The Art of Natural Dressage

Hi Caro,

In order to protect your mailbox from the horrors our modern world wants to put in it, I deleted your mailadres from your post as people can find a button in your profile which sends messages to your e-mail directly.

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New horse book: Mandala horses!

Never stop making mistakes! Natural Dressage

Hi Caro,
I can try to answer your questions. The answers are not really secrets at all At least they were to be found even in the open forum about half a year ago. So I do think it is ok to post them here.

Those pictures of AN were actually posted by someone on the NHE forum. It is no secret at all, that Alexander comes from a "traditional" dressage background. I believe it was about 10 years ago that he started to search for a better way. So he did experiment back then of course. At least one of his horses was already trained with the bit.
As far as I know, all of the Nevzorov horses have been ridden with bits before they were bought. One at least is a ex-racehorse. But when you have a look here on the AND-forum, that already should help you believe, that it is possible to teach a horse without bits and spurs from scratch

Now you mention "pressure and release". I see that as something tricky. That topic was discussed on the international NHE forum also. I think it is tricky, because "pressure" can mean so many things and comes in many ways. I do not know if there is already a topic here about pressure and release, if not, maybe you would like to start one even.

The international NHE forum and school is a internet school mostly. In Russia, people can go, visit and watch AN on a regular basis. Most of the international Reps did not have a chance to visit in Russia and if they did, just for few days. But everyone with the "Class" title is said to be trained via internet directly by AN. We were told, that AN does not know English that well and everything has to be translated both ways (mostly by Lydia). Therefore he has not that much presence in the international part.

I am already for about half a year away and of course things do change all the time.

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Andrea
http://www.youtube.com/user/FinhorsesAndPinscher
http://basichorsemanship.blogspot.com/

So many people come away from the NHE forum feeling like they need some revenge...even if that is only to speak one's mind in departing the NHE forum - a little "getting it off my chest", even if you don't expect to inflict any damage in the process.

The trouble is, the questions you are asking will not make them feel bad, nor will they be answered. No matter what you do, you will not find the satisfaction you're looking for. So is there really any reason to ask them?

On the other hand, there are those who come away from NHE really needing a shoulder to lean on and a kind ear to hear them as they work through the emotions and ideas they have held onto (or that were drummed into them) while in NHE - such feelings are welcome discussion as long as we do not bother to "NHE bash". There is no point, ever, to wasting energy on this, or to harboring or spewing negative energy - it only breeds more negative energy. Besides, many here will tell you they still thank NHE for the inspiration to begn the journey.

So AND is like a warm, healing bath. Breathe deep, take in the fresh air, love your horses and begin to accept that you can (and should!) make this journey a very personal one without anyone dictating what your path should look like. It's an exciting journey and half the fun is figuring it out for ourselves.

No one other than Alexander himself has the answers about how he trains, now or in the past, and since he is not on the NHE forum, you will not get an answer. Any anger you throw at them while you depart will wash away like water off a duck's back. They've heard it all before. They don't seem to care. They are impervious to verbal darts! And perhaps well they should be. They are what they are. They don't need to change for the rest of the world. We simply don't all fit in there.

So they are who/what they are. Most of us here still admire the ideas that AN has presented. Regardless of how he got to that point, it's still extremely cool.

Hi Caro,

If you've read back up this thread you know of course what a sensitive subject NHE is.

While I myself "stepped in it," so to speak, we prefer, I think - deferring to the moderators on this point, that critical discussions of other methods, systems, and personalities in the horseworld invite the very kind of rancorous exchanges that take down other kinds of forums, horse related or not.

On the other hand, having people to share with over what are perceived problems you have experienced is a good thing.

Doubtless there are a few that would like to discuss this with you.

Your invitation will most likely be taken up. This brings me to a second point.

I've learned the hard way that posting an e-mail address, unless it is a throwaway, on a website attracts "bots," as in robotic harvesters (often referred to as "spiders") of e-mail addresses that are then peddled to various commercial as well as cracker interests (as in illegal hackers) that will go after the account and try to access your e-mail and you and your computer for not so good things.

The least of which is commercial, the worst of which is to turn your computer into a sort of zombie clone to produce more spam from to send out into the world.

Or to plant Trojans, worms, virii, and other nasties on your system through your email account.

We have in the AND forum, and this avoids the problem above, a PM button at the bottom of every post, right next to the Profile button.

You can have private conversations there. I presume the moderators or administrators could have access but my understanding is they simply do not look at private messages.

Highly trustworthy folks IMHO (in my humble opinion).

If you have concerns on the NHE issue you an trust the moderators to give you good advice on how to deal with it here. The welcome screen names them for you.

Though I see they haven't as yet added the profiles of the new moderators. These are the originals, the founders and administrator.

http://www.artofnaturaldressage.com/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=4

http://www.artofnaturaldressage.com/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=5

http://www.artofnaturaldressage.com/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=8

Donald R.

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Love is Trust, trust is All
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So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.

First, thanks Miriam for deleting my email, and Donald for your info on what can happen when one posts one's email address. I posted this one because I have about 4 email addresses, and one is personal for close friends only, one is for when I shop on the internet, and the other two are kind of catch-alls, so that's why I didn't think twice about posting it. But you're right... I still don't want to receive hundreds of spam email so you did the right thing deleting it.

Second, to all of you who replied, yes... I suppose there is a little, tiny "I want revenge" or at least, I gotta tell them what I think, feeling in me. I admit it and you hit the nail on that one. I know I can't convince them. I've seen arguments on the forum and there is always an 'answer' from them that is unsatisfactory. So.... sigh... I will try to let this go.

I was aware that AN had trained the traditional way originally, but I had no idea that anyone ever saw him work with his horses. That was never on the forum. And I don't doubt that horses can definitely be trained without bits, spurs and force to do amazing things, including advanced dressage moves. And also, I am grateful to have found the video of AN (and I own one of the videos), because it IS amazing, to see that such things are possible. That is what got me on the road to wanting to change my relationship with my ponies. But then I see the videos of some of the AND members (on youtube) and I'm even more amazed. Because here is the information (in the forum) and there is the process (on youtube) and it's not some big secret or just a finished product. I always understood that in NHE there were no lessons, that it was more a philosophical way of thinking, and then finding your own way to apply that. But when I read here that there were no new revelations the higher you got into the forum/school, I thought, well, what's the point then?

This is why I'm so happy to have found AND... it's not secret, it's not judgmental and keeps the idea of seeking a truly more equal partnership with our horses without the extremes, WITH open, shared and RELEVANT information.

Ok, consider this dropped I will not post about NHE or AN anymore (ok, unless it becomes a new topic in the future and comments or posts about experiences are invited). I'm shedding my negativity from NHE, my 'revenge' feeling and only looking forward to learning from you (and my horses).

thank you all!

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Caro

Big hugs, Caro.

I so look forward to more news about you three.

Donald R.

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Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.

And its so much more fun putting all your attention on your horses cos they'z wot brought you here! All that energy on you and your horse instead of fighting someone else's neurotic states! Tee hee!

Welcome, from one who knows where you've been!

Let the fun begin!

xx

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To put down everything I think I know about horses and to listen!

Michael Bevilacqua will be producing a video soon. Here is what I found on his website.


"Videos
Proceeds of these DVDs help promote the prevention of horse abuse

Soon available!

DVDs demonstrating and explaining how Michael and his horses learn and play together.

Various examples within live video footage of how to develop a true communication. One on one. No force. Just trust and understanding.

In the moment, with live practice, and how to handle when things are not so perfect! Real, live examples of how to break down that barrier between human and horse.

True friendship is not developed with ropes, halters, but with heart... and simplicity.

Coming soon... "

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Madeleine

Sounds lovely! I will have to watch for the release of the fillm!

When is it due? I would love to see it!

I'm also interested in to which anti-horse abuse organisation the proceeds will go?

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New horse book: Mandala horses!

Never stop making mistakes! Natural Dressage

There are new photo galleries on their website...

http://hauteecole.ru/en/photogallery.php

amazing, like always!

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"Never just follow the crowd." Margaret Thatcher

Whehew, I just looked at '2008 Portraits etc.'... What a beautiful saddle-blanket! I just love red and gold, and the design is just stunning.

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New horse book: Mandala horses!

Never stop making mistakes! Natural Dressage

Ah, teaching the horses latin There was that horse "Beautiful Jim Key" http://www.beautifuljimkey.com/history.htm
Jim was most famous in his times and showed his skill to read, spell, recognize money, and do basic arithmetic to the public.

I thought such might be something nice to try when the weather is really bad outside

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Andrea
http://www.youtube.com/user/FinhorsesAndPinscher
http://basichorsemanship.blogspot.com/

Oh, that´s interesting. There was a horse like this in Germany too in the beginning of last century, the famous "Kluger Hans" (smart Hans) with his trainer Wilhelm von Osten.

He was supposed to be able to do arithmetics and was quite a public attraction... until one day someone put the trainer behind a wall (or curtain) so that Hans couldn´t see him while he was receiving his tasks but only heard his voice. Suddenly all the arithmetic talent was gone. It turned out that the horse had always reacted to the change in his trainer´s expression and body language as soon he had been close to the correct number on the board where he had touched the numbers with his hoof.

Now he is the example for reactivity and the possible resulting wrong interpretations of research results in first year psychology classes. The horse himself ended somewhere on the battlefield of World War I.

I always thought that it was totally fascinating though. Not that a horse can read or calculate, but how they can react to subtle changes in their trainer´s expression and bodylanguage that no one else will notice.

Yes! I had heard that Hans the horse was cueing off the man's eye brows moving up and down???

And it is so true that often we 'think' they are attending to a particular cue, especially verbals and discriminations, when in reality they are cueing off some part of our bodies, or with horses, respond to even minute pressures!

Brenda

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http://www.youtube.com/user/Lucy04574
http://www.youtube.com/user/Jack04574