The Art of Natural Dressage

Leigh,

I'm still digesting your post -- but I wanted to apologize because we seem to kill threads after wandering away from the original subject --

Empathy to me is pure experience. Not 'feeling' what someone else is feeling (as in experiencing the emotion personally- contradicting myself here-- or perhaps feeling the physical response of the emotion instead of feeling it in the head - arrgh this is ard to say in words) as much as breaking that boundary and becoming. An empath has no control over boundaries for that moment in time. Perhaps the boundaries click on for protection after the fact? Then empathy turns into the understanding that is the usual definition? I think sympathy can grow into empathy the longer one lives (or is taught).

On the horse's side - I have to admit that whatever horse I had at the time of a fresh young-love infatuation was bright and sparkly

You've had some awesome experiences on your path Leigh --

Which I'm bad about, sorry!

I'll try to be brief --

Cool, Mouschi, oooh! Aha!

I think I understand the difference of what I was talking about and what you're talking about -- about the definable "empath" and their process rather than what the psychology community defines as empathy...and I think we were talking about different things.

I think all of us probably have some ability as empaths -- some more than others (and I'd guess most of the people here tend more in that direction than many communities).

I'm understanding your point about emotional investment differently, given how I (think!) I'm better understanding what you're saying.

I personally experience empathy as a combination of experience, as you've talked about, and an emotional process, coupled with imagination. I agree -- I think in those moments of pure experience, there aren't any boundaries -- but for me, at least, those moments are fleeting, like a glimpse or a "hit" of something...and part of what makes it confusing, as I try to parse out my experience of it, is that it's often a feeling that hits me in that way, so the emotional stuff seems to be intertwined -- I know some people talk about it as vibrations, but it feels more emotional to me. BUT -- that's a big part of how I process the world, so it makes sense that in those moments where a rush of energy/an image/a vibration comes to me, it comes in an emotional way...

Maybe the kind of empathic experience you're talking about is the part of empathy that's related to mirror neurons! I obviously have no clue, but it intuitively makes sense to me that it could -- but I also think that the emotional/empathetic imagination aspects are really important for most of us -- because it processes/opens/amplifies?? that neurological process?

Shutting up now.

Please return to your regular programming...

An attempt to make amends... how would the behaviorists among us talk about empathy?

Best, and apologies,
Leigh

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"Ours is the portal of hope. Come as you are." -- Rumi
www.imaginalinstitute.com

No apologies, no apologies.....

I am following this and thinking about it.... I have thoughts about it but not really sure what or where - but very interested in this line of discussion.

Its a really interesting question...'where do I end and you begin'...... and something I get to play with in my work as therapist. Some senses, empaths or intuits that I make are spot on, scarily so! Others are a fabrication of mind...... I am always asking the question 'how to discern, how to discern.....'

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To put down everything I think I know about horses and to listen!

Isn't it wonderful to be able to be aware of that??

Mouschi, thanks so much for the link to youtube
These posts are so interesting.
Jo, to try and get back to NAC a tiny bit, apart from teaching me enourmous amounts what they have done is helped me learn to be more discerning although I do still feel I am swimming around in a great ocean at times it doesnt feel like Im drowning anymore.
I have just ordered the book by Betty Shine, A free spirit gives you the right to make choices. Im looking forward to reading that.
The experiences I am having with animals feels like empathy but dare I hope is something more. Certainly there are occasions where these emotions do not feel like they belong to me.
Not very coherent but like everyone else, I am still trying to digest the posts I have just read.
I did finally manage to post my introduction today after losing it all various times so Im feeling good about that!
Colette

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http://www.equinissimo.com

I can hardly remember a time when I was not involved in the question now being considered.

I majored in related college course work that I applied to the question.

And of course both observed, experimented, and questioned and read others thoughts.

I have stayed away from answers that might be in the realm of the supernatural, though I don't deny or defend. Any definition I've seen of the term shows it's armored against analysis and scientific method.

I accept that.

This said, however, my attitude pointed me toward the macro and micro possibilities, and compounds of both.

So that is where I went.

We know now, and have for a very long time that we are wired ourselves (let alone our horses being wired similarly) to pick up signals through our sense that we are not consciously aware of.

And these enter into the micro category. We respond to molecules. Now that's micro.

Put a few molecules of sexually related hormones in the air and we respond, often without being aware we are doing so.

Put a few molecules in the air that are related to the body's reaction to threat, and once again we respond.

Sometimes this can help explain why we have unexplainable reactions, a sense of something, but only our reactions to examine.

Considering, if you hold with evolution, the millions of years of pressure on us, and survival being the prize, it seems logical to assume ourselves, as the organism we are, would develop extremely keen sensors.

But why would they operate a lot outside our conscious awareness?

To get around our over processing and the risk that puts us at.

If I am wandering the Savannah, and have a sudden wild urge to run to and climb the nearest tree, and don't follow up my urge, I could be dead in a few seconds. Lion food.

Or it could have been nothing. Or a stray wisp of hunting lion scent in a few molecules. So practice climbing the tree is a good thing. Even if the lion does not show up.

We live longer, breed more, have more progeny genetically predisposed to climb trees when the sudden urge comes over them.

Most this scenario to the horse.

Now how many times have we seen horses suddenly stop and gaze off in the distance? If we are with them and trusted most often they will discontinue and go back to feeding. But in the wild, one or two will do this, give a low nasal sound and the herd will collectively begin to move off.

I presume in the direction away from where the scent or sound or sight is located. Those that fail to do this are no longer represented genetically.

Using binoculars to watch horses in the wild I've seen this again and again, and if I waited along came a coyote or pair, trailing the horses.

Once a mountain lion. More times than I can count, a bear.

And those times I saw the herd suddenly bolt and run wildly off? The predator came in downwind, usually in a gully out of sight, and stalked very softly and slowly, until they had to come out in the open, or the wind changed, or they made an error in movement and produced a noise.

What does this have to do with communication?

We are, if I understand the paleantologists correctly, descended from pack humans. Organized on similar lines as canine packs. Not exactly, of course.

But we, like horses, and dogs, read each other at extremely subtle levels. We communicate.

You know you have had someone speak nicely to you, sweetly even, and it made the hair on the back of your neck stand up. Either the speech pattern (choice of words), tone of voice, tone patterns, body posture, facial expression, or possibly a scent from them gave away that this person was dangerous in some way. Predator.

So, does this extend to the horse-human connection?

I've said from time to time to individuals, that the horse was reading very subtle signals, communication, from the human.

It's why, many years ago, as I thought about it, I decided to no longer be the stoic silent horse trainer I was at the time. I began to talk to horses because I believed and still do, that as we process verbally we tend also to follow with our body ... in any or all of the ways we have to communicate besides just words.

Example: I'm down with a fearsome cold. Wrung out. Cleaning Altea's stall this morning I had one last pile I'd left to the end because it was behind her as she stood aligned with the wall with her head in her feed bucket.

I asked her to "move over Altea." She ignored me. I put my hand on her hip and shoved. She move, but slowly, reluctantly and even with some resistance back against my hand.

I stopped, thought about it and said, in a way that I think reflected my exasperation, my weariness, my sickness, my desire to get out of the cold, all the things I was feeling, "Please move over."

Not loud. Not even with what I could identify as an imperative in my voice. Just my weariness and thinking about the relief I wanted.

She quietly moved completely over to the other wall of the corner.

I thanked her and continued my morning stall muffin meditation, as best I could.

I believe that if we are genuine, that is make the effort to be in touch with our inner state of being in the moment, even stopping if need be to review what is up with us, and THEN communicate to the horse, even not speaking at all, just standing, or sitting, or whatever our position, and wait, their brain will sort out the incoming signals and read our communication.

The fantastic aspect of AND is that it is practiced by us so often as a trust building association that all the garbage that comes with orthodoxy in horse handling is finally sloughed off. Letting go of the pressure. Asking and waiting and accepting non compliance, accepting what is offered even if it's not what we asked for are among those relationship building activities we engage in.

In other words, we like our horses. Our ponies. In fact, at risk of embarrassment, I can say we love them to varying degrees, with all that can entail in motivating us to develop a deeper relationship that the orthodox methods can.

So our communication moves to a very different plane. More of us is read and understood by the horse. Conversely we free ourselves up, and are motivated, to pay attention, to attend to the horse, in ways we read them better.

Another great advantage to AND is that we have each other to support this and explore this and nurture this new model of communication.

In my mind, as I consider Altea, and other horses I have been in contact with recently, the Red mare, three students horses, the foal waiting to be born, and I think about communicating with them, I work on forming an AND Paradigm like the one I am attempting to explore above.

Yes I do talk to the foal, and Altea about the foal as well.

We'll see where that goes.

I see in Altea what I think is a desire to communicate, to understand me more fully when I "speak," to her. I'll have to continue to ask her to show me how this works.

Is it a supernatural connection I'll never know the mechanics of, or is it the unconscious levels of multi-sensory communication we evolved?

Tough question. One I'll never have the answer to, likely.

But then, I don't mind.

I am pleased though that others seek answers to the same concept: human-animal communication.

Donald

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Love is Trust, trust is All
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So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.

Lovely Donald.

I can say that I regularly have undeniable telepathic communications with people; sometimes I can direct the thoughts, sometimes I must be open enough to receive it, often in the half sleep/awake of waking in the morning. And complex ones too. In a simpler way, I can often provoke people who I am connected with, to call me, and I love this party trick!!!!! Especially when it works - the phone bill is their end.......

I am under no doubt that these things are possible with the horses and I have been experimenting with trying to transmit pictures - especially with Karena as we have had a long term relationship and are very connected.

The biggest problem is in the discernment, again!, of the fabricating mind and the actual reality. Sometimes the mind 'wants' too much and then we are at the mercy of our imagination. The trick is to relax the mind enough and concentrate the mind enough, just as you describe in moving Altea over. This is truly subtle.

I am also very familiar with energetic movement and in the same way, the ego must be put down, or no can do! This is what I am really keen on - the play with the horse through the energetic, oooooh that makes me so excited! I have been studying internal energy forces work for 15 yrs and I know exactly what to do with it - just need to get a completely open trust channel going on with Noodle and then we are in a different realm........ That's what they mean by heaven on earth.... exactly that!!!!!

_________________
To put down everything I think I know about horses and to listen!

Jo, I will follow your learning and work keenly in the future. The subject fascinates me. I've no investment in disproving whatsoever.

I simply equate the "super," in supernatural with, "what we as yet do not know scientifically."

Nor do I have to have scientific proof of things to use them, or accept them. I'm very open to demonstration and to accepting or giving more weight to those I trust and respect.

Not much would get done if we had to have scientific proof before we utilized anything in nature. Electricity is a good example. We used for a long time before we understood what an electron is and what excites it and causes it to exhibit energy, that is to move, heat, cool, etc.

I'm convinced that you are doing what you say you are doing.

I'm not convinced about how, nor do I need to be, to believe what is happening with you is indeed happening.

I can go on forever on the question of how, but I refuse to let it stand in the way of my examining what is offered in the way of "what," right now.

So please continue and continue to share what you know and experience. If there is yet another direction to go with horses (among
other creatures) I don't want to miss the ride.



Donald

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Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.

Donald... I am totally with you......

I have steered away from the supernatural too! And treated it with some caution!

However, just as you say, the whiff of a few molecules is enough to trigger a sense and a response, that is ostensibly 'under the radar' but ne'ertheless can now be understood, I too think is true of a greater subtler communication which can carry over distance and time as if it were not there.

For me, I started to perceive more 'stuff' after I practised meditation with a Master. I dismissed it initially but observed it out of interest. Sure enough, over time I have learn't to trust it more and have had some extraordinary experiences.

There is always, however, the caveat of imagined and real... one must have great discipline and discernment and there is no room for thoughts of specialness or self-grandiosement (is that a word????). I am not a Master as I remain too undisciplined but I have touched some curious stuff.

When we truly work without ego and attachment with our horses they will show us what there is and I think AND calls for that. It comes back to the questions of perception and what we overlay upon the horses; that we see what we project. We are truly trying to listen here, so there is more chance of us discovering some generic secrets of 'horse'. Our horses will always point out our egoic nature if we are willing to hear it. And therein lies the trick!!!!!!!

_________________
To put down everything I think I know about horses and to listen!

I am sorry not to have read all of this thread but would really, really like to recommend http://www.hartshorsemanship.com/ for +r. He is coming to us in April & May (near New Forest. And is going to various other locations throughout the year. He is a great guy, with little ego, is entertaining and knowledgeable.