The Art of Natural Dressage

I still think they have the right to keep their forum as they like and others just have to adapt or leave.

I agree with you Marko.

I like your positive attitude!
Sue

_________________

I have not sought the horse of bits, bridles, saddles and shackles,
But the horse of the wind, the horse of freedom, the horse of the dream. [Robert Vavra]

Personally I AM grateful for having found NHE. I am also quite happy that they are making people think - not with their way of moderating their forum, but with the videos at youtube, the DVDs and the countless discussions this has provoked in various forums.

For me it is not the point if I trust NHE or Alexander. I am thankful for the inspiration, whether they are trustworthy or not. It´s my task to take out what I can use for my own training... so even if it all was a fairytale and Alexander trained in a way completely different to what is said there - that doesn´t change anything for me.



What I love about our forum, especially compared to NHE, is its friendliness and acceptance of other people. I wonder if we really have to destroy that positive attitude while we are talking about the bad consequences of destroying it that become apparent in NHE?

There are not many rules at AND, but I think one of them is so very important, no matter how we personally feel about other people, methods and forums: to stay friendly in our posts and not talk about others in a dismissive way.

It´s easy to vent one´s anger and sometimes it even feels quite good. It poisons the atmosphere though.

Well, I think most people who have expereinced NHE can make a very clear delineation between AN and what he has done, and the NHE forum. They are not one and the same. The original idea may have been exactly that, but it didn't work and never will.

Everyone you talk to about NHE will say they found something beautiful in it. Everyone will say they found inspiration, new ideas and the foundation for a new beginning there. That is not BS. That is truth. If, in our discussions, we could clearly separate AN from NHE, which is rationally easy, but emotionally difficult to do (like church and state!) then this would be a different conversation.

I can understand the frustration people can feel on behalf of all our close friends here in this forum, but to state that NHE is BS, is actually an insult not to NHE, but to all of us here who found a new beginning in the ideals of Alexander Nevzorov.



Exactly! Whether or not what he does in reality, is different than what we see in the videos, the photos, or eventually the books, really doesn't matter. All that I do with my horses is grounded in the ideal that Mr. Nevzorov gave to the world - what he gave to ME. Not the NHE forum, but the photos and the videos. I was and still am blissfully inspired by them.

The NHE forum is a different animal entirely. But please, everyone...Romy is right, but for more reasons than she mentions. It's not just the atmosphere of AND that suffers from a closed mind of any kind. We can learn valuable and positive things from even the worst of trainers if we look hard enough and adapt what we learn into our own philosphies. You never know where inspiration will come from, so one must always have the eyes, the mind, and the heart open.

My friend and trainer, Paul, saw the positive in the videos when I expected him to focus on the negative. He saw the potential, he saw the beauty of it. He ignored the fanaticism and saw through to what was beautiful and spoke it out loud. He respected what he saw, even though he didn't agree with all of it.

I will never, ever rely totally on this forum alone for my inspriation, and I will forgive those that made me feel bad at NHE because they are human and not unlike myself, have weaknesses and fallability and faults and warts and can be a misguided as anyone else. So forgiveness, really, is easy...in part because the price was NOT too high for what it gave me in return. A few emotional bumps and bruises was actually a small cost for the change in my life.

That was my point, actually. We needn´t agree. We can feel about NHE in any way we like. If Karen, I and several other people are thankful for the inspiration and you see that in another way, that is perfectly okay.

What is not okay is calling other people or methods BS or talking about them in a dismissive way here. That´s not only my personal opinion, but also as a rule of our forum. Please remember that when you express your opinion.

I must tender my apology to you Romy.

I realize you were simply doing your job as moderator.

Please forgive my intemperate language in response. And in my original post to this thread.

Sincerely, Donald

_________________
Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.

I think it is quite unrelavent whether one likes AN/NHE or not.

I personally do not need to hear how people feel about NHE or their forum. But it would unrealistic of me to tell people off the moment they blow of some steam about having had a bad experience with NHE. For we all need to do just that, blowing of steam about certain things and we need to do it to 'ears who understand'.
For it would not do us any good blowing off steam about this in particular on a regular dressage forum. for instance.

As it is a reality that a lot of people who come here do have experience with NHE, we can not act is if it does not excist.

And least of all, I would want to ban subjects or make people feel they can not express them selves freely.

But I have to say in all fairness that I wish I could somehow make the endless negative discussions about NHE go away (from this forum).

Lots of people inspired me and AN is one of them. Or should I say, images of people and horses have inspired me.
What they do, think, eat or drink is not of my concern nor relevant to the fact that some images of them have inspired me to something that has brought me joy in any way.

And for the rest I have to agree with Marko... if one does not like the party one has come to crash, be it on invitation or not, leave. It is up to the organisers to decide what drinks are served and which music is played.
And if they want you to leave the party without any appearant reason, they still have the right to turn you away, don't they?

Maybe one is offended, that is only natural.
But since the world is filled with parties... is it really something to dwell on?


Let's get back to the AND party as you are all invited to drink whatever you want, as long as it makes you and your horses happy

Warmest regards to all,

Josepha

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www.equusuniversalis.com

Well said, Josepha. I do agree.

And my apologies for so poorly wording my response to this issue that I have hurt or offended.

Mea Culpa

Donald

_________________
Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.

no one culpa, let's jus move forward

_________________
www.equusuniversalis.com

Hi Donald,
I know how much you care about all of us here, and how upset you feel when we are hurt or disdained by others. I'm imagining that perhaps some of the strong feeling that you are expressing comes from your desire to protect and stand up for us. If I'm right, thanks for your support.



I'm sure that Romy DOES realise this.. in fact, I understood that this was entirely her point.

Romy is not dismissing your position. You are entitled to it, and as you state, there are many others who share it, or a similar one.

(Although my impression is that those who've experienced NHE first hand mostly have a very high esteem for the training method and the training abilities of the man it is named after. The FORUM.. well.. that's another bunch of bananas..)

She is asking you to modify your language as you have noted. And in her new role as moderator,I think that is exactly what she must do. If she does not, it sets a precedent that others can follow, and I think we would all agree that, however despicable the target, this is not the kind of direction we want AND to take.

I imagine that must have been very hard for her to write, as I know how much she respects you, and I'm sure she would dislike being the one who has to draw attention to the "rules". And I also imagine that right now she's feeling awful that she has hurt your feelings, while trying to do her job and nurture the forum that we all love so much.

I know that you know the rules! And I know that you are a very good communicator, so I can only imagine that you must yourself be feeling very hurt to use such strong language and then respond to Romy in such a way.

Actually I think, (and I guess you know this.. so apologies in advance, I hope you can forgive me if I sound patronizing or dismissive) that the problem is not so much in the STRENGTH of the language, but in the way you are presenting the message as fact, rather than as your opinion..

This, specifically, is one of the guidelines of how to post here. "Ownership" of feelings, opinions, ideas, impressions, IMO , is an effective way of expressing all the negative stuff that just has to come out sometimes, without continuing the negative cycle.

I hope that you're feeling a lot better today.


And Romy and Karen... I really appreciate your willingness to take on the jobs of moderating this forum. Luckily, most of the time we don't bite much, so I hope we don't give you too much trouble!


Sue

_________________


I have not sought the horse of bits, bridles, saddles and shackles,

But the horse of the wind, the horse of freedom, the horse of the dream. [Robert Vavra]

Yes.. the pm function IS working.. and I'm working on my PM..

Donald,I'm assuming that this comment is for me.. so...

Well... I did consider posting privately.. but in the end put it here, because what's here is already here, public, for all to see. For example, the comments made to Romy are here and public. And I want to go on record publicly, with how I feel about that. I've tried to do it in a way which reflects how much I care about and respect all concerned.. I hope that comes across in my post.. but I know how difficult it can be sometimes to convey the exact tone that we intend.

We could all have a little play with our edit buttons..what do you reckon? And put it down to a bad hair day?

With affection!
Sue

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I have not sought the horse of bits, bridles, saddles and shackles,

But the horse of the wind, the horse of freedom, the horse of the dream. [Robert Vavra]

Let's just all

And call it a day...

(not a bad hair day as my hair for once looked rather good )

And let's give an extra to Romy who has not been chosen a moderator for nothing

And a big to Donald, who is like a knight in shining armour to all us AND myladies here.

_________________
www.equusuniversalis.com

Wow, so much has happened here while I was away... I am just so happy with the way you resolved all that, everyone of you. I just wanted to say that I have no bad feelings against anyone. Donald, I really appreciate that you want to protect us.

As Sue said, I am not happy about reminding someone of the rules. I would be more than happy if neither rules nor moderators were necessary here. But I remember too well how all this negativity from NHE or the German dressage forum where I had been last year had made me feel. I was kind of afraid to look into the forum every day. Not because of the content, but because of the way people were interacting and attacking each other and how they were talking about other people or methods. Maybe I am a bit hypersensitive about that. A friend of mine still writes in the German dressage forum and says that she doesn´t care about their tone - she just overreads it or shoots back. But I am the kind of person who needs harmony. Not agreement, but mutual respect. It would just be the last thing I wanted that some people from NHE were reading or even actively participating here (as some members do) and had to read that their beloved NHE was bullshit.

I am sorry if I have offended anyone. I really didn´t mean to. All I want is to help keeping the warm and open atmosphere that people love our forum for. As Sue and Josepha said - let´s call it a day and let´s just try to be more careful next time, so that things like that don´t happen too often here.

I am totally in agreement of Donald...

I can in no way understand why you all are so protective of the forum that threw you all out with no reason, that caused so many of us so much pain. That is NOT like a normal forum at all - but draws you into a net where you hardly can find your way out, until they ban you of course. Where love is empty words to hold you there, where friends are only friends when in full agreement, where methods remain secret for all who participate....

I do have a few good friends there still. And of course all of you in here who was in there. But NHE is not a normal forum....

So, Donald gave me a huge laugh with his post.... Thank you Donald...

I am happy to be banned. Because I KNOW - that if I was not - I would suddenly find myself there again. Even if I know how much pain it has given me and that my life would be better without it (except I learned A LOT about horse-management and hoofcare there). Any other forum I take part in is a free choise of staying/leaving. But in NHE, with it's cultish like structure, you feel condemned and abusive if you leave. That's not what I call a free choise....

Sorry - I just HAD to.... I have good memories of NHE as well of course - especially with those few I called my best friends and whom turns their backs at me at first disagreement... I am still very sorry for this, because it is people whom I love, despite of the long distance and internet-connection only. But when I see what NHE did to them - and to me a period - it is not even right to call it BS. It is dangerous to people....

I thaught I was through with all NHe-talk now - had no urge to talk about it anymore. But I am fully with Donald in his post and can in no way see why you all reacted so much to it - even though he has apologized....

Oh - but Romy, I understand completely you get a bit oversensitive after what you experienced. And maybe that is just what I get here too - feeling we canæt talk freely if we disagree anymore in here eiterh. We have to put our words right, not express our feelings out free if they don't match (as Donald's did not)... I am sorry if that is the case. I just felt like saying it anyway....

I understand Kirsti.
But still your feelings are your own as are the feelings of people who feel different about NHE/AN/The forum etc.

There can be no discussion about personal feelings and experiences really.
It is like saying I do not like paprika.
Well, that is of course fine, but others may like it and that is fine too, no matter how much reasons one has for disliking paprika.

The (one and only?) rule of this forum is:
state opinions and feelings as your own. And please let's not dwell on what others do wrong in our opinion. A. It is only an opinion and B. What use is it to focus on what is not to one's liking?

Let's get a move on with things that actually have positive influence on us all, and achieving our goals.


(Again I stress out that I do not want to ban any subject at AND, and that I understand that people need to blow of steam coming from a forum where they feel they have been mis treated. However, one has to ask one self how relevant these things are here.

I myself left a forum where I was for over 7 years. I was moderator and I found many friends there. I have left feeling disconnected as I did at a classical dressage forum and the NHE forum.... It was very painful to me. But I saw no reason to burdon you all with this. It happened, I told some friends and now I move on.

:

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www.equusuniversalis.com

I regret having made the statements I did in the way I did.

My sentiments, personally, have not changed. I believe the actions of people at the NHE forum (this is where I was not clear enough as to whom I was speaking about) were unconscionable.

My lack of clarity on this was obvious. And to me, now, is obvious.

There is little left that I can do, since I cannot take back my words, to correct the impression I left other than to say that it was not my intent to attack AN, or NHE. Though it was my intent to attack the actions of some unnamed people there.

It has been requested a number of times that we drop this subject and move on, yet still we have not.

May I add my own request that we do, indeed, among valued friends, as we are to one another, simply drop it now?

I am terribly embarrassed.

Please.

Donald

_________________
Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.