The Art of Natural Dressage

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 9:54 pm 

Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2009 12:03 am
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I love all these contributions. Sometimes some conflict is a good thing to make us move along in our thinking and it makes us stretch soooo far to find common ground. Once we found the common ground it suddenly grows hugely until we find our differences are really pretty small. :) Given the huge differences in personalities, culture, language and experiences this is really amazing. I think what brings us together in spite of miscommunication and misunderstandings is a very strong desire for harmony with and love for our horses. At least at a subconscious level we know that we will progress so much faster when we learn to listen to each other, especially when we disagree. :f: :f: :f: :f: :f: :f: :f: :f: :f: :f: :f: :f: :f: :f: :f: :f:
Thank you so much to all of you who are willing to engage in discussion, even when it's "risky", to help me get closer to that beautiful vision of harmony that I have. :l: :l: Birgit


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 10:47 pm 
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:friends: hi Josepha. :f: :f: :f:

i did not take any offence to your post, i love the way you have explained things. i noticed how only our words were different. :friends: i love your saying about a rose with any other name. :f: :f: you are wonderfully knowledgeble, and i have learnt so much from variouse different posts that i haev read from you. your clinics must be brilliant, because you are a fantastic teacher.

leigh and annaliese, you are both such beautiful people, i totally an sipping the tea and having some cake, and enjoying the fragrance of my beautiful bunch of flowers. :^: :coffee: :giveflower:
and i do feel the love :love: :love: :love: :l: :l: :l: :l: :l: :l: :inlove: :inlove:

donald, i just love your posts, you really give great thought to things. i will have a look at the dvd that you are talking about. i know that there are alot of negative thoughts about NE, and to a large degree, i share them. but i also, much like you, find that you can learn from these sourses. i think that even though the main teachings of these are pressure and release, there are so many good things also. i used these and many different dvds, in my teachings for my school. i believe that you take somethings and you leavesome things, but they are not totally bad and horrible, just different.

some of the sources that i have larned from growing up, have been pretty aweful people really. but they still had some good things to teach. as well as that, i found that listning to them, and hearing a different perspective gave me understanding as to why they do the things that they do.

NH, like most areas in the horse world, is so very different from pat parelli, to monte roberts, etc etc. i think that they have much to teach, and i love watching them and learning, but i will not do "one method" i do not believe that any one person is totally right. i think that they generally have found the et way for them, and are always learning and improving themselves.

what these people have given though is a large step up from the ways that were befor. there has to be steps, we are improving and learning every day. so NH, i feel, has progressed people, and made it common knowledge and brought an improved knowledge to the people. now, people can just keep on improving on it and finding kinder and kinder ways.

Birgit, you are a truely lovely person, :l: :l: :l: :inlove: :inlove: :inlove:

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love jessy


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 11:27 pm 
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Let me clarify my position on negative reinforcement as practiced in the horseworld.

Those that do it well seem to have advanced both the effectiveness of it for performance, and improved the horse's lot considerably ... in fact monumentally compared to a century ago.

That said, there is, as far as I can see, nowhere further to go with pressure release methods.

A departure took place (one that I understand by comments here and there Pat and Linda Parelli are exploring) with positive reinforcement, one of the principles of AND thinking, where we ask the horse to participate.

But what I fear will happen, and doubtless has, is that "asking" with +R easily degenerates quickly into -R when one wants results and demands them.

So this tremendously valuable tool, +R, can be so easily misused.

AND, on the other hand, if misused is obviously being departed from.

I'm not sure AND is at this time significantly firmed up into a full set of principles of horse handling ... more will come I'm sure.

Yet it is clear enough in the philosophy (I'm particularly taken with Josepha's description) for it to be a code of conduct MORE than a "training method."

AND seems to me to demand, at least of me, a continual attention to my ethics in horsehandling.

[[ In fact, at times when I am with Altea, or my dog Rio, if I find myself pressing them, demanding, I can almost feel the moderators and others here looking over my shoulder going "tsk tsk tsk, Donald, tsk tsk tsk." ;) ]]

Because relationship normally includes some elements of negative reinforcement, between equals, I expect there will always be that element even in AND.

Where the philosophy is tested is in the intent of the practitioner.

I guess and example might be seen in my one of my favorite horse and horse owner scenarios.

The trailering of the horse.

My horse has an injury and I need to get her to the vet, as I do not want to prolong the amount of time for bacteria to grow and multiply in the wound and move more into the bloodstream.

Will I use, and is it ethical to use negative reinforcement if that is what it takes to get her in the trailer and on the road?

I doubt even the ardent AND proponent of asking and accepting "No" as an answer from the horse would fault me for using negative reinforcement if that is what it takes.

Another similar scenario:

I have a date to go and show some of the things my horse and I do together as a result of using AND principles of equality, play, respect with my horse. She decides that she will say "No!" to the trailer today.

Consider: I have a chance very possibly to introduce and win over others to what I believe is the next evolution in horse to human relationship, but my little horsey doesn't know, and doesn't care.

Would I be justified in rejecting AND principles and go ahead and use negative reinforcement, pressure/release, to put her in the trailer and go to my appointment with a group of people waiting for us?

I am about to go and tell people that if they would only treat their horses with respect and as equals in the relationship they will enjoy the things so many AND practitioners enjoy.

And trust me, I'm so good at it, pressure/release methods, that I could do it in under one half minute, 30 seconds at most.

What would YOU do?

How important is the relationship to you?

Donald

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Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 1:57 am 
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;) Donald, you have asked such brilliant questions.

i want to add to this. i have had to use negative reinforcement on a very regular basis. pressure and release is a great tool that i have used in many situations that required it. i also am very very good at it. i think that it would be wonderful to always use positive only, but in some situations there is no time to build relationships. :sad:

many of you know that i have done rescue horses all my life. we have had many many situations that call for haste to remove a horse from its current situation. i have had to use a range of tecniques to accomplish this. here is an example of one situation.

(i am thinking about starting a rescue thread, because on NHE i had one and i thoroughly enjoyed talking for my horses and telling their story.)

one of these is Gemma. when i went to see her, she had been starved s severly that she could barely raise a walk, most of her coat had fallen out, she was suffering sever dehydration, severe parasite (worm and tick) infestation. ( i have never seen a dock so covered with paralisis ticks, that she staggered, and her tail was limp and floppy) she had trieds to eat the barbed wire fence, and had severed her toung half way across, which the owner only discovered when it made a clinking sound from the bit!!! :evil: :evil: :evil: she was on her final legs. she was breathless, heartrate was terrible, and chronicly exhausted. :sad: :sad: :sad: :sad: :sad: :sad:

we had a small window, where the owners had agreed for us to take the horse away. life experience is that people often change their mind quuickly after rethinking the risks of this, so we had to act fast.

this horse had NO trust of humans!!! she had not long ago had a severe floating accident where she fell and became cast with her old owners. :pale: (probably fell from exhaustion) so she was terrified of floats. she had lost appitite from being so starving, and sick, and so we were not able to coak her up.

i used negative reinforvement after exhausting all other options. :huh: i know there was no other way :sad: . i had no time to build trust, and time was running out :sweat: . i have had so many horses that suffered abuse that most do not know possible, and to get them away from the owners, i do use these variouse methods, and i sometimes feel deep regret for it :sweat: :sad: :sad: , but i do what i feel i have to, and all my horses forgive me, after a while at my home, and i am sure that they understand :huh: .

i am happy to say that her story did end well. she made it, i dont know how. but it took great diligents and many many sleepless nights doing the night shift with her. i had to give many needles and paste her and wash her, and i had to do so many terrible things that she did not appreciate, but she did recover and built a relationship with one of my students that permanently leases her from me. this ensures that she will never be sold, but she has a home for life.

i have rescued horses that have dents in their faces from crowbars, that have been beaten, starved, injured and neglected. i have stood in front of a man with a gun who wanted to shoot his horse for the show of it, and i have had to take horses that have learned to fight back, because their owners threw things at them, and were so abusive because they thought that they were "bombproofing" them!!! :evil: :evil: :evil: i am not telling you this to make you think good of me, i know that everyone on this form does, and would do the same if faced with this situation, but i am trying to ask the same question as donald.

in some cases where the horse has become so used to abuse, and responds to nothing less than agression, in order to remove them from the current situation, how far would you go to save its liffe??? ;)

donald is asking is there a comprimise sometimes, and has given some examples, and i am putting the same question from a different angle to you.

i think that the best way is the kindest, AND promotes, (i think), the best way, but are there situations where this is not possible? ;) has anyone else had this happen where they are faced with a moment to make a huge decision? i am going to post a pic of Gemma now, with her young friend. Gemma chose her, and they are paired, hopefully for life.

Image

Image

Image



also, this is sam. he is the one that was going to be shott for a show for a group of people that had gathered to watch the horse shooting :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: (there is no angry enough face to show this feeling!!!) this is sam!! this is my favorite photo of him, because this is where he loves to be most.

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love jessy


Last edited by jessplum on Fri Jan 30, 2009 2:11 am, edited 4 times in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 2:03 am 
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Romy wrote:
jessplum wrote:
the mare called, the herds all came galloping. i walked forward to about 10 meters in front of the mare and filly, and all i had to do was lift my energy, lift my hands and ask the galloping herd to stop. i stand with belief that they will listen, and they did. the entire herd stood in front of me, and i was able to walk backwards and beckon them to another area while the filly and mare were taken away.


That is exactly what I mean when I say that for me it is a situational thing. :smile: And in this context what you wrote here...

Quote:
i did not use agression, but i do believe that i can. this to me is agorance, not because i arogantly believe that i can control them, i cannot. but i believe that they will listen because they know i will only do what is best for me.


...is what I would want to do, too. BUT, and that is the important point for me, that is how I enter my little herd when what you call arrogance (and I maybe call energy or expression of confidence, but what's in a name) is necessary. When I need them to listen to me. I do not have this confident expression (in the sense of knowing that they will listen to me) when there is no reason for them to do what I say and accordingly I don't feel that arrogance, like in our training when I suggest things but it is completely up to them to listen to it or not. Then I don't want the slightest bit of arrogance to be involved. It's just neither the feeling I am having nor the message I am trying to send out then.

From what I saw in your videos I am sure that we don't actually differ in that point. :)

I am very happy to be able to read about your experiences with your herd. That is SO interesting. You are right, it seems like not many people here do have that many horses. But it might be good to remember that over here everyone is talking about his own situation. When Kate writes how she is doing things with her horses, understanding this as something that she does herself instead of as a judgement about or instruction for anyone else might help to see it as something that you can take or leave, without making inferences about anyone not knowing what he is talking about... because what she talked about was her way of doing things, and there she clearly is the expert. ;) If you feel that this is not what you want for your own interaction with your horses, that's just fine. Nobody is suggesting to take over her opinion or her ways.

I really appreciate your writing about your interaction with your horses and I can understand that NHE probably made you feel like others wanted to judge you. But this is not the case here, so no need for defense. :)

Warm Regards,
Romy


hey, sorry, i edited my post about using agression, because when i read it, it did not eway what i thought i was saying. i dont think that i can use force, i just meant that i use visualisation. " i feel that i can" ( not force or agression, but i feel like i can do the job!! :blush: :blush:

and i think thay know i will do "what is best for THEM :blush: :blush: i did not mean ME< :blush: :blush: i just misstype when i am tired. i will read my other posts too, now that i am not feeling so bad and tired. :love: :love:

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love jessy


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 2:09 am 
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:f: :blush: :f: :blush: too much posting, sorry all.

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love jessy


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 3:46 am 
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jessplum wrote:
:f: :blush: :f: :blush: too much posting, sorry all.


There is very little judgment involved here. And people post at a rate that suits them, and what they are doing in the moment.

I am external processor. That is my predominate means of problem solving is to talk about it, write about it, and put it out their for others to see, and they don't even have to comment if they don't wish to, or they can if they chose to.

As I read what you said it struck me that you were externalizing to organize your thoughts. Many of us here do that. I shall not name them, they know who they are, and are laughing their heads off even as they read this. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Your posts are interesting. You are in the right place to express these concerns, questions, comments, ideas, history, etc.

By the way, I want that shooting target pinto. Sam is so beautiful it almost hurts the eyes to look at him. Some people cannot stand beauty around them, and seem to have to destroy it. The same people throw drinks cans out on forest roads and trails, spray graffiti on beautifully designed buildings, shoot up wildlife they do not harvest for food, and similar behavior.

I am glad I was not there. The man or myself would be dead.

And I have shot a number of horses myself. Horse in great pain, dying, horribly injured. But a healthy horse? The most dangerous horse's I've ever handled, in the end, because I knew my talents were not sufficient to break through their deep distrust of humans, I simply turned into the wild of rich pastures, and places to hide. On ranches of friends of mine that appreciated the work I did do with them before I declared them dangerous from fear.

Shoot Sam? Good for you. And brave.

What you point out is the same question most of us, probably all for that matter, have asked in the light of AND. What will we do to get a horse to safety, or help him when the circumstances are such that their is not time to ask and wait for the horse to agree.

Not that I don't do that first. At least now; now that I know AND.

I think my question about that held the answer in the question. But the other one, the one where "my agenda" was about ME, not about the horse, even if I was doing a good thing, even if it was for horses in general. In other words, is my agenda more important than the horse's if he and I are equals?

And where "the rubber hits the road," as we say, would I apply this to my human companions, valued friends, and my intimate loved ones?

In human terms and situations, we might decide that for the other's sake and "intervention," is appropriate and put pressure on a person. My wife does this about my health, pushing me to make my doctor appointments. And she keeps the pressure on, -R, until I do it.

But if she wants to go for a drive to the ocean and I might not, does she put the pressure on and not let up until I agree?

What do you think?

(Hint: Kate and I have a well seasoned relationship. One I hope is based on mutual respect more than anything else).

I am always fascinated by the adventures of certain of our AND members in their training diaries because they do so much respectful asking. And so little coercion.

Donald

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Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 4:10 am 

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I had an idea today that I was not sure where to post, but it's related to what we have been talking about here. If it fits better elsewhere I'm happy to have it moved.
It's the idea of stepping stones or bridges. We all have an ideal in our heads how to treat horses and none of us have quite gotten to the goal yet. Because we all have different backgrounds we all need to make a connection between what we already know and have done before coming here, I'll call it point A, and where we (individually and as AND) want to go, I'll call it point B. While we may all have a similar point B, our point A is hugely different. We can now either focus mostly on how to get from our point A to point B, in this case we will help ourselves, our horses and a few others who are similar to us. Or, we can have at least the long-term goal on AND to make point B reasonably accessible to a far larger crowd of horse people who have never even heard of AND right now. This might sound a little bit like I'm saying everyone on here should be a teacher of the AND approach to horses. That's not what I mean, at least not teacher in the traditional way, maybe more teaching by example and finding the stepping stones to people we meet. I guess I have this vision that within a couple of years AND could be as mainstream in the horseworld as positive reinforcement is in dog training, not the only show there, but the most widespread. When I started training dogs 20 years I was part of a tiny minority of dog trainers using primarily positive reinforcement, now it's a small minority who uses primarily negative reinforcement.
I'll give an example: I have talked to one person this past week who is currently involved in rodeo, has done barrel racing and now does team roping. She is very exited about the possibility of riding bridleless, having seen some of the bridleless reining by Stacy Westfall. When she heard that there are people who will ride bridleless but do not start with a fully trained (finished) horse she was interested. She realized what an incredibly trusting relationship with a horse it would take to even train a horse to a high level without a bridle. She hopes for that perfect relationship with her horses just like we do. Now, she clearly has long way to go to fully appreciate something like AND, given she is competing at a high level, around people who work their horses very hard etc., but through several stepping stones, incl. possibly Natural Horsemanship, the best and kindest of Western training, getting to know the goals of dressage in conditioning the horse etc. she might be willing to read this forum, not this month, but maybe next year. If we all can make an effort, each in the area of skill and interest, to find the best in these stepping stones we will be able to connect at a meaningful level when people come here to look. That's why I appreciate people looking at the best that NH has to offer and I also want to look at the best that each other riding style and discipline has to offer. The best person to teach a horse rescue person about AND is someone who knows horse rescue. The best person to teach an eventer about AND is someone who knows the best that eventing has to offer, the best person to teach a cowboy about AND is someone who knows the best of training working cow horses etc.
I joined the NHE forum this past fall because I knew I needed to learn from people who I won't agree with in some areas. It was very much worth it. I left and joined here, because I know it will be so much more worth it, because now I have a place to send all my friends who are exploring better ways, no matter where they are right now.
I wish I had been able to better articulate my thoughts in this, I just see it so clearly :smile: and can't put it into words very well. :sad:
Birgit


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 4:14 am 

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Quote:
As I read what you said it struck me that you were externalizing to organize your thoughts. Many of us here do that. I shall not name them, they know who they are, and are laughing their heads off even as they read this. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Really, Donald, I never, ever, ever do that. :D :D :D :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 4:55 am 
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Birgit wrote:
Quote:
As I read what you said it struck me that you were externalizing to organize your thoughts. Many of us here do that. I shall not name them, they know who they are, and are laughing their heads off even as they read this. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Really, Donald, I never, ever, ever do that. :D :D :D :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:



:yes: LOL you all!!! and it is why I feel as though I am whispering so quietly no one hears me -- but of course
I'm a introvert who only writes what I have thought out and nothing more -- and probably leaving out half the words!!!!

shy mouschi smiling


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 5:43 am 

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Quote:
I'm a introvert who only writes what I have thought out and nothing more -- and probably leaving out half the words!!!!

And sometimes that's a really good thing. You just continue being yourself, or change, either way is fine. You have helped me so much. :) :f: :f: :f:
I always get myself into trouble because I sometimes change so quickly that I'm literally having to say: please don't remind me of the nonsense I said last month. ;)


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 8:44 am 
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jessplum wrote:
:friends: hi Josepha. :f: :f: :f:

i did not take any offence to your post, i love the way you have explained things. i noticed how only our words were different. :friends: i love your saying about a rose with any other name. :f: :f: you are wonderfully knowledgeble, and i have learnt so much from variouse different posts that i haev read from you. your clinics must be brilliant, because you are a fantastic teacher.


:blush: :blush: :blush:

Thank you, imagine this being the first thing you read in the morning :ieks:
:kiss:

Quote:
i know that there are alot of negative thoughts about NE, and to a large degree, i share them. but i also, much like you, find that you can learn from these sourses.

No matter what experience I had on that forum... I shall always admire and by grateful to Mr. Nevzorov for sturring my guts so I finally dared to act out on my secret fantasies!
And well, if some on the forum had not annoyed the crap out of me, Bianca and Miriam, the AND forum would not have excisted, so we have them to thank for that as well in a way. :applause:


Quote:
i think that they have much to teach, and i love watching them and learning, but i will not do "one method" i do not believe that any one person is totally right. i think that they generally have found the et way for them, and are always learning and improving themselves.


I so agree, and it also part if the AND philosophy and the fact why we do not call it a methode. :yes:

The last few days I caught myself fantasising...flying out to you, staying with you for weeks and just watch you with your herd and learn....learn, learn.... :*:

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 12:54 pm 
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Quote:
The last few days I caught myself fantasising...flying out to you, staying with you for weeks and just watch you with your herd and learn....learn, learn....


:blush: :D :blush: :D :blush: :D :blush: :D :blush: :D

could you imagine!!! i would just love to meet you! but i would probably become an embarrased blubbering fool :blush: :blush: i get really nervose with a camera on, and i make heaps of mistakes, and when i have someone watching me that i look up to, i am even worse!!! :blush: :blush: :blush:

i just imagine that we all live close together, that we are a force to be reckoned with!!!! could you imagine any one abusing their horse in our neighbour hood, if we had all the AND members living in the same area. we would have power!!! :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

Josepha, let me know if you are this way.... we dont have a great amount of room, what with the horses, cattle, pigs goats, sheep, chooks ducks, rabbits, guineapigs, birds, cats and dogs!!!!! but if you can squeeze in, you are most welcome!!! :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 1:39 pm 
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jessplum wrote:
could you imagine!!! i would just love to meet you! but i would probably become an embarrased blubbering fool :blush: :blush: i get really nervose with a camera on, and i make heaps of mistakes, and when i have someone watching me that i look up to, i am even worse!!! :blush: :blush: :blush:


Maybe it is me who should look up to you :green:
But do not worry :) I am the same, but as soon a horse is in my area, things change and I can perform what I need.... as any horse in my presence just makes me 'be' not 'think' :f:
I am sure, the same will apply to you as soon as you're with your herd.
You shall forget all about me, I won't be present I promiss :)

Quote:
Josepha, let me know if you are this way....


I have not been invited for a clinic in Australia yet.
But this time, I would be doing the learning, not the teaching which is completely different.
Where you at, girl? :D
It is on my list to learn from you and the herd, for I have had a long desire to study a large free herd, and having a human like you present... well, the chances of ever finding that again must be as slim as winning the lotery!

I do not think this year... for we already are probably going to South Africa and probably Canada.... And we are going to sell our house this year and build a new one, and and and so many things... but I am thinking, if Ralph agrees that is, 2010. (But I am sure he does for nothing pleasures him more then free animals...)
Maybe we can make it part of our honeymoon :)
I wanted to come to Australia before long!

Quote:
we dont have a great amount of room, what with the horses, cattle, pigs goats, sheep, chooks ducks, rabbits, guineapigs, birds, cats and dogs!!!!! but if you can squeeze in, you are most welcome!!! :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:


Coincedental, I so like to squeeze in between horses, cattle, pigs, goats, sheep, chooks ducks, rabbits, guineapigs, birds, cats and dogs :love: and so does Ralph. Thank you, thank you for inviting me... I am afraid I'll have to take you up on that. :D

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 10:23 pm 
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:D :love: good morning!!!

:applause: :applause: i think that would be great. i would really hope by 2010 that i would have finally sold my house and would have built my shed! :pray: i really would like to be out of my mums granny flat befor then!!! :pray: :pray:

i am in the hawkesbury district! i used to be in a small country town called Collombatti! but i had to sell my house there. i think that i really loved having my herd therebetter than here, as now we have the thirty acres here, and the big turn out paddocks up the road. so i miss not having my herd galloping up to my house. it really was thrilling!!

can you imagine the middle of the night, and the sky filled with stars, and a beautiful thundering of hooves echoing through the night. i used to get up and run out and just stand in the night and the horses would all gallop around me.......... :sad: ohhhhh, i miss this soooooooo much!!!!!

but i have a bigger herd now, and they are all becoming as close. (even though i have to drive to see them) but where they are is magnificent!

here are some pics!!! :love: :love: :love: :love: :love: :love: :love: :love:


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iwill go out today and get some photos of the whole herd, although i have not found it easy to do this. the herd is often in several smaller herds, unless there is a problem, and at the moment about 20 horses are here, birthing, socialising young with people, playing games with us, we bring them home to foal or to have learning time. the ones that have foaled we keep here till the young are comefortable with people, going on and off floats, picking up feet, etc etc. then when they do this they have about eight months out in the herd then we bring them back in, with the next mummies in waiting.

i always have my very old horses here, they look after the herd of young and expecting. we also have to break the herd to bring the "fats" in. some of my rescue ponies get very very very fat in the pasture.

up in collombatti i was hand feeding everyone. i would call the herd up and say "in your pen" and they would watch me closely and file into their pen. it was magic. i would put them in pens according to feed requirements, normally two or three per pen, then when they were finnished i would let them out.

i am scared of the dark, (of people in the dark, not animals) so sammy would walk me to each pen, then stand at the back gate till i was in the house. i am sure he did this because he knew that i was afraid. :kiss:

but here, the turn out paddocks have great feed, and i do not need to do this, but we do it here at home. it teaches the young to go calmly in and out of pens, and builds a great relationship. :D anyway, i think i hold the rtecords to the longest and most boring posts. i think that i will start a post called "herd life!" what do you think????? ;) ;) ;) ;)

_________________
just keep swimming, quote from nemo!:)
love jessy


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