The Art of Natural Dressage

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 12:20 am 
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Can you put it on photobucket or youtube?

Thanks

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 9:15 am 

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Thank you sueblue for your comments! :)
It must have been a wonderful experience to meet him. I am looking forward to see any videos if you are able to put them on the internet.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:22 pm 
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One more:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TJkDYo1BPA
let's discuss it please! Because I'm not sure what to think about it ;)

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:53 pm 
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If this really is Maestro Nuno which is really difficult to see, than I am very heavily dissapointed.

The horse is constantly heavy on the inside rein and therefore heavy on the forehand especially on the inside shoulder.
The only thing I liked about it was when he loosened the reins... The horse could finally breath...

I saw a croucked and heavy seated rider totally focussed on the front of the horses, using heavy rein aids all the time.

Furthermore I have to say, that yielding this type of horse every which way is not difficult at al.
I know, since I own one.
They are so sensitive and elastic!

It really can look to some that the rider is really great but the same rider on a typical warm blood would have far more trouble, I promiss.

What is difficult with this type of horse is having them in front of the vertical and using their back.
For that you really need to stay clear of the front, nothing more than the lightes contact, that truly is more than enough.

For the rest you only need your pelvis and buttocks, not even so much your legs, that sensitive they are!

Again... if this is Nuno.. I do not get it.
A complete contradiction to what he states in his wonderful book which I read over and over again...

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:55 pm 
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First I have to say that I know very little about riding and dressage, at least what concerns the theory part. And I know nothing about Nuno Oliveira. So maybe you shouldn´t take my comments too seriously. ;)

I love his seat. Although it doesn´t look as straight as many people would want it to be, I get the impression as if he was completely in the movement.

What I do not like is the expression of the horse. It looks ways too much stresssed for what I prefer.

This video shows exactly what I mean when I say that in my opinion the mental part of collection is so important. I see no collection in this video. No pride, not a horse that grows taller. Only a position.

I also have a little bit a problem with the pressure and corrections that he uses, for example from 04:00 to 04:40. The horse is clearly trying to do something else than he is supposed to, but is stopped by the pressure. The things he does do not seem to come out of himself and be his offers, but an attempt to avoid pressure.

So altogether, what I see is a (compared to some other dressage people) subtle rider with an unhappy horse.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 5:58 pm 
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Looking at his head, it must be Nuno, or the Pope... the previous one, of course ;)
Maybe if the video was of better quality, we would love him, or hate him... here it's hard to judge if the reins are tight or not. The horse may be carrying his head like this naturally, maybe because of concentration it looks to short?
I tried to look at this video from different points of view. Firstly, from my recent exercise; I really like this idea of sideways in such "serpentines"... looks like more fun than doing it only straight (like Branderup). And he fluently changes from shoulder in to sidepass to haunches in... but I don't like, that the horse spends so much time bent to one side. Finally he does change, but it feels too long... my neck hurts me when I think of this ;)
The best impression I had when looking at horse's legs. It seems, that Nuno concentrated mostly on them, too. It seems that the horse concentrated mostly on them, too... the steps are quite regular and the "pattern" is really complicated... I guess that he wanted the horse to read his cues, not repeat things from memory... so not "doing without thinking", but all the time listening to the rider...
I also looked at the other videos and it seems, that he does train in this way, something what Nevzorov does too. Permanent collection. They want collection to be "default" behaviour. And they both want high collection. Isn't it too much stress? I always have the same doubt. Some people would also say that it's fake, because horse should collect only to do something, not all the time. But we know what is the other opinion - they collect to carry the rider, which is enough as a reason...
Of course, the worst feeling I had when looking only at horse's head. It looks like having problems with breathing (but every horse wearing bit looks like this). I think, that he would have better result if he allowed the horse to raise his head, and to put his nose in front of vertical. I'm curious, how it would be like if he had no bridle at all. Would it be possible to do this exercise, in this pattern? With Avra I'm now using the cavesson, because it will be my bridle. I haven't tried without it. In NHE, I saw only pirouette, from similar things. This is interesting. Right now, I think that we will try this with Avra... and maybe it would be good as one of the first mounted exercises? As for Nuno Oliveira... I think that he does understand horses and collection, but he is just one of those who use force to get their result... although they know how to use it ;)

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 6:07 pm 
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Ania wrote:
I also looked at the other videos and it seems, that he does train in this way, something what Nevzorov does too. Permanent collection. They want collection to be "default" behaviour. And they both want high collection.


I am a little bit confused, so I watched the video again... Sorry, maybe I am blind, but I don´t see collection there. At least not what I thought to be collection. :oops: Is THIS really collection what he does?


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 6:33 pm 
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Perhaps it's rather work in progress... he works on hind legs, other people would start from head carriage... having an excuse that they don't control the head... it's always hard to judge. There are some clicker trained horses, which look so fake, although their "frame" is collected and the reins are loose, and they carry their riders well. In a sense, that collection is mobilization, the horse looks collected; he is all the time able to do levade, piaffe or whatever like this. On the other hand, he's stressed and not free in his movement. Which happens for horses without bridles too. Probably it depends on what behaviour we want. Or how we want to exercise the horse. I would like him to do the same, but a little bit less. Not so visibly. And for shorter time... for example, in Branderup video the release was immediately after the horse performed.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 7:36 pm 
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I'm afraid I don't see that much collection either... The inner hindleg is crossing closely in front of the outer hindleg in the sideways turns (especially at the first minutes), so they don't really collect. You see a similar thing in the piaffe later on. The horse seems to be on the forehand most of the time, but I don't know how new this training is to him. so it might be that he is still working on it?If this is the final collection though, I would be a bit disappointed too, even when just looking at the quality of movement and nog at the tack and how that's used.

I do know however that Nuno has said that his bad posture should be blamed on his age and backproblems, and he seems to be quite old in this video already.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 7:43 pm 
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Another video from when he was younger! And working from the ground too:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtFm-1NT ... re=related

His seat is much better over here, but myself wouldn't really want to ride with my hands against the saddle/stomach all the time. It looks quite stiff, and you have much less room to respond to the horses movements. But that partly is a question of fashion too, as in the book of Sylvia Loch (which I should still return to Josepha!!!) it's described that this 'navel to the hands' is an essential idea in his training system. It means mostly that you hollow your back against your hands in order to follow the movements of the horse, but in the videos it does look like the hands become a bit stiff because of that.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 7:54 pm 
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I still have to fight when I ride not to do that, for when I think belly to hands, I hollow my back and I can not rotate my pelvis and there for not follow the horse's movement.

Bu still most of the other things Sylvia said are grand!

When I was at the centered riding clinic they said mt posture was wonderful... if I were to be on a high collected horse, which I was of course not since Owen had not been ridden for a year...

Wishfull thinking :)

But boy, what that Sue Leffner changed for the better in barely two weeks, one our a day!

(I never knew or former Pope could ride ha ha !)

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 8:09 pm 
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Look, here is something like a first part of the same?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gy4Y8dyl ... re=related
And here from the description:
Quote:
Clip from the DVD, Nuno Oliveira: in HIS Words of Nuno riding and teaching from 1950's to 1988 to be released in 2008

Here the horse's rump looks almost like popping up... his hind legs so straight at the beginning. Maybe I really don't want to criticize such person... and he is speaking, but hard to hear what.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:57 am 
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But it seems, that we were disappointed with the previous videos too, and that people generally admire these new ones... so probably it's just how mr Oliveira worked, so probably it's just how it works... then AND is indeed a lot better, if this is the best of Oliveira :lol:

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 9:46 am 
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I must have adored it 5 years ago... but my perception and goal in working with horses has changed.

If one is into soccer, one does not fancy footbal as much...

But I'll adore his books forever.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 2:19 pm 
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Which of his books do you prefer best?

Sue Leffner is suppose to be coming to Quebec next Spring. My name is first on the list. :D

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