The Art of Natural Dressage

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 4:13 pm 
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You simply can't make another persons choices, everyone makes his/her own. Who am I to say what is good or bad for someone? This I find is like placing yourself 'above' someone. Me myself, I'm not that kind of person. And neither are the other persons moderating here if I may speak for them. And this is why there are no AND gurus and why this is such an open and positive place to be. This is the strength of AND.

You can talk about your own experiences, but this is your truth, and may not be someone else's.
What I mean is, you can tell your story by keeping it by yourself, to present it as an subjective opinion of one person and present this respectfully -because you respect yourself enough not to sink to the level of those who are bashing maybe you or others-. People can read this, form their own opinion and make their own choices.

I don't call this 'helping', I call this 'sharing experiences'. This is the meaning of just making a video which let people see that horses in herds outside can be trained just as well. We don't say NHE is wrong, we just provide information for people to base their own choices on. As we give our horses their responsibility to choose... why would we go and tell people what to do?

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 4:22 pm 
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excuse me, and give me bad names if you wish too, but I think (correct me if I'am wrong) we don't have the same definition concerning some words.
When I dare to write: "watch out ! danger"...you consider it as a: attack (even as a personal one), disrespectfull and taking responsibilitys out of peoples hands.
Well,I see it much more as "I don't care so much about other folks" following freely the idea of "each one on his own, and god for all"...

Sorry, but I do care ! And I see it as my responsibilty toward otherones to hang out: "watch out! Danger! Signs" on places that are dangerous and that I do know well enough as a dangerous place by my own. If people wanna go there anyway, I have nothing against't, But at least I have done my best to warn them.

It's just like a frozen lake...you step on the ice and break through because the ice was to thin. You manage somehow to get out by your own of the ice-cold water..and then you see other ones running toward the ice with the idea to skate on the lake...
What do you do ? ? ? ?
Do you shout out: "Watch out, the ice is to thin and you will break through !" Or do you shut up and let the folks figure it out by them own that the ice is to thin ? And telling yourself :"Who am I to say what is good or bad for someone?"

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 4:34 pm 
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I understand what you mean Donald. But I think the thing we disagree on is, if I understand you correctly, that you see it as a fact that NHE is a bad place, where you should not go... you want to prevent people to fall through the thin NHE ice into the freezing NHE water (well, a suitable example :P). But to me, NHE may be a place where people should go if they choose to. It sure has learned me a lot, personally. And in my experience there were more things negative as positive but hey... it did provide a clear view about how a positive learning environment should be like :D and you are looking at the result. And so many people were and are so inspired by NHE to see bitless and even bridleless dressage ís possible, this is just a wonderful aspect which can't be denied.

So to my opinion, you can also learn when you see things you do not want to do yourself. And I personally find it very intriguing how people and their various ways of creating communities work. So even only for that aspect it can be very interesting to have a look.

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Last edited by Bianca on Wed Oct 29, 2008 4:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 4:46 pm 
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Quote:
it can be very interesting to have a look.

indeed it can be very interesting to have a look...the only thing that I do say is:
"Watch your steps very carefully, you might break through the ice before you can count up to 3, and don't believe in everything they show and tell you ! Not everything what you see there, and what shines... is also gold !"

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 5:29 pm 
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I am quite familiar with victims of cults.

The postings in this thread so far have been most interesting.

Yet they have been brought to a place that I think of as having great potential for healing just such traumas.

The mix here though includes many that have not experienced the cult like enclaves, and those here from one of them are all at different stages of recovery from the injuries.

This is a most pleasant place, if you allow it to be, where with patience, and quite a bit of forbearance, one can peacefully engage in what the cult leaders and their circle preached but did not practice.

So I request, with all due respect, that like those that have come here before, you NOT bring the argumentative and even violent arguments to this forum.

I do not care about the cult like followers, the few evil people that are attracted to some central charismatic figure.

I am far more interested in the gentle people that were taken in because they had gentle dreams of what might be.

Here they have come back to pursuing those dreams.

It's hardly the place to try and hammer out a listing of who is most evil in the cult scene.

I'll put it to you bluntly.

I don't care about your crusades against anyone. I don't care how evil they are. You perpetuate their power by paying them any attention at all. If you wish to do battle with them do it with THEM, not their former victims.

And I suspect those people already wise enough and strong enough to have ditched the cults do not wish to pursue it further in this forum. Elsewhere possibly, but not here.

This is where their original dream continues. They don't have to keep reviewing the nightmare parts of what happened to them.

I also know that because of past trauma it is very easy to hook up again with the source.

And you are bringing that source HERE.

Why?

They don't need to be warned. They already KNOW.

What is it you are trying to sell here.

What do you want from this forum? What do you want from the former members of the organizations you are attacking?

Do you know now much YOU look like the people you are talking about? At least in method?

Either gentle down, and join in the intent of AND, or go the hell away. You are trying to bring the same discourse, the same hostility, the same cacophony, confusion, and pain that you claim to be battling.

Both of you.

These are the winners. They won already. They left that shit behind.

If you want peace, and the pursuit of the same gentle spirit of this forum, I hope you'll stay.

Donald R.

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So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 5:30 pm 

Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2008 3:35 am
Posts: 135
Location: U.S..A. Michigan
Hello Werner, I have enjoyed reading what you have to say. Your magazine sounds very interesting also.
I would like to ask you a little more about the comments you made about Klaus.Recently AnnieB here in the forum attended a workshop with Klaus and she wrote a wonderful review of it. So I am very dismayed to read the comments made by Sigrid and Sabine. Living in the states I never new as much about Klaus as maybe people in Europe did, so all of these accusations are new to me.
You said Sabine was with him before he went to Spain, are you talking about 20 years ago? Or when? Certainly people can change. To say that someone crushed someone mentally an emotionally is a very strong statement that seems a bit unfair if they do not elaborate on how this was done.

Anyways, I am interested not in gossip but facts. I have no guru anymore that I follow or learn from. It is what I love the most about AND, we are allowed to take and learn from everyone. It seems to me that Klaus has alot of good to offer but if there is some real danger or someone can back up statemnts with facts I would be interested in hearing it.

If the moderators would prefer you could email me privately.
And now I am off to be with my horse. :D

Leah


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 6:12 pm 
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well I have do to apologize myself...because there is this old chinese saying that says : " The one that swims against the stream...makes the crocodiles smile."
Well,to my great "shame"... I have to admit that I have always loved smiling crocos because they do look much more lovely with a huge smile on their face....Or not ? :wink:
so sorry for it...call me a "troll" a "pain in the a**" or else.. but this is what I do in life and with horses too, what I have learned and what I am.
And what has made my succes too....
27 years ago, I have asked my teacher Tom Dorrance what to do now ? And his answer was this:
" Watch the other ones who and what they do...keep this in mind...and do the exact opposite of it ...You will see it will work like magic for you, if you do so."
Well doing so for the last 27 years (at least)...I have to admit that Tom was absolultly right on the money with his advice. :wink:

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My mission is to create a world where we can live in harmony with nature



www.equinebehaviour.com


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 6:22 pm 
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Hi Werner, and welcome!

I found your posts very interesting, and thought your insights into what happens to people (on both end of the conversation) when there is the seduction by a charismatic leader were very powerful. I agree with you -- often, this becomes damaging, even devastating, for both the leaders and the followers, especially when neither one can see the pitfalls that can emerge in that move. Absolute power corrupts absolutely, and all that!

I also very much appreciate your compassion about people who are angry and hurting as they emerge from a painful situation like that, and understand that finding their way back to themselves is a process.

But, I think that compassion is here, in a very particular way.

One of the things I love the most about this forum (and there are many things I love about it!) is that we are continually challenged by our founders/moderators and each other to treat one another in the way we are trying to treat our horses --with the same kind of commitment to listening and respect.

With that in mind, I've been thinking about how I might respond to a horse who is angry and hurt. (I have a horse who came to me this way, so this is practical versus hypothetical.) What I found worked with him was to respect and acknowledge his pain, but to use my energy try to show him a different way, one of love and mutual respect and opening. Has he forgotten the part of his life that was miserable? I don't think so, and I doubt he ever will. But he is learning that isn't the reality he's in now, and is accordingly learning that he can respond to me and the world around him differently.

I think the same is true for people. Of course we need to process our hurt when we are injured emotionally, but healing starts when we can begin to understand that while that hurt won't be erased from our experience, we can enfold it into how we move forward and use it to help us understand ourselves and the world around us. I have a doctorate in cultural mythology and depth psychology (working from the ideas of Jung, Hillman, Frohm, and others), and this is very much in line with a soul-based approach to psychology.

I've seen a number of people here challenged, gently and respectfully, towards making this move (and I'd include myself in that group!) :-). I've never seen anyone's pain dismissed, ever!, but the message is consistently to do a few things.

First, as Bianca and our other moderators have done here in this thread, to say "if you have a truth to share, understand it's your truth, not necessarily truth for everyone." This is a very important move, psychologically, for it frees us up to grapple with our hurts personally, rather than, like a horse with a strong fight response, lash out at those around us, and thereby continuing the cycle of hurting. So -- when I, for example, have complained about what other people have said and done with respect to me and my horses, I have been challenged to first think about it in terms of how that's impacted me, and then challenged to think about how I can move past it. Blanket "this is wrong or bad" statements about anything aren't what is being worked towards here -- it ultimately doesn't feel helpful.

The second message is to challenge (again, gently) people to start to think about what they can do differently -- again, this is very much in line with how, in my understanding, people interact with their horses here. It is not about dominating someone other than ourselves, ever, and telling them what to do -- but instead is a move into co-creation. Anger may spur creativity, but if we stay in anger, there is no creativity, if that makes sense.

I think that our moderators are very clear about this dynamic for several reasons. First, there is a deep philosophical belief and praxis here that we are all on our own paths -- and we while can learn from one another in a whole variety of ways, no one owns our path but ourselves. What is right for one person and her/his horses may not be right for someone else.

This is, to me, as revolutionary as anything this forum is doing, because it is so dramatically different from most of the horse community, where dominance in training ideology is as common as dominance over horses.

Second, after watching and being a part of the dynamics of this group for six months now, I feel that our moderators have made a very personal and passionate commitment to this forum teaching this sense of nonjudgmental openness through how the forum itself operates. How can any of us talk with honor about building a relationship that isn't based on dominance and/or judgment with our horses if we don't do our best to echo that here?

Third, I think that our moderators are very aware that what AND is working for is something that a lot of people in the horse community globally have a lot of suspicion/uncertainty about. One of the ways that AND can protect itself from attack is by never attacking anyone else. We can look carefully, and make our own assessments, but we don't condemn others, particularly in broad sweeping statements -- and ultimately, our energies are mostly spent investing in our own journeys and supporting others here on theirs. (You'll see as you read here that it's very rare for someone to say "do it this way." Instead, you'll almost always see people say, "here's something that worked for me." A subtle difference in language, but a huge difference in approach.)

I've found that this approach is valid in my own life, working with my horses at a commercial boarding facility where I am definitely the odd woman out in terms of approaches to horses! The work I'm doing with my horses flies in the face of most of the conventional wisdom of other riders and trainers in my community. I could either spend my time trying to convince them that they are wrong and I am right and/or worrying about defending my "rightness", or I can spend my time working with my horses in the way that I believe and see is working for us. While it was a struggle for me at first, I've chosen to do the latter.

I'm finding that by doing this, three interesting things happen: first, the opinions of others have become much less important to me as I step with more confidence onto my own path for my own journey; second, by not casting myself in a contentious, argumentative position with people who do things differently than I do, the negative comments have dissipated -- in part because people don't have anything to push against; and third, because there isn't a lot of combative energy around this, many of the people who are watching us have become intrigued with what we're doing, and have felt it safe to come and ask questions and learn about this approach.

I love this! As I work to be as soft and open with the people at my barn as I am trying to be with my horses, people respond in the same way -- by being curious and interested and willing to think about and try new things.

Lastly, as others have acknowledged, a community is a fragile thing -- I think this is especially true of online communities, because of the strange combination of intimacy and anonymity that they afford. Many of us come here in part because this is a haven from the harshness of much of the rest of the world, and I deeply admire our moderators' unflagging work to ensure that it doesn't dissolve into the kind of "hit and run" dynamic of many online fora. They've got a particular challenge with that currently, as it is growing so fast!

Werner, I hope that you'll stick around and post more -- I'm very intrigued by how you think!

And Donald, I hope you will stick around as well -- I'd love to hear more about how you work and play with your horses.

All the best,
Leigh

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 6:26 pm 
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Werner, welcome to AND. I'm glad that with all your knowledge and experience, that you find this forum an inspirational place.

I spent time in NHE. My experience was both bad and good. It honestly mirrored life. We have both good and bad experiences in life and we learn and grow from the bad as well as the good. There is little hope of success in telling people to stay away from NHE because it may make them sad or angry or feel somehow seduced, because we all, as individuals must create our own paths through the maze of information and experience that makes up the sum of our life's over all value and who am I to tell another that they would not be a perfect fit for the systems that Nevzorov or Hempfling or Parelli espouse? Just because I was not? Just because many were not? Some still are a good fit and are perfectly happy in that company.

Throwing up a danger sign will still not keep the curious out. Telling someone not to jump off a cliff may be perfectly good advice, but for a base jumper or paraglider, it's a rather useless exercise because the sign alone is in fact an open invitation to defy the odds and survive what might kill another.

I would instead wish to explain what good I found in that place. The beauty that I found in that place. Being in the company of others on the same search was wonderful and fulfilling. I can explain to anyone that the NHE forum was ultimately not for me, and I can explain why without shouting obscenities. I can do it deliberately and calmly knowing full well that the person I'm talking to, despite what I have to say, will have to make their own decisions on whether or not to go there. In this case it is a matter of free will, free choice and the hope that common sense is still in use by most people and that they are strong enough to survive life's disappointments.

Nevzorov does not eat small children in the night as far as I'm aware, and Hempfling does not steal souls that are not freely given and Parelli honestly means well in the horse world, even if many decisions now are based on monetary gain. At the beginning...he (all three of them) only meant well and only meant to make the world a better place for horses. A little showing off perhaps...and a desire to feel special is something we all can fall victim to. But the basic desire to simply share something beautiful had to be part of the formula in the beginning.

I still love what NHE can offer in terms of training techniques. I can listen to Hempfling philosophize all day long because he speaks beautiful words and asks us to look deep inside ourselves before we begin to make demands on a horse. Maybe he's a closet tyrant, but I have the choice not to get drawn into that aspect. I can take what is beautiful and still thank him for that. I can watch dvds of Pat and Linda Parelli and look past the commercialism and appreciate that they too are sharing a journey...as they learn and grow their program changes. I don't have to buy into the commercialism to appreciate that they share some valuable information.

I learn from everyone. Everyone here, from a confused child struggling to see past tradition and try to see through they eyes of her horse, to a quiet dentist who does the most amazing things with a horse whose past left him mentally and physically broken.

I can look at the most abusive sport trainer and somewhere in that picture I will see someone who began with good intentions and who was led astray by who knows what. We are frail, we are weak. But we are all worthy of deciding our own paths and our own fates. We can all revel in the joy of learning without falling into despair over the bad that has happened in our lives.

We do not help a desperate horse by telling her how awful her past was. We help her by showing how bright the future can be.

So Werner, I love your writing, your obvious intelligence and your knowledge. I hope you will have time to share more now and again. Even citing references for us all to go and check out for ourselves is very valuable.

And Donald Newe...we all have a bit of a rocky past with each other, and where I know you are a very busy man with little patience for those who may still be struggling with their own truths, I hope you feel compelled now and again within this forum to offer direction and guidance to someone when they most desperately need it. How can you not like someone so strong in their own convictions? We may not agree with each other, but darn, the passion is admirable.

All are welcome here. The rules are simple and easy to remember. They are pared to the bare minimum in order to allow us all to carry on with the journey of discovery. Horse first. Be broadly respectful of the journey of others, regardless how that journey manifests itself in a given point in time. If you wish to help guide another, offer them ideas of what they CAN do...not what they should not do.

Be giving. Be hopeful. Study the past but aim your heart and soul into the future.

Easy-peasy.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 8:06 pm 
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Quote:
Throwing up a danger sign will still not keep the curious out. Telling someone not to jump off a cliff may be perfectly good advice, but for a base jumper or paraglider, it's a rather useless exercise because the sign alone is in fact an open invitation to defy the odds and survive what might kill another.

well having done basejumping and skydiving by my own for more than 11 years ....I do know that they are excellent ones, medium ones and also suicidial ones... so, your statement is everything but a mesure to me concerning this...but of course I can always deny my resonsibiltys by telling myself that I'm not the guardian of manhood and that everybody do what he/she like, even by the way that they might run straight into a wall... and so ? Who I'm to tell them that there is is wall straight ahead of them and that they are on the way to run on full speed into it ? They realy don't nned need me or anybody else to figure this out...at least they will figure it out in the very moment they hit the wall..but this is not at all my business, not more like yours !

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 8:09 pm 
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Quote:
And Donald Newe...we all have a bit of a rocky past with each other, and where I know you are a very busy man with little patience for those who may still be struggling with their own truths,


With all my respect....if you think realy YOU KNOW THIS ABOUT ME.....I have to tell you that you know nothing at all about me ! Sorry ! But "having patience for those who may still be struggling with their own truths"...is my job !

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Last edited by Donald U. Newe on Wed Oct 29, 2008 8:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 8:18 pm 
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I should have been clearer...my apologies. I meant only with respect to NHE.

And I don't truely see the NHE forum as a wall. It's more like a curtain...not so likely to cause a concussion. :D

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Last edited by Karen on Wed Oct 29, 2008 8:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 8:59 pm 
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Donald U. Newe wrote:
The only thing that I do say is:
"Watch your steps very carefully, you might break through the ice before you can count up to 3, and don't believe in everything they show and tell you ! Not everything what you see there, and what shines... is also gold !"


I think that that's great advice to give other people, and that would be very appropriate in this forum too. It's essentially what the universal answer over here is when someone asks over here if they should study another method: go out and study, learn everything you can but keep your ears and eyes open and don't take the words of the trainer, but the expressions of their horses as guideline.

So yes, please do give those messages that way!

It's not the message that's wrong, it's the way it's sometimes sent out. There's a difference between saying 'You can learn a lot over there, but be careful because they have a way of sucking people in', and saying 'If you go there you are a debilitated sheep because only the lowest of life forms can learn something over there.'. 8)

That is what we object against: the way a personal opinion is phrased in such a way that it's both an insult and a universal truth. I've been 'sucked into' NHE myself for a while and struggled for quite some time to discover that I really didn't want/need the way they approached people in order to reach the same relationship / results with horses.

However, I also realise that if I hadn't been as needy :wink: as I was back then, believing that there must be one person with all the answers, I wouldn't have been effected that much at all. That's the interesting thing for me about this forum and the people I meet here who have also come from NHE; some have had huge personal problems over there and have gone through quite some issues in order to break free from it all (count me in), while others who I met over here later just stated 'Oh, I was only there for learning the horse-stuff, all the other things like intriges and ego-games didn't really interest or bother me.'

:shock: :roll: 8)
I hadn't even begun to realise that it was actually possible to be in such a place and not be effected by it - simply because I had made my own experiences and my own state of mind when I entered it, as universal truth. :roll: :wink:

So yes, to people who want to study Parelli, I would say, do that, but do realise that the use of pressure phases have a big impact mentally on the horse. When people ask me if they should study NHE, I reply that what Alexander himself does indeed is very inspiring, but that the way the forum itself was ran when I was back there, it was quite a negative place. So yes, go and learn, but realise that what other people tell you is not 'the truth' (same goes for me!), but just an opinion.

And as the same goes for every post that is done over here, all the members of this forum have agreed to keep that as a personal guideline in our posts: not abusing others just because we disagree on something, own our opinions and experiences and not raise them to universal truths, and just respect others as teachers just as you respect.. your horse. :wink:

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New horse book: Mandala horses!


Never stop making mistakes! Natural Dressage


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 9:19 pm 
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Location: The Hague, Netherlands
Donald U. Newe wrote:
....
" Watch the other ones who and what they do...keep this in mind...and do the exact opposite of it ...You will see it will work like magic for you, if you do so."
Well doing so for the last 27 years (at least)...I have to admit that Tom was absolultly right on the money with his advice. :wink:


Haha this makes me smile :D According to this quote you should encourage people to go to watch people who do things you don't agree on, and do exactly the opposite ;) So you should encourage people to go to NHE ;) (sorry just joking a bit)

Leigh, Karen and Miriam, thank you for your inspirational words! :friends:
I'm now taking the time to give a good night kiss to my horses instead of talking about NHE :kiss:

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Last edited by Bianca on Wed Oct 29, 2008 9:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 9:28 pm 
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And the fact that you strictly advice people not to go there, according to this philosophy means that they actually should do exactly the opposite of what you try to teach them and go there?
8)

Okay, it is a bad joke, but it really is quite funny and I can't help laughing either! :lol: 8)

I personally don't believe in 'go to trainer X and do the total opposite' either. After Nevzorov that would have meant that I was training Blacky and Sjors in sidereins, bits, spurs and whips now! :roll: 8)

And why be so negative (you have to do the total opposite!) about things, methods, ideas and people you haven't even encountered yet?

I guess the trick isn't to toss out everything you might learn from other people, but to discover those teachers who still have good things to teach you, even when you ignore the rest. For example, I'm still brooding on the idea to ask a good classical dressage trainer to come over and watch the ponies play with me, and then get feedback on what we are doing biomechanically-wise. Not in order to do the total opposite, but in order to learn from his/her knowledge and work on their ideas, even when the tools (bridles, whips) or methodes (pressure-release) they suggest aren't going to be used by me.

So if I was allowed to choose between the philosophy of 'do exactly the opposite of what others (other people than me!! 8)) teach you', and 'take the ideas that can help you and ignore the rest', I would sure choose the latter!

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New horse book: Mandala horses!


Never stop making mistakes! Natural Dressage


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