The Art of Natural Dressage

And thanks from me too. This is something I've been thinking a lot about lately. I'm still thinking I can have the best of both worlds, or maybe just some of both. My experience with the one horse I've trained is mostly like Danee's. I will sometimes ask my horse to do something she does not want to do and will use a small amount of pressure, far below the pain threshhold, to overcome mild resistance, for instance I might want her to go forward while she wants to graze. I will put just enough pressure on the reins with a halter or sidepull that it's getting a little uncomfortable for her to continue grazing and when her head comes up I reward her. Then I'll give a light leg cue to ask her to go forward again while holding the reins short enough that her head can't dive all the way down again. I will overcome mild resistance in situations where I'm fairly sure that I'm just inconveniencing her, not hurting her by going from asking to insisting, in other words I will not pressure her to do things she can't do yet, physically or mentally,nor will I persist if there is a chance that she refuses because of pain. I agree that horses very often refuse to do things because they have good reason (pain, fear, confusion, distraction etc.) but I believe there are also times where they would rather be lazy, please themselves, feel moody etc. I think in those cases a little pressure is ok as long as the horse knows it will not escalate to pain. It is indeed similar to teaching children that they can't always have what they want at the moment. And yes, it does mean submission. In a herd of wild horses the same thing will happen. Occasionally someone has to decide, not all the time, but the role of the leader is to keep the rest of the herd safe, and the leader is the one who has proven to be the most qualified to keep the herd safe.
Domestic horses are forced to live in an unnatural environment, some very far removed from a natural environment, living in a box with an occasional hour to exercise, the luckiest ones on many acres with other horses. This means that they depend on us to varying degrees to provide the right food, shelter, exercise, socialization with cars, dogs, people etc.
Because of the unnatural environment that many horses live in, their natural instincts to do what is good for them have been modified. They may not know when to stop eating the overly rich pasture we provide, they may have gotten out of the habit of exercising enough through play on their own years ago. They may have to learn to tolerate handling that is unpleasant or even painful when the vet visits. If we are strong confident leaders that can be trusted to never be abusive our horses will see us like another dominant but fair horse. I love Mark Rashid's book about passive leadership on this topic.
As long as I can use mostly positive reinforcement with my horses (and I think this goes for other animals and people too) and only occasionally use fairly mild negative reinforcement (at least a 10 to 1 ratio) I don't believe the relationship with the animal will be hurt.
If I want to encourage creativity, the horse suggesting things to me, could I not find a cue that means "show me what you can do" or "your're the leader" and then give big rewards for every creative act. I could also find another cue that says "not right now" or "I'm the leader now". I've been experimenting with this for several months this past fall when I took my horse on trail rides. When I was in a safe, huge open space I'd just give her the reins and let me take her for a ride for several minutes, to do whatever she wanted. In a sense she had more freedom with me on her back than I could give her with me on the ground, hundreds of acres to run around on or just running from one patch of wild oats to the next. I have to say she's very calm by nature and if she was higher energy I might not have been able to do that. I'd love to hear what all of you think because I just have a theory with not much experience to back it up with other than what I've learned from my dogs.
Birgit

I could not agree more on that horses also refuse to do things because they just don´t want to, but for me right or wrong can only exist in relation to goals. And in my training with my horses I do want them to express when they just don´t feel like doing something. What feedback could be better for me as a trainer and help me more to improve my ways?

In our interaction there are also situations where I would use pressure and insisting if the horse did not react, but those are situation where safety would be compromised otherwise, like standing on the street. Oh, and a few situations that are not necessarily unsafe but that I just don´t want, like eating grass on our walks all the time or fighting when I am around. But for me our training is just not a situation where I want them to obey. There are several threads on leadership that might be interesting for you:

Equality
Being a leader
Leadership and/or friendship?
What is leadership?

There are other leadership discussions in some of the diaries (Adrienne, Patrice, Faith...) and some are hidden in other threads. And there are threads about control and obedience, as well as several threads on pressure.

Great topic. I have been thinking about this a lot too in light of reading up here. Watching my mind work, trying to understand how my nature in concert with Belle's will interact. Again and again I find myself getting frustrated in my head, not even being out there doing. I want to achieve things, I want to be good at this. I want to see Belle find natural balance (I have never seen her in natural collection- never, and I watch - she looks like the big gangly saddlered she is at liberty). In under saddle lessons, we have achieved collection. I wonder if that is the only way to build the muscle she needs to do this more and on her own. If so, is it worth pushing her? I have a gentle teacher and she has taught me to be incredibly light in my seat. Am I hurting? Helping? Can I achieve anything like this from the ground? Are these desires ambition or partnership or both?

Most important is bottom line. WHat do I want most of all? A certain kind of relationship and to receive what comes naturally from it, whatever that is or isn't? Communication? Achievement, be that conditioning for the horse or fill in the blank with any human ambition/desire for me? Shades of gray.

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Looking for the beauty in the truth and the truth in the beauty.

Thanks Romy,
I will read those topics and I'm sure will get lots of food for thought. And I do agree that it is very valuable information if my horse tells me she just does not feel like it. I know that I might want to find a better way to motivate her or let her show me what she is more interested or talented in.

Strangely enough with me it is exactly the other way around.
I never ever wonder if the horse should always say yes.

What I wonder about is: Should I?

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www.equusuniversalis.com

This is a question I've really wrestled with in the time I've been exploring AND, and I'm excited to circle back around to it!

On some levels, my horses always having the option to say no (or as close to always as I can get, barring such things as vet care, foot care, etc.) is my goal, and feels to me like one of the enormous differences between AND and pretty much every other kind of training I'm aware of.

I have struggled with this with Stardust because he is much like Danee's horse, often not being sure if he wanted to move, and with a bit of insisting, would find the energy to go. So for quite a while that felt right to me. I was very concerned he was going to lose body condition (something I have needed to stay on top of religiously).

But -- as I've gotten more and more committed to experimenting with how far we can get towards only doing things they say yes to, I've pretty much stopped pushing like that with him. The farthest I'll go is ask a couple of times for lateral movement, for example, and if he says no twice, we move on to something else.

With this, I've discovered something interesting. His body condition doesn't look as good as it has sometimes. BUT -- he is far more willing to move than he's ever been before and far more frequently decides to than he did when I was insisting/cajoling/pestering. Huge difference from when we were training traditionally, and a recognizable difference, even, from when we started to play but I kept pushing. And -- his movement at liberty, when he initiates it, looks better than it ever has.

Part of this is, I think, the slow, gentle conditioning we've been doing working on ramener and lateral movement at the walk from the ground. He doesn't look like a weight lifter, but I think he's got more baseline strength and balance now than he had.

But part of it is, I'm truly convinced, is that by getting out of his hair for a number of months about this, I've given him space to re-discover that movement can be fun, that it doesn't have to be about being coerced. He is far more in his body now then he's ever been since I got him.


Leigh
PS: Josepha, I love your flip around of this question!

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"Ours is the portal of hope. Come as you are." -- Rumi
www.imaginalinstitute.com

I'm a creature of both the imperatives in life, and the freedom too.

If I do nothing but play, play becomes a boor, and my life begins to break down to the point I begin to feel uncomfortable as though I am in danger, or approaching it.

If I do nothing but work the drudgery depresses me and again I feel endangered.

Does the horse have a similar perspective on life.

Do they need to do both play and work, what is fun and what is necessary, to find and feel a balance? Are the rules the same? Are they in danger, as I am, if I do only one to the exclusion of the other?

Are they, as I am, drawn first to one then the other when I have had enough of the first?

Donald

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Love is Trust, trust is All
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So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.

Ooooh, lovely questions, Donald! That's really interesting to think about.

I wonder if they differentiate work and play the way we do? I don't know...

For me, as someone who is trying to find the play in pretty much everything I do, it comes down to different kinds of play and how we define play (I hate work! But I'll work my patootie off playing hard! ). I think focused, goal-oriented play is different than no-rules, anything goes play. And I think there is pleasure in doing both...

Play can be hard work, I think, but there is a sense of joy and self and pleasure in it that is different than something we're told (or convince ourselves) that we "have" to do -- especially for people, and the added artificial constructs of work equaling money...

Some play theorists think of the difference between play and work as the quality of what's happening rather than the activity itself.

Some thoughts from Mark Twain:

“Work consists of whatever a body is obliged to do. Play consists of whatever a body is not obliged to do.”

"What work I have done I have done because it has been play."

“Work and play are words used to describe the same thing under differing conditions”



Leigh

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"Ours is the portal of hope. Come as you are." -- Rumi
www.imaginalinstitute.com

Fascinating,
I also see a lot of my work as play and my play as work, having a hard time cleaning the bathroom and calling it play, though.
Writing and reading this forum is hard work for me, but it's so much fun, right now it's sunny outside and I'm so torn between two kinds of play and trying to stay in denial that there is some non-play-work waiting for me as well, laundry, finances, I guess the outside wins, see ya later,
Birgit

Horseplay - human buddy rolls ball to horse's front legs to be struck.

Horsework - human puts horse in trailer and hauls to vet to check out cough and temperature rise.

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Love is Trust, trust is All
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So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.

In that case, I think I can safely say that my horses don't yearn for work! (Gee, I'm so tired of kicking this dumb ball around...can't we go to the vet, please???)




Leigh

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"Ours is the portal of hope. Come as you are." -- Rumi
www.imaginalinstitute.com

It´s all a question of perception, Pia is learning syringe targeting for example, so now when I stand next to her with that scary thing (closed though so that it doesn´t sting) she will push her neck into it to earn a treat.

Of course.


I had a boss once that was good like that. Trained me with a paycheck, as I recall. Amazing what I'd put up with for that paycheck. Funny though, even with the glee I felt over the paycheck when I received it, the rest of the time I didn't trust him much.

In fact I had a go-around with almost the entire administration of a huge organization about playing sly games with us to try and get us to change our perception of what we were being asked to do.

My response was, "stop fiddling about, teasing us, trying to get us to pretend we like doing this. Just tell us the job you want, and order it, and consider it done."

It was one of those "management by consensus" things that was thought up to help the bosses cover their posteriors, "well, what are you having a problem with, you AGREED you wanted to do it, didn't you?"

My response? "No, I was bribed and threatened. Just as is happening now with your response to me." "Let me do my job and stop with the trickery."

And no, I didn't get fired. I eventually retired.

In the wild the same thing applies, I think.

Horseplay - playing nip and chase, then doing mutual backscratch with horse herd buddy.

Horsework - walking on for mile after mile to get enough to eat to walk mile after mile to the next food and water source. (And a chance to play again another day with my herd buddy).

My original example was weak, and thank you for showing me that.


Donald

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Love is Trust, trust is All
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So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.

Horses do NOT pretend to be lame. If a horse is lame under a rider, and then back to normal, something IS wrong. People who really believes that a horse can FAKE lameness, makes me sick and very VERY provoked! I mean.. since horses are quarry, they are not supposed to show their weakness, because in a wild situation they can't show their weakness as they could not stay with their herd then..

The first post in this thread (the start) - I totally agree! Of course our horses will have to do things they don't really want to, as we have to get their hooves trimmed or shoed, and we need someone to check their theets, and we need to get them out of the pasture sometimes, and in to their pasture. But in training, I never ask again if I know that my aid was clear and possible to understand for my horse too. If I may have not been so clear, I'll may try asking again..

Well what I see is that domestic horses do many things they would never will in the wild (for example, all my horses are sleeping deeply at night at the same time, no ons is watching for predators and the two who are able to lay stretched with their heads on the ground) Whether horses fake lameness or feel like not walking with certain riders... well.. what is faking? I just know that happy horses can endure so much so a bit soreness can come to surface much sooner when a horse is not happy. My Atreyu must be in pain from a medically point of view but she is so happy and amazingly she is only stiff, has no pain.

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