rearing, I will ask him to move his shoulder away from me and then immediately reward for it. Or when Sjors bumps into me, I will ask him to step back and reward for how he handled that correction (and then see that as an invitation to focus that training session more on moving away from me in all shapes so that he realises that he can go further away and still be rewarded as well).

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 Post subject: Re: What do you reward?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 5:26 am 
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This is interesting Miriam, in that as your horses become really proficient in so many things, you don't just reward less as you raise your criteria, but find more things to reward for as you become more particular. I really like the way you turn corrections into an opportunity for reward, and a starting point for the direction of training. :)

So, I'm wondering, how would you handle it when you ask Blacky for an exercise, and he performs it, but at a lower standard than what you know he's capable of. Do you withhold the reward and ask him to perform it again better, so thereby only reward for attempts that meet your criteria, or do you still reward any attempt he makes, and use other methods to encourage him to excellence?
In some CT lit I'm hearing that in later stages of training, as criteria is raised or new criteria added, it's neccessary to make decisions about WHICH attempts to reinforce. I'm wondering if it's possible to raise standards without doing this?
Cheers, Sue

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I have not sought the horse of bits, bridles, saddles and shackles,

But the horse of the wind, the horse of freedom, the horse of the dream. [Robert Vavra]


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 Post subject: Re: What do you reward?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 6:05 am 
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This is a great conversation!

Two thoughts:

First, I flippantly say "everything" which is basically true but also not completely accurate.
8) :)

If I get a half-hearted response to a request, I'll reward it if it feels to me as if it's a tentative "is this what you were asking for?" effort. And I'll usually reward this even if it wasn't what I was asking for -- we're still at a point where we're figuring out that everything can be a fun game. These rewards generally happen as we begin to focus -- maybe at the beginning of our session, or when we're shifting into a different activity, etc.

I don't reward if I get a half-hearted response when we're in the rhythm of the activity -- especially if it's a vague effort and their focus is more on the treat potential than the exercise. I'll verbally praise them, but ask for it again and reward with a treat for the next good try. (I don't ever say "no" unless they're actively doing something I don't want them to do.) If it's not up to par, I'll say "let's do it for real!" and if it's not what I asked for when I'm really trying to work for something more focused (usually I get a leg lift, which is the default still for us), I'll grin at them and say, "that was really lovely, but I'd really like you to do...."

I'm also, I'm realizing as I'm writing this, inclined to grant more leeway with all of this with Stardust than with Circe. He shuts down so quickly if he feels like he's gotten it wrong that I try really hard not to set him up to feel that way. (Much less of an issue, generally, with Circe -- though she does have her moments of insecurity, too, in which case she gets a serious cheerleading session!) :)

So, there's a lot of flexibility in our rewards interaction. A lot of it is how I'm reading their energy and focus -- if they are really tuned in and trying, I'm loading treats like a pez dispenser on speed :green: ...if they are distracted, sometimes I'll up the treats to pull their attention to me, and sometimes I'll slow them down to get them to remember that we're actually doing something! :)

Second thing, from Sue's diary earlier tonight:
Quote:
So I would define being generous with treats carefully.. it's not just giving them indiscriminately, and at the wrong moment.

Being generous, to me, is

Making it a habit to find or set up a multitude of situations that can make your horses look successful, so that you may reward them lavishly for their brilliance!


I think this is a great distinction. I give generously, and don't always ask for something before I give treats, especially if we're just goofing around without a lot of focus. I shift the rhythms fairly consciously. A lot of what we're doing is still very much about experimenting.

But underlying everything is defining as many things as we can as success right now. Lots and lots and lots of positive this is SO fun! energy.

For me, the emotional psychology is the most important part, rather than carefully organized patterns. We may refine this and get more disciplined as we get more experienced, but I'm guessing that we'll always be a bit more fluid than some folks here who have an innate level of organization and discipline that I don't have! :green:

Best,
Leigh

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 Post subject: Re: What do you reward?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 9:44 am 
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windhorsesue wrote:
In some CT lit I'm hearing that in later stages of training, as criteria is raised or new criteria added, it's neccessary to make decisions about WHICH attempts to reinforce. I'm wondering if it's possible to raise standards without doing this?
Cheers, Sue


Hi Sue and all!

I think the concept that you are trying to explain is Differential Reinforcement (DR), or selectively reinforcing one behavior or a group of behaviors. And in doing that you end up extinguishing others along the way. So as you shape up the criteria ladder, you reinforce 'better' responses and eventually extinguish 'lesser' responses. So at some point in the shaping process, step one (or 2 or 3) is no longer reinforced cuz you have progressed to step 4, 5, or 6, on your way to step 10.

There are MANY types of DR, some focus on increasing behaviors, others focus on decreasing a behavior by reinforcing something else!! And most of us are doing this when we train, you just might not have had a name for it!!

DR of an INCOMPATIBLE (DRI) behavior is very useful, i.e teach a horse head down in place of mugging, he can't simultaneously do both! So while you are increasing head down, you are decreasing mugging.

DR of Low Rate Behavior (DRO) would be reinforcing after a certain time interval only if the animal did NOT mug, so reinforce after 5 seconds of NOT mugging.

DR of an Alternative (DRA) behvavior is reinforcing ANYTHING BUT a particular behavior, so reinforce a dog for ANYTHING other than aggressing at another dog.

Si in addition in INCREASING wanted behaviors, these variations of DR are some of the best options to DECREASING an unwanted behavior, instead of the traditional punishment approach.

Brenda

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 Post subject: Re: What do you reward?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 2:02 pm 
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windhorsesue wrote:
So, I'm wondering, how would you handle it when you ask Blacky for an exercise, and he performs it, but at a lower standard than what you know he's capable of. Do you withhold the reward and ask him to perform it again better, so thereby only reward for attempts that meet your criteria, or do you still reward any attempt he makes, and use other methods to encourage him to excellence?
In some CT lit I'm hearing that in later stages of training, as criteria is raised or new criteria added, it's neccessary to make decisions about WHICH attempts to reinforce. I'm wondering if it's possible to raise standards without doing this?


Great question! The funny thing is that I don't really know the answer on how we do it either. 8)
I only rarely decide to not reward stage 1 anymore because now we're at stage 2. Now I come to think of it, in all honesty I'm probably 99% of the time not differentiating between reward-no reward.
As I'm such a big softy who just loves to reward, I only differentiate by giving huge jackpots next to the regular rewards when Blacky or Sjors is doing something new or better. I still also reward all the old style attempts, but the improved version gets the big ones. The good thing about that is that I never have to consciously stop rewarding a version as the ponies themselves just extinguish that completely for the more profitable behavior. 8)

This is actually quite interesting, because I've wondered quite a lot how on earth the ponies were teaching themselves all the improvements all the time, when I never stopped rewarding the old attempts.... :blush: :green:

I guess that when Blacky or Sjors does something on a really too low level (for examply bow really shallow), then I'll just ask him to make a transition from that not-good-enough bow to piaffe and then reward for that transition or new exercise. But there's no moment of silence where there consciously is no reward or something like that.
So I guess that instead of saying with a big 'no reward'-pause, 'do it over' cue or vocal correction, I just let the ponies compare their behavior themselves: 'this piaffe I tried better than that bow, that's why the piaffe was the one that earned the reward'.

By the way, about two weeks ago I actually started to differentiate actively in order to teach Blacky to stay longer in the levade: I give him the cue for levade with my bodylanguage +voice and hold that pose myself, also when Blacky already lands again in order to ask him to go up again in the levade, after which of course I reward big time.
Maybe it's just in my head, but here too it also feels more like I'm extending the old exercise, than that I consciously stop rewarding an older version. Because if Blacky would just land and not go up again even though I asked for it, I would still cuddle him for his attempts, or turn the levade into fun again by letting him chase me through the paddock out of the levade rear.

Maybe I'm not that good in making straightforward decisions on what not to reward, because my main goal isn't perfectioning the exercises as quick as possible (although there are advantages in that too). My main goal is to keep the ponies enthusiastic about every movement and have them really enjoy it all, and also to keep a certain freedom for them to experiment in older ('less good') movements as well. For example, when I taught Blacky to rear, he started with a very low forwards hop, and I was trying to teach him to rear up higher into a real pesade, standing in one spot. However, I also kept rewarding (not jackpots but regular treats) for the lower rears, and the ones that weren't in one place but in which Blacky took a step forwards or backwards. Out of all those so called faulty pesades, Blacky now has developed the levade (out of too low rears), the laufcourbette (from those steps forwards or backwards during the rear) and the terre a terre (jumping forwards in the rear).

I think that if I had carefully fenced off the real pesade by not rewarding for all the lesser attempts, I probably wouldn't have been able to teach him all those pesade-varieties this easy, because Blacky would have been taught that there was only one good rear in the first place. So I like to keep the boundaries open by just rewarding as much as I can, for good and bad attempts and just differentiate in the amount or quality of the reward. It also diminishes the risk of the ponies going over their physical limits in order to get that reward, because with two half attempts within their limits they earn just as much rewards, ;) and if they choose for that option, I know that I shouldn't go there for now.

However, I do think it might be good to start clickertraining/reward training with more fixed borders or reward-no reward untill your horse has learned the basic rules of training like this. And then you can just reward as much as you want. 8)

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