The Art of Natural Dressage

Working with the Horse's Initiative
It is currently Tue Nov 12, 2019 12:18 am

All times are UTC+01:00




Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 130 posts ]  Go to page 1 2 3 4 59 Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 4:36 am 
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 20, 2007 5:52 am
Posts: 1852
Location: Taiwan, via NZ
It was with horror, and then sadness, that I contemplated an article that was sent to me last week. I debated for a few days whether to discuss it here, asked advice from the moderators, and am finally beginning a topic on it.

This article has already prompted a new wave of NHE students to leave the school, and I guess there will be more to come, some of them here, some confused, some hurt, some shocked, some still not really trusting their own judgement and still trying to hold on to their vision of the King's new clothes; and all, certainly, trying to evaluate the truth, and know whether they can in fact continue to follow their twin ideals of compassionate horse training AND compassionate horse-keeping.

I hope that they may gradually reach peace with themselves, as they are able to give themselves permission for free thought. I hope that they will find the courage and support they need to make their own path into ethically responsible territory.

Leigh posted this timely quote in her diary today;
Quote:
DO NOT believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe simply because it has been handed down for many generations. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is written in Holy Scriptures. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of Teachers, elders or wise men. Believe only after careful observation and analysis, when you find that it agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all. Then accept it and live up to it.

-Buddha, from Kalama Sutta


[color=indigo]And I open this topic in the spirit of compassion.

I am not allowed to post the full article here for obvious reasons. (Please email me if you would like more info.) So I will try to summmarize the main points.

The article is titled THE TREATISE ON THE WORK IN HAND and is "the official School position of Nevzorov Haute Ecole". It was apparently written by Alexander Nevzorov, then translated into English by his students. This is a draught version that was submitted to school members for their comment, and is intended to later be published in one of the NHE magazines.

I understand that there has already been quite a bit of debate about it, it was posted on the forum, then withdrawn for copyright reasons. Some prominent school members have left because of disagreement with it, others are apparently defending it and saying that the departing members are somehow misunderstanding it, and perhaps the translation is faulty. They are awaiting publication of the final version for clarification.


The introduction presents the purpose of the Treatise then goes on to introduce the "School Interdicts" which are an integral part of the Treatise. Students must not only absolutely obey them, but also understand their neccessity.

Quote:
Those who are not able to submit to the School Interdicts or are not able to execute them do not need to spend any more time reading the present Treatise.

There are few principal all-comprising Interdicts of the School work in hand, though they are quite strict. However, neglecting them guarantees you a complete disaster.


The first interdict is simple - No bits.

Second,also fairly straight forward (if debatable) - Use of any kind of nasal control, due to the effect being based on injury to the infraorbital nerve. The article goes on to state that these forms of control are often used by deceivers and people who are deceived. ( I guess Dr Cook is no longer on the list of friends.)

Interdict Three.. I will discuss later.

Interdict Four - shoeing.

Interdict Five - a little more interesting; Ventriloquism. This is defined further as "pathetic lying", and in relation to working with horses, as the act of speaking on behalf of the horse, or stating something from the horses point of view, evaluating the horses mood or facial expression. MR Nevzorov asserts that fools, amateurs and deceivers commonly do this.

The Interdicts are concluded by a statement recalling other previously published interdicts,
Quote:
limitations of the types and sorts of religion, obligation to be a vegetarian, etc.,
. These other interdicts must be understood and followed. However, the school does not enforce them - these interdicts enforce themselves:
Quote:
Non-observance of any of these Interdicts will result in complete failure of the work in hand in the horse's education.


The article concludes with an essay on Mr Nevzorov's interpretations of some aspects of human/equestrian history.


But back to Interdict Three.


Interdict Three is the Biggie.

Quote:
Any herd or herd-like horse management is interdicted. Besides the rebuilding of the horse's entire musculature, herd living makes a horse very primitive and stupid, and returns the horse to the world of primitive ideas and manners. From the School's point of view, herd keeping seems to be akin to sheep breeding..



The next sentence I find truly saddening and so far away from the things I believe in.

Quote:
Equine education in this School (as well as true human education) is first of all the psychological process of weaning the creature from its animal nature.


When I first became interested in Mr Nevzorov's philosophy and training methods, I was impressed by the way he was taking the horses animal nature and helping the horse to return to it, and present it in all it's fullness, magnificence and glory. It seems I was fooling myself. Or perhaps it's just semantics..
However we choose to define "animal nature" though, the article goes on to give very clear directions in what must actually be DONE.


The next paragraph gives examples of how a horse is made stupid and savage by mixing with herd members, and ends with this warning:
Quote:
When you educate a School horse, i.e. teaching the horse to consciously perform actions which contradict her primitive nature, teaching her to abandon primitive habits and savage manners. Herd living makes the teacher's labor futile. It is at least illogical and guarantees that the process of horse education will be a vain and silly waste of time. It is based on complete ignorance, on the attitude that a horse is a mobile piece of meat, and on the attitude that herd life will provide this piece of meat the motor physiological functions for keeping fit in a group and for the convenience of lazy grooms.

The herd is an astonishingly influential factor on the horse's mind and will always try to destroy any fruits of education. You will teach the horse, and the herd will delete everything you have taught the horse during the lesson.


Mr Nevzorov goes on to assert that the herd is not a place for the horse to learn anything good. He is not aware of any example of a horse teaching another one to piaffe, or balance or understand the teacher's movements.

I can't help but wonder at this point how much experience Mr Nevzorov has had with teaching a horse in the company of other horses. It would seem to me that his knowledge in this area is not great. I would argue on two points; Firstly, that all the movements of HE are derived from the horses natural movements (something that I have heard from Mr Nevzorov himself), and these movements are developed, practiced and perfected during herd life.
Secondly, horses most definitely DO learn tasks UNRELATED to normal equine behaviour from watching other horses train and perform, IF the conditions are correct.


Later he comments that herd living may only be useful in certain educational menages when a horse needs to renew it's passive savageness and become stupid - a manege where the horse is taught the basics of horse-human relationships.

The next paragraph deals with the problem of the horses welfare and "happines". Here he asserts that " talk about a herd being the key to equine happiness is largely foolishness". He goes on to say that happiness is a relative concept, having no physiological parameters, so is not relevant to this discussion and gives the examples of differnt kinds of happiness - the stupid hapiness man derives from satisfying his base instints, compared to the happiness of violinist having brilliantly played a piece of music.

I would have to ask, what about outside those rarefied moments of of musical pleasure.. how does that violinist LIVE? Only waiting the next performance? However, I am a celebrant of the pleasure of the senses and the moment - pure and simple, and this is where I see man transcending the baseness, thoughtlessness and depravity that Mr Nevzorov fears. Being diametrically opposed, my argument on this level is probably worthless.

So I have to return to ethics. If we admit that it is NECCESSARY to keep a horse away from his peers, so that he may be brilliant, is it ETHICAL?

Can we take that violinist, lock him up in a lovely room, provide him with food and entertainment, but deny him any company other than that of his teacher, forbid him from having a family, hobbies, recreation or his own choosing?

Wasn't the advertised purpose of NHE supposed to be FOR THE BETTERMENT OF THE HORSE.. not for our selfish purpose? Betterment for WHAT I have to ask? Riding for pleasure is not acceptable, we must not ride for our own benefit or satisfaction - it is purely a way of helping the horse strengthen and supple, FOR WHAT? So that we may help the poor ignorant horse transcend his base instincts and become enlightened? So that he may learn perverted human happiness that is based, not on pleasure in the moment, but on the pride of accomplishment and performance?
If the answer are yes, then I still have to ask, who are we, or more specifically, who is Mr Nevzorov, to make this choice?


Later, Mr Nevzorov qualifies that he is not against herd-keeping. It has some positive features, and is neccessary if your purpose is to return your horse to the wild. But he warns again, that those people who try to have it both ways, real education and walks with a herd must be prepared for the fact that wild horse behaviour will surface in the horses demeanor and it will nullify the the horses achievements, almost always reducing them to zero.

The next paragraphs discuss the origins of the current vogue of herd keeping and "other falsely natural horse keeping practices" as being erroneous NH theories and practices. He exorts us to remember that all these things originate from the tasks of NH, and that the most important task of NH is to make the horse as stupid as possible.

The matter of turnout is then discussed. Interdict Three is not intended to forbid turnout.
Turnouts must take place, but only with the following obligatory conditions:
- The turnout area must be small enough, and the horse so near and constantly watched that even the smallest injury must be noticed at the moment of injury.
- a rug (not torn or wet) is stricly obligatory for a school horse when the temp is below +5 degrees C.
-only when the ground is safe (ice, rough ground etc will sooner or later cause an inevitable disability.)
(and of course a little of the inevitable physiology is thrown in -
Quote:
"No necropsy of a horse's leg has ever proven the presence of any adaptational changes to the ligaments, joints and any other tissue of the organism, which had to move on icy or rough ground. Hence, showing the absence of any adaptation and knowing the general vulnerability of the myology and the skeletal structure of equine legs, we can confidently speak about inevitable harm, and inescapable injury to the equine muscular-skeletal system when moving on improper ground'


Mr Nevozorov then discusses historical facts regarding School teaching and herd-life - begining with the "disgust and perplexity" traditional schools have felt for the topic. He cites a school master as practicing a technique that translates as "soaking in boredom". Horses kept this way became very "purposeful, passionate and attentive" in the menage. It is not clear from the article whether Mr Nevzorov supports this method or not. He does call it extreme, and says that it was abandoned in the XVIII century.
The next paragraph describes another school master's method, which was concerned instead with providing entertainment for the horse every minute. Ths master appointed two brightly dressed grooms to each horse, and employed the use of fair wrestlers to "fight near the fence of the horses small paddock all day long, and Gypsies with tambourines, firecrackers and waving flags."

There is no direct indication of which method Mr Nevzorov favours, however, his earlier comment about herd keeping being "for the convenience of lazy grooms" gives me the impression that he does believe that confined horses require a certain level of extra effort.

When I think of the videos of Lippisina, in her wild play though, I can't help but also hear the words
"Horses kept this way became very "purposeful, passionate and attentive" in the menage. "

I've often counseled people who are becoming frustrated, disillusioned and self-accusatory due to their failute to engage their horses in wild play, using only the NHE schools previously published methods; being interesting, accepting that the horse is always right, spending plenty of time being friends with the horse, running around with a ball, etc etc etc, and also accepting that using food as "bribery" is forbidden. I wrote this to a friend yesterday:
"getting a horse who is having all his needs met through free living and herd life to play is a much trickier thing than encouraging a stable bound horse to do the same. If "He" is also a she, a little on the long toothed side, chubby, is of the more conservatively inclined breeds etc.. then your chances are pretty much nil.. UNLESS you employ the judicious use of EXTERNAL reward to build their initial motivation.

So.. do we give up and confine a horse to solitary, so that we can keep ourselves and our horses "pure" and not debase them with bribery...or do we allow them to live as horses and compromise?

Welll.. you know my choice. <s>"

It has long been my belief that Mr Nevzorov's horses MUST be confined and living without free interaction with other horses. I have not been able to believe any other way possible for him to get that level of energy and motivation out of his horses WITHOUT that device, unless he was using a sophistaced system of reward based training.. which he has said he is not, and other's more experienced than me have confirmed. Yes, we can see him give treats, but according to them, he's not doing it in a very systematic and effective way.

So, this Interdict confirms what I have long suspected. On that level, I am not shocked.
However, I am shocked that it has now not only come out in the open, but been presented as a command that must be strictly adhered to, and has been defended on all levels to show it's "correctness" as the ONLY way possible.

That also saddens me. There is this wonderful bright hope in the world now, which Mr Nevzorov can take a certain amount of the credit for spreading; that high levels of training ARE POSSIBLE WITHOUT A BIT!
Some people take that hope further, and add that it's also possible without RESTRICTION OR FORCE OF ANY KIND. The enlightened know that disbelief is a measure of the disbeliever's lacks as a trainer... lack of imagination, lack of compassion, lack of knowledge and experience, lack of techniques and skill.

I would like to assert also that high levels of training ARE POSSIBLE WITHOUT WITHOLDING FROM A HORSE HIS BASIC NEEDS< (food, shelter, grazing, freedom of movement, companionship of peers, etc.)
And that disbelief in this stems from the same lacks.

Now the implications of that saddens me too.

However.
The flip side of Leigh's quote, is that we should also SEEK out knowledge and enlightenment from whereever we should find it, and have no expectation that the source be all-knowing, all-seeing, all-perfect.
So I will continue to draw inspiration from Mr Nevzorov's work. But I will also continue to perform according to my ethical standards.
My horses will continue to live in a herd, and I will continue to explore ways that they can learn, develop their intelligence, skill,, motivation, power, energy and passsion within my ethical parameters of training and horse keeping.

I do believe that we can achieve success.. in fact we achieve it every day.
However, the bottom line for me is, if Interdict Number Three really did turn out to be a prerequisite in training a horse to perform at liberty and without force, if we really did achieve zero as predicted, then I would feel completely okay about allowing my horses to live out a life without HE, enjoying their herd life, sharing time with me, and getting their exercise through simpler means.

As I wrote to someone recently, I find this article "horrifying, disgusting, absurd, macabrely comic." It never fails to astound me how seemingly intelligent people can believe their own propaganda.

However, as I said before, not surprising.

I have long suspected that a lot of Nevzorov's "philosophy" is very thinly disguised personal vanity, the prohibition against "pleasure-riding", the insistence that everything is all and only for the horses benefit. Using bullying brainwashing techniques and pseudo-scientific language to justify his own desires.

I also had a fair idea that the Nevzorovs keep all their horses in solitary seclusion. That is the only way I could comprehend that they could get that kind of frenzied play out of them. Myself and others have questioned this while in NHE, and not received conclusive answers.

So now it seems, this is the next logical step. Rather than address the cruelty of solitary confinement, Nevzorov finds a way to defend it. Former friends are now enemies. The lines are redrawn and the rules rewritten, with the facts arranged to suit.



- Look. The pigs walk on two legs and wear suits.
And don't realise how absurd is the picture.

Meanwhile, my ignorant little sheep awaits me in the stable.. where she has opened the latched gate for the rest of her herd mates to enter and share Rosie's lunch.

Sue,
In disgust!

_________________
Image
I have not sought the horse of bits, bridles, saddles and shackles,
But the horse of the wind, the horse of freedom, the horse of the dream. [Robert Vavra]


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 6:52 am 
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2007 8:20 am
Posts: 6076
Location: Dresden, Germany
When I read the article some days ago, it neither surprised me nor did I really feel like discussing it (that´s only my personal feeling, everyone else should feel free to post on this of course!). It would have surprised me if the Nevzorov´s with their elaborated ways of confining people would believe in freedom (outside the miniature cage of the manege) for horses. I am thankful for the inspiration I got from AN´s videos and I am leaving behind everything that I don´t like - it just doesn´t help me with my horses.

So instead of many words I am just posting the first reaction to this article that arose from the discussion among the moderators:

A video, playing with herd horses

We are planning to do more of this. :)


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 8:16 am 
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 3:20 pm
Posts: 1822
Location: Norway
Ha ha - THAT's the reason for that video... :lol: :lol:

I get so impressed Bianca don't get scared - if Vilja starts like this I have to slow her a bit - i get soooo uncomfortable.... 8) :lol:


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 8:32 am 
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 15, 2007 2:40 pm
Posts: 4733
Location: Belgium
I have one answer to this: Evita and Bianca


8)

And watch Owen soon now he is getting better! :D

And there are much more here who do not find any problem in training nor wild games, while their horse lives in a herd.

It is the same thing over and over again... whether it is a traditonal rider, NH or Alexander... I have to say to all of you who can relate only to your own abilities and experiences:

'Just because you can not do something with a horse, that does not mean someone else can't'.

There you go... 8)
And in the name of very stupid Forest Gump:
"That's all I have to say about that'.

so, let me go back to eating...for my instinct is making me stupid. :lol:
Life is like a box of chocolates...

_________________
www.equusuniversalis.com


Last edited by Josepha on Thu Oct 09, 2008 9:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 8:44 am 
Site Admin

Joined: Tue May 15, 2007 2:44 pm
Posts: 1937
Location: The Hague, Netherlands
Yes indeed in this actions speak louder than words...
I hope this small film will make people see that exited horses are not 'made' by manipulating their environment in a way that doesn't add to the horses psychological well-being.

For instance, Evita is outside of the training not a very energetic horse, is outside in the pasture all day with Imperia. The only thing to say is that she likes to be in my company and like to play together, even in a pasture with grass (I will have to film that ;)) and even among other horses...

It's easy to call someone a friend when you are the only person he/she ever sees... the real value is when a person likes to be with you and loves you even when there are 100.000 people around.
But I think I'm preaching to the choir over here ;)

I find it sad that a man who is such an inspiration to many of us destroys the thing which is so crucial in the things he made the world see... the positive power of a blissful horse.
And only hope that people go and search their own truth, hope the video will make them see a possibility to keep in mind.

Sue, thank you very much for posting this. We are not here to bash NHE while it has inspired many of us but it is good to describe there are ways in different directions.

_________________
Image


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 8:53 am 
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2008 8:08 pm
Posts: 14
Sue have done a great job with extracting this article, and I find it exactly like she does
Quote:
I find this article "horrifying, disgusting, absurd, macabrely comic." It never fails to astound me how seemingly intelligent people can believe their own propaganda
.
But Alexandar's ways are not my first worry in this case, he have right to do or justify whatever he wants in his work with horses, as anybody else.
What I find truly scary and NOT his and Lidia's right is their constant lying and misleading people who are new or stay on a open part of NHE forum. Most of people that are attracted to NHE are attracted with horse BENEFIT idea,as it presented in "public NHE rules", and most of them will never get there if they can read this interidcts and find what is behind of great master and great perform.
Even now on NHE open part people as usualy just get
Quote:
bullying brainwashing techniques and pseudo-scientific language
as answer on their logical questions about reasons why rep's left. In this case it is presented in the "Hierarchy of Needs", and lying that former NHE rep's are left beacuse they made conspiracy agains NHE! :shock:
I'm not even sure is this article will be ever published anywhere. Seems to me that bringing that interdicts on the light will left NHE without new "fresh minds" what seems to be food for those "interesting" couple.
Great disappointment and great relief anyway. :wink:


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 8:56 am 
Site Admin

Joined: Tue May 15, 2007 2:44 pm
Posts: 1937
Location: The Hague, Netherlands
Kirsti wrote:
Ha ha - THAT's the reason for that video... :lol: :lol:


:lol: ... nooo... you really think so? ;)

Kirsti wrote:
I get so impressed Bianca don't get scared - if Vilja starts like this I have to slow her a bit - i get soooo uncomfortable.... 8) :lol:


With Imperia this is also the case.. when I would do this with Imperia I think I'll find her legs around my neck :lol:
It's just a long road of interaction and one day you know your horse is careful with you as a human and really understands how breakable you are. I'm training with Evita for 3 years and she is very good in controlling her emotions. I wonder how long it will be before I can play this way with, much more outgoing, Imperia, maybe 10 years? ;)

_________________
Image


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 9:08 am 
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 3:20 pm
Posts: 1822
Location: Norway
Thank you Bianca - that was comforting to hear.. I also can play with the ponies (only Lisa acts this way in games) but they are so small :lol: :lol:

But Vilja get soooo powerful and jumping - and I am really not sure if she knows I am very easy to break (although I bet she knoew - I have seen her played with Spirit lots of times, and she is sooo careful - if he suddenly is under her when she rares - she turnes and lands carefully no matter how crocked she has to be to make it...).

Hmmm - now you made me think. I have to take up the wildgames again.... :lol: :lol:


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 9:19 am 
Site Admin

Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 7:51 pm
Posts: 2055
Location: Netherlands
If only Nevzorov lived in Europe...

In a few years it will be illegal over here to keep horses alone without other horses. And I do not believe that that's because of an international consipracy to keep horses stupid! :twisted: :lol:

It's actually quite logical where this rule comes from: in the past too Nevzorov has shown a tendency to make his own circumstances the rule for all others, especially if his' weren't perfect. As he has no pasture, no possibility to ride out - both are forbidden for his members too. And then he digs up history books, pulls some paragraphs out of their historical context and shows them as proof for why his doings are the most correct. It really is interesting that Nevzorov on the one hand accepts the old masters decision to keep horses locked up in stables and small paddocks as the only truth as they have all the wisdom of the true masters, and on the other hand refuses to use the bits and tools that those same masters advice. It's a bit conflicting at the least when you never see the middle road, and only are positive or negative about the same book.

For the rest all I have to say is that this interdict 3 is just such a waste of what Nevzorov has achieved in the minds of horsepeople... Because it gives the world such a terrible signal: yes, bit/bridleless dressage is possible, but only if you keep your horse locked up in solitude 24/7 so that he has enough energy and longing for contact with another being to actually work along with you that way. If that really was true, I would be the first to revert back to bits immediately.... :oops:

_________________

New horse book: Mandala horses!


Never stop making mistakes! Natural Dressage


Last edited by admin on Thu Oct 09, 2008 10:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 9:38 am 
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 3:20 pm
Posts: 1822
Location: Norway
Yes, Miriam - I do so absolutely agree with you... :( :( :(


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 10:08 am 
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2008 10:18 pm
Posts: 103
Location: uk
Sue,
I too suspected that the Nevzorovs horses were kept in social isolation in stables and it was something that always niggled at me but in my own naive mind I made excuses for it because I didnt believe that it would be the case if they had another option.
But oh, the arrogance of the human. For me it actually destroys everything else that AN may have done. Would a horse choose one hours pain from being ridden with a bit if he could then spend the rest of his time with his herd mates in freedom? I cannot answer that question but there is the possibility that the answer is yes. The whole of the horses needs are wiped out by putting him in a stable.
The beauty of a horse in arousal has always been something that man has tried to achieve on cue. AN comes somewhere close but I dont believe man can ever achieve the same passage or piaffe for example that we observe when a stallion is with his mare because we take away the reason for him doing it and therefore the soul. That is not to say that we cannot achieve appoximations of it but to suggest that we can teach a horse to do it better, and removing him from all natural environments will enlighten him is arrogance to the extreme.

I often wondered also, about the exaggerated playing, where a horse behaved like a foal, with total spontaneaety and abandon. I thought it incredible that that could be achieved. But now I see it for the distortion that it really is. We can achieve play with our horses that is real, genuine joy, I do believe, but there is no need for that explosive, desperate kind of energy (its obvious now).To them play with us at that level if it is born out of frustration and desperation, Id rather not.
We ignore the ethology of the equine to the detriment of our horses and ultimately we lose too.

I would like to try and say something positive but I am really very, very saddened by this too. I have been struggling with keeping positive in the light of what humans do to horses for our own greed and mostly in ignorance. But now to hear that someone (with whatever faults NHE may or may not have) who advocates the worldwide betterment of the horse can be insisting on this, I wonder what hope there is for everyone else.
But actually I can end on a positive note because at least we have AND where we can find truly enlightened people sending out really positive messages and energy and a place where we can learn truly wondorous things.
All the best
Colette


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 2:16 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2008 12:03 am
Posts: 1351
Location: Washington, Maine USA
I have only watched AN DVDs and they way the horses tore around the arena, I suspected that they had been stalled for at least a period of time.

And isolation and deprivation to enhance training has been around a long time in the dog world, especially 'working' dogs.

Some intense dog sport competitors isolate their puppies for the early months, and teach only focus on the human. I never did that, actually the opposite, trained for cued attention around intense distractions, like dogs play, agility, etc. and got the same relationship or better!! Also, crating the dog for long periods before working is common in the competitive obedience world!

In the sheepdog world, often the sheep dogs are often kenneled unless they are working sheep, and some old timers feel that keeping them as companions in the house, playing with toys, and other 'frivolous' activities will ruin their working abilities!! Well, when a few of us 'agility' folks showed up there with our cross trained BCs, we showed them that a dog could go from sleeping on the bed to playing frisbee to the trial field with winning results!!!

Seems like a lot of the above are just age old training myths, and it seem like AN is making up a whole new set of them for horses!!

Brenda

_________________
http://www.youtube.com/user/Lucy04574
http://www.youtube.com/user/Jack04574


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 2:17 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2008 12:03 am
Posts: 1351
Location: Washington, Maine USA
Could someone explain AN view on using treats for training??? I thought he did use them for some things???

Thanks.

Brenda

_________________
http://www.youtube.com/user/Lucy04574

http://www.youtube.com/user/Jack04574


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 2:38 pm 
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 15, 2007 2:40 pm
Posts: 4733
Location: Belgium
Brenda wrote:

Seems like a lot of the above are just age old training myths, and it seem like AN is making up a whole new set of them for horses!!

Brenda


It is not new at all... how often have I not heard from dressage riders that keeping a horse outside with friends in the field will make him fat and laizy and just run after and scream to other horses... :(

'hi, I need a new rug now for my horse destroys them, tearing at it'
'is he in a box? the feed him hay all day to provent him for boredom and stomach problems'
'hay all day??? Excuse me! I have SPORT horses you know!!!!'

just an example of a true conversation...if you can call it that.

_________________
www.equusuniversalis.com


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 2:59 pm 
Site Admin

Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 7:51 pm
Posts: 2055
Location: Netherlands
Brenda wrote:
Could someone explain AN view on using treats for training??? I thought he did use them for some things???


It's quite complicated, so a good question indeed. In the dvd's you see him giving his horses foodrewards (without rewardsignal/clicker), and on his forum the general message was - when I was there - that using treats wasn't promoted as then the horse would only work for the treat not for the human. And if you did use treats, then using a rewardsignal to accompany it and give it timing was seen as even worse because then the horse would only focus on getting the treats through the exercises, instead of focusing on the movements themselves for their own sake.

Of course there were a lot of clickertrainers over there too who tried to explain why that wasn't true, but the main Nevzorov trainers plus Lydia were convinced of the above, and the question why then Alexander used food in the dvds, always was a bit ignored.

Well, I was happy that they at least left some treating-scene in the dvds and hadn't cut them entirely away, so that it was still clear that food was at least one of the motivators. :)

_________________

New horse book: Mandala horses!


Never stop making mistakes! Natural Dressage


Top
   
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 130 posts ]  Go to page 1 2 3 4 59 Next

All times are UTC+01:00


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Limited Color scheme created with Colorize It.