The Art of Natural Dressage

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 9:40 pm 
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Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 1:13 am
Posts: 31
Location: Hüllhorst, Germany
Miriam wrote:
How interesting, Werner!

Thank you very much!

Miriam wrote:
Just a quick question, I saw your on-line magazine is called pferdezeitung.com and I read somewhere in your posts that it has been on-line for ten years now - is it possible that this is the same as the pferdezeitung.de magazine?

Well, yes and no. I started to recall the whole story, but that's nothing of general interest. I started the project in January 1999 together with somebody else, I own pferdezeitung.com, she owns pferdezeitung.de, and she decided to break in August 2001. If you test pferdezeitung.de today, you will be forwarded to her personal site.

Miriam wrote:
I've been a member of that for quite a few years actually, and loved the scope of articles that was posted there, both on nh and classical dressage and all kinds of interesting German trainers.

If that is so; then a belated thank you for having inspired me for quite a few years! :D

Again, it may be so or not, it just depends on which time span you refer to. Until edition 135, most of the articles are by Sylvia Frevert. I really appreciated her style of writing and would have liked to keep them online, but she opposed that and got a court ruling to this end. When she initiated her personal site, I offered her to recover the old articles in order to back up her professional reputation and she replied she would think about it, but she put me down again.

My style of writing is much drier and not that much appealing, but certainly I picked up topics she wouldn't have had any interest in. The result is that most probably I have only a fraction of readers she had.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2008 12:17 am 
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Hmm, I don't know when I was a member anymore... I do remember though that once you were a member, you could browse through the entire archive of episodes - something I frequently abused. 8)

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2008 12:25 am 
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outriding wrote:
Brent Graef (Texas, USA, NH (sort of) clinician) said this to me about learning from horse people:

He said that regardless of who you are watching - a famous trainer, clinician, maybe some of your friends, watch them with the VOLUME turned off.


:lol:

I like his style! :lol:

However ( of course there's always the however 8) ), sometimes when I'm in a thinking mood, I really want to know how people think about horses, what their own philosophy on being with and training horses looks like, and then the the words, especially in the books, really are a powerful tool because I'm not being distracted by the moving images of our murky reality ;). Just reading the words kind of allows me to visualise a perfect world in which that philosophy works (or at least works in such a way that I can start using it myself too) - and when then later I watch a dvd, I have to admit that most of the time it's not quite as perfect and harmonious as I had imagined before. So then there's a little bit of disappointment at the fact that the trainer isn't as perfect as I imagined him to be (or as goodlooking :lol: ), but I still do have the visualisation to work on by myself with the ponies in our own murky reality.

I guess that, if we ever were going to go back on topic 8) , that would also be what the NHE interdicts are for me right now. After the initial shock, I now realise that even though I now have even more that I disagree on with the person Alexander Nevzorov, I still have the visualisations and ideals that I got from studying his method, his ideas. I still see Blacky doing a perfect capriole when I close my eyes! :lol: :wink:

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2008 12:32 am 
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Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 1:13 am
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Location: Hüllhorst, Germany
Miriam wrote:
Hmm, I don't know when I was a member anymore... I do remember though that once you were a member, you could browse through the entire archive of episodes - something I frequently abused. 8)

Well, that must have been lately, because I was forced (or so I thought) to introduce the membership concept in 2006, which wasn't a good idea and nearly killed the whole show. :cry:

I cancelled all money related issues on Sunday on the occasion of the 500th issue - hopefully it wasn't too late for a turnaround. :oops:

In other words: you read my articles and couldn't read hers. So: Tanks a lot for your praise! :D

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2008 2:19 am 
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Location: Taiwan, via NZ
Quote:
Brent Graef (Texas, USA, NH (sort of) clinician) said this to me about learning from horse people:

He said that regardless of who you are watching - a famous trainer, clinician, maybe some of your friends, watch them with the VOLUME turned off.


Oh I LOVE this advice! Thanks Cheryl for sharing it! I was on the Brent Graef list for a while.. some interesting thoughts being shared there.

However, interestingly, when I watched the man in question with the sound of, I saw quite a different picture. I guess it must be true of just about everybody.
You know what! That maybe what I like best about your video.. only the sound of the music. :lol:

Cheers,
Sue

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I have not sought the horse of bits, bridles, saddles and shackles,
But the horse of the wind, the horse of freedom, the horse of the dream. [Robert Vavra]


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2008 1:46 pm 

Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2007 6:29 pm
Posts: 147
This is my first post in this topic...

I was never on NHE forum but I do have two close friends that were-all kicked off for some reason or another.

Horses are herd animals and they DO develop mental illness when confined away from friends, even altering a horses thinking to be more like a predator. Taking a horse away from it's natural nature for is not new and a not the correct way-to me.

Getting a reaction you want out of the horse should not be goal #1 and I see NHE teaching some very wrong idea's to people on what a horse needs. Mental stability, health and even happiness should be goal 1 of any owner/trainer.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2008 4:05 pm 
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Location: Netherlands
Hooflady wrote:
Getting a reaction you want out of the horse should not be goal #1 (...). Mental stability, health and even happiness should be goal 1 of any owner/trainer.


Amen to that! :)

I think that for me, when I got in touch with bridleless dressage the first time (through Nevzorov really! :) ), the biggest eye-opener.

Of course every trainer will say the words 'It's not about the exercises, only about the horse, dressage isn't there for the ego of the humans but for the horse' etc., but when I realised that you could also train horses to move collected at liberty - that was the first thing I stumbled over (and fell flat on my face 8) ) when I started experimenting with this myself also: I realised that I had always used the words, but never convinced the ponies of them with my actions. Suddenly now that the ponies were free to ignore me and walk off when I was annoying them with another question for that same exercises, I realised that I was always raising myself and my wishes above those of the ponies. Of course I didn't train only to achieve a perfect shoulder-in, but I would ask that way too much, being convinced that I knew better then them how to do it, when to do it and how to perfect it. So yes, releasing the ponies of their tack (and in our case also the whip and the cordeo) in practice meant that I spent a lot of training time without pony. 8)

Of course there are shortcuts to 'fix' that problem, and that's really how I see the interdicts now, but you can also go through that and not see it as a problem of the horse, but instead as a problem that lies with you and cure the cause, not patch up the consequence. But luckily as sane human beings, we're all free to choose whether we use the shortcut, or go the real way. And if you choose the latter, I think you can still draw inspiration from the things Alexander does well - and one of the things he really does well is to show that it really is possible, bitless collection. We just have to find our own way towards that ourselves, and that might not be the way Alexander uses himself. But I think that that that doesn't just go for him, but also for all other classical dressage trainers, NH trainers and other people we can learn from. ;)

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2008 4:25 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 15, 2007 2:40 pm
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Location: Belgium
Miriam wrote:
But I think that that that doesn't just go for him, but also for all other classical dressage trainers, NH trainers and other people we can learn from. ;)


Applause! :applause:

And let us all conclude to this. The forum rule is that we do not spend energy on all the things we don't like in the world... we choose to spend our time and energy on those things we do like and can use!

Be it Nevzorov, Van Grunsven, Arthur Kottas, Hempfling, Roberts, Parelli....or any one you can think of. :)
That's it, just treat Mr. Nevzorov like we would any other trainer on this forum, that is all we are asking.

Thanks, ladies and gentlemen.

Now let us proceed to our training diaries 8)

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 10:56 am 

Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2009 2:33 pm
Posts: 2
Thanks for posting this, Sue! It's really interesting. I only don't agree completely with the interdict 3. Of course it must be much more difficult to get horse's attention and willingness to cooperate with a human when he has a happy life in a herd. If the horse is alone then the only amusing thing that happens to him/her is his human teacher who spends some time with him/her. I believe that it must be much easier to work with such a horse but I don't agree with the Nevzorov's statement that it's impossible to teach a horse when he/she lives in a herd (or that living in a herd reduces all the teacher's effort). There's a school member in NHE who has more horses living together. She teaches one of them school elements. She never tooks him away from the herd. The horse makes the place by himself when it's time to work. It's really interesting. He pushes other horses away and is willing to cooperate with his teacher although his herdmates are present. So - Nevzorov is sometimes exaggerating a little bit in his way of expressing his opinion and I think we should understand him so. But when he speaks about physiology, physical injuries that we can cause to the horse, forcing the horse, communication and relationship - in this points he's absolutely right.

Regards,
Liana


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 8:25 pm 

Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 9:58 pm
Posts: 1620
Location: Western Cape, South Africa
To a point!

I have a problem believing scientific research papers that he comes up with. I have yet to see anyone else come up with clinical trials and proven statistics that match his. Yes of course all horses will and can get damaged if we blindly go around riding them uneducated and sadly that is the case in the larger population of the horse world. As Alexander said himself there are lots of things he has done to horses in his past that he is not happy about. It is not too long ago he was riding with a bit..........

We all have our own paths to follow and it helps to have help and advice and support along the way, but watch out for the cool aid!!!!!! :funny:

As a matter of fact, my horse will leave his herd quite happily to come and play with me in a wide open space and this is quite normal here at AND.
The difference being is that when I am not around he is allowed to be a normal horse, grazing and playing with his buddies.
I think the dreaded Ego might just play a part here.......

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