The Art of Natural Dressage

Working with the Horse's Initiative
It is currently Thu Jul 18, 2019 6:46 am

All times are UTC+01:00




Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 72 posts ]  Go to page Previous 1 2 3 4 5 Next
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 1:56 pm 

Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 12:31 pm
Posts: 145
Location: Estonia
I can write here what he does with horses, but I have to emphasize that this is how I see his training.

He enters the training area. He has all the time in the world and that's what makes him so calm and patient. First he doesn't allow horse to come to him. He has rope (which he first shows, then waves and finally throws toward a horse or even at horse if necessary) and whip for that. After horse leaves in a distance and doesn't come to his space he stops waving etc. Classical pressure-release if I may say so. After awhile he allows a horse to enter his space and follow him and horse does it. He becomes alpha for horse. He is very calm, patient and which is most important very predictable. And he starts lunging only when horse makes the first move. He never lunges horse who is standing. When horse starts walking and he thinks it is right he encourages horse from behind with his energy and horse starts trotting.

He never actually is with horse - I mean here doing things together, playing and running together. He is alpha and he tells horse what to do. The trick is that he can do that in the way that horse has an impression that horse himself wanted to do that.

It all makes sense when I watch him. The thing is that this is not my way. I do not like to be dominant and alpha - I like to be a friend - and he can never be with horses like that because horses are not equal to him. In his point of view my horses are (if he would see them) ill-mannered and dangerous, but dominance is really not for me.

I admired his videos a lot (still admire), those magic join-up moments, but they are not that way in a real world. They are outcome of pressure-release and every person can't do it only because most of us lack patience and calmness. That is sure one thing we can learn from him.

I hope I didn't insult anybody, but that is the way I feel. I'll stick to my treat thing, because that is the way I feel myself most comfortable and my horses most happy :P.


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 2:23 pm 
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 15, 2007 2:40 pm
Posts: 4733
Location: Belgium
Thank you!

And I so agree! I do not like being dominant either.
We do not always have to be the alpha (if we can be that for we are not a horse, but we can have sort of an alpha rol I am sure).

Horses play and are friends and take care of each other not being alpha and the one under that!
Not all horses only interact with an alpha.

And alpha horses don't always have to be dominant in interaction with herd members, not at all.

Or so I think... and see...

But still , it seems Klaus is some sort of an alpha mare/stallion in human form :)

_________________
www.equusuniversalis.com


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 6:27 pm 

Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2007 2:31 pm
Posts: 58
Location: maryland
very interesting. I have his two books and his videos and I felt something was missing in both. I did not know how he initially got the horse's attention.

I was a at a Horse Expo with a demo by Chris Cox. They brought in a mare who bit the vet, kicked the dentist, run over the owner etc. the fist thing he did was to walk over to the horse and whacked him with the rope. It was so fast it was barely visible but I could hear it. Several people around me gasped. Bt then he went on to make the horse do stuff and the hors sheepishly kept her eyes on him and did everything that was asked--including the trainer jumping on her bareback and lying on her back. The audience was delighted. I was not sure.

I went home and decide however to try this on y horse. I asked him to circle me Parelli style. He did not. I hit him with a rope. He turned around and looked at me with disgust and said: What in the world did you do THAT for? How about asking nicely?
So I asked slowly and politely and he complied.

So is this the way Klaus tames the wild stallion? Or is it a combination of body language and the rope that bites?


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 6:42 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 17, 2007 11:57 am
Posts: 1983
Location: provincie Utrecht
Oh well written, thank you. It makes a lot of understanding. i can follow you perfectly, i am also not a real alpha i never could because i am to softy :D
i wanna have fun with my horses and play together as a team not because i am THE leader.
And yes there are times that you have to be a real leader or alpha in cases of emergency's and so on.
And yes then i'll be there as much i can, but still not perfect ofcourse.

i can understand that Klaus talking from his own mind and feelings and how its working. That's why we never could do the same. We can not be the same person not a Klaus or Parelli or a Monty. We have our own bodylanguage, our own minds.
We can try to immitate them, but please be yourself then you have the most results.
i like his books and video also but knows that i never could be him or act like him.
And if i had the money i like to follow a course from him.
But he is for me the same as others who i like also to see. Try to learn something from them.

Nice to hear from how you have (how do you say that in english?) withness the course. Very interesting.


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 6:45 pm 

Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 12:31 pm
Posts: 145
Location: Estonia
To Heppa:
Klaus is the master of body language, that is sure. Because of his confidence, calmness, patience and very exact and precise body language he doesn't do with his tools (rope, whip) much and he always lets horses to choose whether to yield pressure or the pressure increases. So he hardly ever has to touch horse with his rope or whip. But the pressure is still there.


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 6:54 pm 

Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 12:31 pm
Posts: 145
Location: Estonia
inge wrote:
We can not be the same person not a Klaus or Parelli or a Monty. We have our own bodylanguage, our own minds.
We can try to immitate them, but please be yourself then you have the most results.


That is exactly what Klaus said! :lol: I didn't feel he was talking to me, because I have never tried to be someone else, but during this course I could see very dedicated followers who wrote down hundred of pages his quotes. :roll: I was sitting there thinking it is not for me, this is not the way I want to train my horses but then I realized - when I didn't try to agree or not agree on his training method, I could catch lots of wise thoughts about life and myself. So he really trained me, not showed how I should train my horses. :)


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 7:40 pm 
Site Admin

Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 7:51 pm
Posts: 2055
Location: Netherlands
Proloog wrote:
I was sitting there thinking it is not for me, this is not the way I want to train my horses but then I realized - when I didn't try to agree or not agree on his training method, I could catch lots of wise thoughts about life and myself. So he really trained me, not showed how I should train my horses. :)


How wonderful to read!

I actually have to admit that I still think its hard every now and then to be so open-minded (because the first half an hour I just freeze with every pressure/correction I see, and then consciously have to force my body and mind to relax, see through the things I wouldn't do myself, and open myself up so that I can actually start learning... :roll: ).

So kudos to you! :D

_________________

New horse book: Mandala horses!


Never stop making mistakes! Natural Dressage


Top
   
PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 9:10 pm 

Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2008 12:27 am
Posts: 8
Location: NW New Mexico
thanks so much for discussing this very important topic.

Why is it that people need to project magical abilities on certain clinicians? It's like the clinicians have glitter all over them and it's only when you get up close you see that it is only another human with glitter glued on.

I believe what makes Hempfling so good is 1) his background in theater makes him dramatic; 2) his attention to body language; and 3) his ability to do micro-releases so consistently that it keeps the horse tuned in and behaving as desired.

Yrs,
Patricia

_________________
========================
No training plan survives contact with a hinny.


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 9:39 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 4:10 am
Posts: 3688
Location: Pacific Northwest U.S.
When I find myself getting too into making horses "do things," as I was so carefully trained to do for so many years, and practiced, I like to go over to the And Lifestyle folder for a few minutes and remind myself it's about 'being' with the horse.

If all I want to do is make a horse do spectacular things I'm sure I have the knowledge to do that.

But is that what I want?

It fascinates me to watch Hempfling and others "do things" with horses. But I find, and I'll bet other AND members too, and you, look for more creative ways to be with the horse from what they watch these clinicians do.

I see here constantly successful attempts to refine the bits and pieces into AND "asking," and "letting be," and "being with," more often than performance made to happen.

Sits gentle on my mind.

Donald R.

_________________
Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 10:04 pm 
Site Admin

Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 7:51 pm
Posts: 2055
Location: Netherlands
I think guru-worship comes from both directions...

On the one hand it's that most clinicians actually consciously cultivate their own image of the only one with all the answers, by constantly stressing their own achievements and exclaiming that all others are wrong. In Hempflings case, he doesn't as much stress his own results, as that he tends to stress that trainers who do things differently haven't seen the light yet because they don't see that they don't have a 'real' relationship with their horse - which is only possible with Hempflings method.

But at the same time you're only believable as guru/man with all the answers if you constantly show the world how humble you are - in most cases done by using the old favorite one-liners like 'The more you learn from horses, the more you realise how little you know', 'I'm not the teacher, the horse is,' 'Don't follow me, follow your own road' (But don't use another method or do things differently! 8) ), learn from every person you meet (but learn from the others how not to do things! 8) ) etc. :wink:

So it's quite narrow line you're walking if you want to be a guru! :wink:

On the other side of the coin however, I think there are also a lot of people who really want to have a guru who they can follow. Sure 'just follow your horse' is a nice mantra, but if you have zero trust in yourself, you won't have any trust in your ability to interpret the signals of your horse either. Or if you're insecure of giving the right reply to everything your horse does, it's so much easier to have 1 plan, 1 method that you can stick to every time, than to realise that there are zillions of possible reactions that might all be good or bad, depending on that specific moment. It's also nice to have that method as a stick behind the door against your horse (however soft the method), because if you just follow the rules 100% and it still doesn't work, then (at least to yourself) you can be sure that the problem is not you but the horse. And some people just really want to belong to something, to be part of something in order to bring some order into the world, because then at least you can divide the world into 'ours' and 'not ours'. Some really need a black & white view. I guess for most people that is a phase in their development as an individual. First you learn to belong to people, then you learn to be an individual, different or against people and go to that extreme, and finally you find the middle ground and be both an individual and member of a group. I think too that there are people who really are into the hero-worship because that way they give someone the status they themselves would wish to have.

I know a very big Hempfling fan, and she didn't accept any criticism or even a simple rewards/corrections analysis of his method either. She was on the NHE forum too and was very much against all the secrecy and Nevzorov-worship (School membership only for selected members, no criticism allowed) while she was there. So she started her own forum in order to discuss methods in an in-depth and open-minded way instead. However, she also was a real Hempfling devotee and even though she herself on was allowed to say that she does things different from him and doesn't agree with him 100% - when other state that they don't agree completely with his method either, her reply is that then they apparently don't understand the greatness and depth of his work and should shut up instead of talk about things they don't know about. The last time I heard about her forum, she was planning to install a special School section for those who proved that they had a deeper understanding so that they could learn the secrets of her method.

Without wanting to judge her, it's hard not to see the pattern, and it really made me realise that the followers play a big part in creating a cult of secrecy and hero-worship too.

When I interviewed Hempfling two years ago and asked him about his past as guru/shaman surrounded by a group of people which strongly resembled a cult, he replied that without realising it he had the role of cult-leader projected onto him by his followers and got sucked into this role because it filled a 'hole his ego' as he expressed it and apparently this status gave him something he needed at that point. Only after some time he realised what happened and what an unhealthy situation it was, retreated from it, did some soul-searching and developed healthier relationships with other people. Which I think is pretty impressive.


By the way, I don't want to create the impression that all trainer-worshippers are mentally instable! 8) :wink: I guess we all feel the need every now and then to have a father figure, the man with all the answers (always men who are the guru's, isn't that interesting!) who can tell me right here and now why Sjors is such a little monster every now and then and what I can do to 'fix' it. And I too see the benefits of a black and white world and just have clear answers for a change. So I guess we all have the seeds for guru-worship in us. The difference is whether we use that to project our longings onto someone and raise him to be the guru, or just stick to wishing that the world was more simple, then sigh and accept that it's a murky life - and then actually be happy that it's such a colorful and rich universe! :D

_________________

New horse book: Mandala horses!


Never stop making mistakes! Natural Dressage


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 10:34 pm 
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2007 8:20 am
Posts: 6076
Location: Dresden, Germany
Miriam wrote:
I guess we all feel the need every now and then to have a father figure, the man with all the answers (always men who are the guru's, isn't that interesting!)


Are you a man, Miriam? Or how do you explain that if there was a guru for me, it would be you? 8) :lol:

No, just kidding of course, but for myself I can not say that this is true. Maybe because my development was different: at the age of twelve I realized that what I was learning in the riding club was not what I wanted. At the same time I didn´t exactly know what I wanted, only what I was against.

Then I got a horse from someone else and it was like "train him in whichever way you like, but make sure that we will be able to ride him in a better way then we do now afterwards". So my first real teacher was a small Haflinger-Arabian mix, I had almost no knowledge of any methods and gurus and I had to figure out how to work with that horse.

One year later I got the next horse with the same instruction (slightly different, because the owner didn´t ask me to train, she only said that she had no time for the horse and I could do with him whatever I wanted) and another year later I should work with a horse that was just started under saddle, also completely without any instructions other than "please do something so that we can ride her in a better way".

So my "method" developed from experimenting altogether. Maybe this is why I have read less than ten (or five?) horse books in my whole life, I have never watched a horse DVD etc. Maybe this is why I think that I can learn from everyone, but I have never felt the need to follow anyone. Sometimes this was embarassing as a teenager, because when people asked me which system I was working with, I had to tell them that I didn´t know and that it were the horses who would shape my ways. It´s the same now, only that I don´t feel embarassed by it at all anymore. AND is the first thing I can refer to as a way in which I am working - but I can only do that because it is NOT a method with clear instructions and single solutions.

But back to Hempfling: I think that I can learn a lot from him, because he is so great at using his body language, which is my main training tool as well. I never agreed with everything he said and did, but I have never seen any other horse trainer either where I could have said that I wanted to train exactly like him. I prefer to pick some pieces out of their methods, present them to my horses and see what they will say about it. :)


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 12:45 am 
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2008 12:03 am
Posts: 1351
Location: Washington, Maine USA
Proloog wrote:
I hope I didn't insult anybody, but that is the way I feel. I'll stick to my treat thing, because that is the way I feel myself most comfortable and my horses most happy :P.


YEAH! So glad to hear you say this! Me too! Thanks so much for posting!

Brenda

_________________
http://www.youtube.com/user/Lucy04574
http://www.youtube.com/user/Jack04574


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 12:59 am 
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2008 12:03 am
Posts: 1351
Location: Washington, Maine USA
Romy wrote:
But back to Hempfling: I think that I can learn a lot about him, because he is so great at using his body language, which is my main training tool as well.


So, these questions is not just for you Romy, but for all AND'ers!!

Most who have seen Hempfling or his videos make similar comments about how elegantly he uses body language.

So these are my questions:

Is his 'body language' the same concept as mimicry here at AND?

How does negative reinforcement/pressure/release affect the horses response to his body language??

What makes his body language work to get the response he wants??

What is the reinforcing consequence for the horse??

Thoughts?

Thanks in advance!

Brenda

_________________
http://www.youtube.com/user/Lucy04574

http://www.youtube.com/user/Jack04574


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 1:13 am 
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 4:10 am
Posts: 3688
Location: Pacific Northwest U.S.
Brenda wrote:
Romy wrote:
But back to Hempfling: I think that I can learn a lot about him, because he is so great at using his body language, which is my main training tool as well.


So, these questions is not just for you Romy, but for all AND'ers!!

Most who have seen Hempfling or his videos make similar comments about how elegantly he uses body language.


That's elegant as in graceful. I'm still unconvinced it is having the effect claimed at times. It's not that I'm claiming that it doesn't but that I simply don't see congruence sometimes between the claim and the horse's behavior as I understand horse motivations.

Brenda wrote:
So these are my questions:

Is his 'body language' the same concept as mimicry here at AND?



No even close. There might be accidental duplication by the horse, but it's inconsistent.

Brenda wrote:

How does negative reinforcement/pressure/release affect the horses response to his body language??



Mmm, as it always has. With submission or resistance by the horse. Sometimes the same horse exhibiting both behaviors under varying circumstances.

Brenda wrote:

What makes his body language work to get the response he wants??



It is highly refined pressure release work, thus worth studying, through likely dominance/submission in results.

Brenda wrote:

What is the reinforcing consequence for the horse??



Removal of pressure. In other words, negative reinforcement.

Brenda wrote:

Thoughts?



Having cultivated as much skill with pressure release in my career I cannot help but admire someone that is better at it than I was. He is.

Brenda wrote:

Thanks in advance!

Brenda


Good questions.

I have one.

How close are we to attacking another's method, and another person, as stated in our our AND posting rules?

Donald R.

_________________
Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 2:53 am 

Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2008 12:27 am
Posts: 8
Location: NW New Mexico
I would never attack his methods as they are quite elegant.

I think he uses his intensity (confrontational body language, staring into the eyes, etc.) as the pressure and then lowers the intensity for the release.

A lot of mustang trainers will tell you to never even look the newly capture animal in the eye as it is too much pressure.

Andrew McClean in his book Truth About Horses shows using looking away as a reinforcer.

I think Hempfling methods tap in, perhaps without intention, to EMDR techniques. Especially when he has his hands up and starts shifting the horses attention from one hand to the other.

Several of my horses, according to What Horses Reveal, should be untrainable. I have found that primary positive reinforcement gets around most of the issues that would otherwise be a dead end.

Yrs,
Patricia

_________________
========================

No training plan survives contact with a hinny.


Top
   
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 72 posts ]  Go to page Previous 1 2 3 4 5 Next

All times are UTC+01:00


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Limited Color scheme created with Colorize It.