The Art of Natural Dressage

http://www.smithbrothers.com/product.as ... D0523&qs=1
Free Head Horse Collar
Patented design has a fixed ring on each side for use with cross ties, as well as a center ring for lead rope. Offers ideal control for changing a halter or bridle. Colors: black, red, blue, green.


http://www.smithbrothers.com/product.as ... 05063&qs=1

Leather Free Head Horse Collar
Patented design has a fixed ring on each side for use with cross ties, as well as a center ring for lead rope. Offers ideal control for changing a halter or bridle. Dark brown.

http://www.statelinetack.com/itemdy00.asp?T1=SLT771024
This 2" wide collar features a buckle closure, and is perfect for horses who do not tie well with a halter; for exposing the head while grooming and for use while riding, eliminating the need to have a halter under the bridle.
Size: adjustable horse size.

This 2" wide collar features a buckle closure, and is perfect for horses who do not tie well with a halter; for exposing the head while grooming and for use while riding, eliminating the need to have a halter under the bridle.
Size: adjustable horse size.


These are similar to the spanish collars you see on Andalusians/Pure spanish Horse.

I don't think I would ever tie a horse with a collar tight around it's neck. If it was loose enough to slip out of, maybe....but a horse can do enough damage to itself with a halter on...this collar would constrict the horse's most vulnerable point on it's body....that throat area is where a predator bites to cut off a horse's wind. Can you imagine if a horse threw a wreck with something strapped around it's throat in this way?

With a regular halter, the poll can be damaged...but with one of these, the throat itself could be damaged. A horse could hang itself.

I suppose you could train them to be fairly reliable in one, but it's not something I would tie a horse with, then leave them at all.

Maybe someone could come up with a good reason to use one of these (?) I may not be thinking about all the possible applications....but at first glance, they give me shivers.

Last one (the biggest) is kind of collar we(not me) use in our country sometimes to horses that does not want to be tied up. Normal halters (nylon/leathers) break when horse is tied up on both sides with big chains. So they use collars with they use to bulls too. Collars doesnt break even the horse uses full bodyweight to jump down against it when chained up.

Yes, I know how horrible it is. Couple years ago horse died here in such 'training', broke hes neck.

Personally I do not see reason to use collars of anykind.

I suppose there are times when the surroundings might dictate fastening in some way, but for me it's like that age old question of teaching children not to run out in the road by spanking them.

When the are old enough to understand the dangers, they are ready to learn those reasons.

When they are too young to understand, then neither spanking, nor any other method will 'teach them,' to be safe around traffic.

Which leaves the parent a very logical way of dealing with the problem. DON'T LET GO OF THE CHILD NEAR TRAFFIC until he's old enough to teach the risks to.

I feel the same way about horses. If I cannot hold them in hand then I have no business having them near dangerous events and circumstances.

I do not tie horses. Ever. (Or if busibodies are watching, I make a fake knot. No part will close if the horse pulls, and in fact it will untie with pull pressure.

Having said that, however, this is a good time to bring up how to tie fast far more safely.

I worked with race horses. Nothing unusual to have $100,000 colt on the end of a lead rope. The saying was, "better a loose $100,000 horse than a $100,000 pile of dog food."

I can't remember if the lead came from this very forum, AND, or not, so I can't give proper credit, but when researching this issue I discovered the following, and it appears to be a very advanced design concept. If I ever do have to tie fast I will make it with one of these.

It is one of two I will mention. The first:

Designed by a farrier, wouldn't you know.

http://www.longridersgear.com/catalog/p ... cts_id=514

Even when they break they are safe, in that the broken line pays (slips) gradually out through a clutching cylinder of woven material that keeps it from snapping sudden loose, even if it breaks.

It can neither release the horse suddenly for him to fall, nor turn into a whip to take his or a bystander's eye out.

And it puts the horse back on his feet square, as the tension builds up beyond his capacity to resist.

It's basically a fat bungie cord in a cover. Like one end of a a pair of those old trick, woven "Chinese Finger Cuffs."

Only this will provide a controlled 'slip-out.'

http://www.kbrhorse.net/tra/safetie.html

This LOOKS horrendous, as the video shows a mare, who had developed the habit of pulling back and breaking the line, in middle of a full blown lunge back, and one can see, at the end, when it doesn't break, but does not hurt her either, that possibly she is learning something.

If you have to tie ...


The other item is the so called "Aussie Tie Ring," and has some merits, but some issues as well, I think. It too is based on a controlled slippage design idea.

http://www.blockerranch.com/product.php ... dsku=1&cat

And videos on how to use. It doesn't look like much, but I actually works wonderfully well, and is simple to use.

http://www.blockerranch.com/reference.php?cat=18

I wonder if changing the kind of line, size, material, flexibility, stiffness, might serious change the working characteristics of this Tie Ring?

But if you have to tie ...

When I was a kid the vaqueros used to just use the innertube method. It could occasionally, just as either of the above could, result in a horse down, but I don't recall any actually being hurt from going down.

The innertubes never broked and dumped them, so effectively, they simply lay down.

If you can keep from tying your horse, then don't do it.

I do not endorse any method above. If I must I train to tie. By positive operant conditioning.

Donald (who had to teach Dakota to tie fast though Donald hated doing it) Redux

_________________
Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.

You're absolutely right -- the kind of rope does make a huge difference in how the ring works. Smooth poly-type rope (like the Parelli lines) gives a far stronger hold than does the twisted rope (like many lunge lines), and on the strong setting is little different from being tied solid. Wide rope is a stronger hold than thin rope. Also, you really need at least 10-12 feet to use the ring, so that if they pull the rope doesn't come all the way through and the horse is loose, but using a longer rope causes the rope to lay on the ground (it's even worse when you use a lunge line) and so there's the possibility of the horse getting his foot in it.

I do like the tie ring a lot, and have used it for Caspian for some time now, and it has proved absolutely invaluable. He was a violent puller -- he could snap brand new lead ropes like they were nothing. Buying the Blocker tie ring was the best thing I ever did for his pulling, although there are both pros and cons to it.

The pros are listed on the website, mostly. It lets the rope out so that the horse doesn't feel trapped, and so it is far less constricting for them. That was huge for Caspian, and his pulling all but vanished with it. He learned to think about what he was doing because his mind was freed when his body was no longer trapped. Therefore, he has begun to learn "not to go there" with the pulling, and I don't know if he could've learned that without the ring.

The cons are definite, however. I don't feel comfortable leaving him alone tied, because he can pull out rope if he really wants, and I'd be afraid if I left he'd get a foot over it, or get twisted up, or something. There is also no good "middle ground" between a loose hold and a very strong hold. The strong hold will often, given the way it is tied, go back to a loose hold after a little bit.

I think there is another, similar, ring out there... but don't know what it's called... perhaps it's an improvement on the Blocker/Aussie ring?

On this subject -- how would you, then, teach a horse to tie? Especially, how do you teach the give to strong, sudden pressure? Meaning, I have done tons with Caspian with giving to pressure, but the problems come when pressure comes on hard and fast -- he gets scared when tied and hits the end of the rope -- he steps on his lead line and panics. When the sudden, hard pressure comes on, he'll often panic (once he stepped on a nylon lunge line and threw his head so hard that he snapped it clean in two like it was string).

Is the only way to teach a give to hard sudden pressure, the putting on of hard sudden pressure? I know it can't be, but it's tough, because to him, it seems like it's mentally an entirely different thing from soft pressure, so it seems that repeating the "give to soft pressure" exercises may definitely help, but they haven't seemed to really fix the issue. Not to hijack the thread (I can start a new one, if that's better), but I'd really, really appreciate any suggestions on this one.

The more exercises I've done to cause him to think, to be independent, to think his way through an obstacle or problem, the better it has gotten. But are there other ways out there?

_________________
"Do you give the horse his strength?"
~Job 39:19a

www.cambriahorsemanship.com

I don't think you've hichjacked. We are on topic.


As yet I can think of no new methods that are consistent with AND or my own methods.

I do know high line tie ups for training, but those are essentially unaccompanied events where the assumption is that the equipment is safe and the horse can fight it out and train himself over time.

I know it works wonderfully well, but, and this is a big BUT, he may NOT learn to think as a result, but simply surrender.

I know all about making horses surrender, and the dispirited results. So I have not use for those methods any longer. Just doing what I am doing with Dakota is dispiriting enough to ME, let alone him.

I do give him play tasks for solving, but nothing like AND members do with their horses, because I have no way of knowing or controlling who he'll be sold to.

No, you give the best description of all. Working with your horse so that he is encouraged to thing his way through.

I'm okay with Parelli's, 'close your hand slow, release quickly,' method.

That is, I set up a situation where I know the horse is likely to bolt, and when he does I let thAT LONG LONG line run, only slowly increasing drag.

The distance must be that which he moves back from the fearsome event far enough to be ready to stop and observe. I BEGIN BY CLICKING HIM JUST AS I SEE HE IS READY TO STOP.

In other words, just as he's feeling the urge or inclination to stop.

Treat of course.

Dakota was a fence breaker...jerked a huge heavey gate right out and drug it.

The first question I had for the owner was, 'how far did he drag it before he stopped.'

That told me the length of lead I needed.

I tested his resistance to versus give to pressure.

He would jerk back and bolt even with a moderate downward tug on the halter.

Poor guy had either never been taught to give to pressure, or the two year old event was still fresh in his mind.

So we worked at the same fence, with the same circumsgtances ... a long rope coming at him from the side (a truck hay load tie down had been thrown over the truck and came close to him).

He only used about 15 foot of the lead, because of course I already had done clicker work with him.

He was good with it until recently, when I changed position, so we've done a little more work on it.

But even when he pulled back and bolted this time from the opposite side of the fence, he stopped more quickly, and you could see him contemplating much more quickly. And of course I clicked and treated.

Donald

_________________
Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.

Gradual is the only way to do it in my mind. With treats. I have a topic somewhere, where I was discussing teaching Tamarack to accept more pressure and still stay composed and thinking. That topic was referring to more to mental pressure, but physical pressure BECOMES mental pressure. So really, it is the same. I don't think I actually wrote about "how to"...it was more of a philosophical topic. But in all cases, with Tam, food was the means by which he learned to be calm with anything that raises his emotions...from fly spray to an energetic request from me (not hitting him, but really asking for a lot of energy).

So you can simulate the pressure gradually. I would NOT do this all one session, but do it slowly over time. Light pressure first (which you have done) then I would put light pressure and increase the pressure to just below his threshold...you have to keep an eye on his reactions without directly staring at his face. With all things a horse may be fearful of, your body language has to remain relaxed and your gaze (which directs your energy) has to be turned away from the horse. Just turn your head enough that you can do little flicking glances to keep an eye on your horse, but do not stand there and just stare at him.

So back to the pressure. Hold the line and take up the slack until the line is straight. Then add some weight to it. Just a little. Click, release, reward. Do it again and again.


Next session, add more weight to the line, OR, take up the slack a little quicker. Not both at the same time. Only change one thing each session. Be quick to reward and slow to increase the prssure.

Over many sessions (your horse will tell you how fast this can go) you can get to the point where you can simulate him stepping on the line, or a sudden hard pull on the halter. BUT, you have to ensure that in now way will a hard pull hurt him in any way. This may mean you have to really pad the poll and nose area of the halter. It would break your horse's trust in you to cause him pain. You do not wish to desensitize him to pain...you want only to desensitize him to the action of the lead line.

Also, do not "snap" the rope. When your horse is ready, you can take the slack out, then quite quickly put ALL your weight on it. But is shouldn't be a snap...there should still be a flow to the movement. No one (not even people) can get used to a snap. But they can learn to brace themselves and accept a hard pull. Does that make sense? Never surprise the horse. Always make sure he knows what's coming.

But take your time. Better to do this more gradually than you need to, than to do it more quickly than you should.

As your horse learns to reamin calm, you can eliminate the padding if you choose...but only if you are certain that the training will not cause pain.

Once your horse is fine with bracing CALMLY against a hard pull, you then would go back and re-teach him an appropriate response (again, with patience and TONS of rewards) to a light pull. Then as a regular exercise you go back over these two distinct rope actions. Calmly brace (but not move the feet) against a hard pull, but softly respond to a light pull.

I am not saying this is how it should, necessarily be done. But just in visualizing this in my mind, this is how I would choose to approach it.

Thanks for the great reply! Yes, that is good... click when he's ready to stop. For some reason I hadn't really considered going to the clicker. But I can see how that would be very good in specifiying what response I want to the pressure.



That is so interesting!



Thanks, I'll look that up.



Absolutely! A snap, you can't prepare for. You get tense, waiting for it to come, versus being relaxed in the knowledge you can deal with it. That makes a lot of sense.

Just to make sure I know what you're saying (and thank you for writing this all out, it's fascinating!), you're saying to teach the horse to BRACE on a hard pull (much like a cow horse will keep the bull in place), but GIVE to a soft touch. They learn when to accept and absorb the pressure, and when to yield to it. Yes?

Also, when I thought about it more, I saw an excellent John Lyons DVD ("My Horse Pulls Back"), which simulated the anxiety of the horse when he pulls, not by increasing the pressure, but by increasing the horse's speed. Meaning, after the horse could give softly at the walk, he'd do it at the trot, then the canter, then the gallop. I may try that as well...

So exciting! All kinds of stuff to try!

_________________
"Do you give the horse his strength?"
~Job 39:19a

www.cambriahorsemanship.com

Yes! But the way I would do it, I'm pretty sure I would have to go back and re-teach giving to a soft touch, because I would start to teach the horse to brace to a soft touch, then an ever increasing pressure. So for a time, and depending on the horse, you may lose the nice response to a light touch.

I like that you get more than one idea to try, because you can examine the ideas and first try what YOU think will work best for your horse. You will know best...even if it's something you've never tried before.

Great, thanks!

About teaching the brace... is that done so that the horse learns to mentally accept pressure, versus being startled by the strong pressure?

Let's say the horse knows the brace and backs up (when tied) and hits the end of the rope -- would he brace on it or give? It seems like they would know the difference, but how, exactly? Thanks -- this is so interesting, and sometimes I have to sort things out and think them through here as I go.

_________________
"Do you give the horse his strength?"
~Job 39:19a

www.cambriahorsemanship.com

Hi,

I totally agree that if you know a horse has a history of pulling back, if possible don't tie - hold the horse, put him in a pen, etc. Even with a 'good' tier, they're happier at liberty if that can be arranged. I do like my horses to be tie trained of course, however I'll work around it rather than upset the apple cart.

When I'm working with a 'puller', I do the gradual build up thing too - I start with a light pressure and rapidly increase to the pressure level I'm training at (say 1 to 2 seconds to reach that level of pressure). I like the horse to give to that pressure (forwards, sideways, or back; whatever the direction the pressure is in) , rather than learning to 'sit' on it and brace himself, since I don't have a need for a horse to pull with his head at this point in time <G>.

For those of you that use a 'brace', how do you teach the horse to come forward again off of it (i.e. to differentiate between your need for him to brace, and his accidental startle and pull back)? With training a brace, I'd worry that a puller would sit back on the rope, then just stay there instead of giving and coming forward again...

_________________
Claire Vale
Kahurangi Equine Rescue
New Zealand

Hmmm....this went a bit far afield I think. When I used "brace," I was referring to the natural reaction of the horse to pressure...to push or pull against it.

I accept he will "brace." I want him, when that moment of startle comes, to do something else next.

The "brace" time duration reduction is my training goal. Until there is no perceptable brace at all.

I certainly poorly defined my terms and my method previously. I apologize to all, and find the responses wonderfully thought provoking and creative.

Something to use should the need arise in a training situation.

The training sequence, to clarify, begins with a hard lunge back at the pressure of feeling tied (he's not of course, I simulated it). The brace is long in space and long in time.

He's clicked as he comes to his stopping place ... hopefully just before it actually happens, and is rewarded. And I ask him to come to me for his reward, by the way.

This begins the concept for him of moving forward in response to pressure, though as yet he probably won't do it before the click.

Gradually we work toward him stopping, then moving foward. Then NOT STOPPING, but simply giving ... moving immediately forward.

I prefer it always be a soft moving forward, rather than jumping forward into my arms or lap, don't you see?

That transition from stopping then coming forward to simply coming forward to the pressure is a critical moment.

As I look at SAT and it's intermediate cuing methods new ideas about how to do this same training task come to mind. If I explore them I'll report them.

Dakota still needs work, as he has equine post traumatic stress disorder. Nothing quite like having a big heavy gate not only grab your head, but then follow you when you try to run away from it.

I need to gentle things down and go back closer to the beginning, if not the beginning itself, of my training regimen on this issue of not standing tied safely.

I'll be trailering him soon and of course do not want him going crazy in the trailer and hurting himself. Of course I could leave him at liberty in the trailer, but unless it's fully enclosed, no, I won't do that. He'll have to tie.

Donald Redux

_________________
Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.

Hi Donald,

Ahh, I get it. So it's the transition phase between hauling off backwards at a zillion miles an hour when the pressure goes on, and coming forwards again <G>. Definately a step up

_________________
Claire Vale

Kahurangi Equine Rescue

New Zealand