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 Post subject: Bareback pad
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 11:10 am 

Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 12:31 pm
Posts: 145
Location: Estonia
Hi!

I have a question about bareback bad. The thing is I am not very into saddles, so I do not like to use one. But as I red from this forum - it is not good to ride horse bareback because of our seatbones. So I was wondering is it ok to use bareback bad only and never saddle? Of course, right now I don't need any of these, because my horses haven't invited me to ride with them, but in future maybe...

Anneli


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 4:19 pm 
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Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 9:00 pm
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Location: Belgium/Tielt-Winge
I think the barebackpad as the same effect as nothing at all. I think that if you want to ride regularly you should better think about a saddle, there are so many differences in saddles, you will find one you like, but for that information I cannot help you.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 4:24 pm 
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It all depends on how long you ride, how well you ride and how much flesh there is on your buttocks and your horse's back :)

I think that if you put in enough of a buffer and do not make everyday rides of hours and hours the harm will not be very dramatic ;)

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 4:21 pm 

Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2008 3:35 am
Posts: 135
Location: U.S..A. Michigan
I am in the market for a saddle, but until I can afford the right thing I was looking at pads as an option. I would not be riding for more than maybe 20 min. at a time 3 times per week.
I saw these and wondered if anyone had an opinion? Do you think it would offer a little more protection then a plain pad? Anything you see that could be a concern?
http://www.longridersgear.comGo to the section bareback pads, and it is the Skito bareback pad.
Thanks,

Leah


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 4:31 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 7:51 pm
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Location: Netherlands
The most bareback pads seem like a piece of cloth that don't do that much else than keep you on board. 8) Weight distribution isn't really going to happen with those that I've seen.

However, I've ridden once on a woolley sheepskin barebackpad (Emiel Voest?) and that just sat like heaven, so soft! :shock: :D
I think it was a bit more shock-absorbant voor the horses' back too, but of course still less than a saddle.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 4:48 pm 
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Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 4:10 am
Posts: 3688
Location: Pacific Northwest U.S.
Mustang wrote:
I am in the market for a saddle, but until I can afford the right thing I was looking at pads as an option. I would not be riding for more than maybe 20 min. at a time 3 times per week.
I saw these and wondered if anyone had an opinion? Do you think it would offer a little more protection then a plain pad? Anything you see that could be a concern?
http://www.longridersgear.comGo to the section bareback pads, and it is the Skito bareback pad.
Thanks,

Leah


As I understand the argument so far against "bareback," it focuses on weight, not even a great deal of it, being concentrated on a very small area ... the buttocks with the seat bones obtruding into a relatively small area of the horse's back.

I think the logic is unassailable.

Even a small weight on my back, for instance, whether I carried it in normal standing human upright position (easier), or positioned horizontally as a horse is configured, it would become not only uncomfortable fairly quickly, but longer periods of time might well damage me.

Pads do not usually distribute the load over a large enough area to significantly
ease the burden to the horse.

While I admit this is a speculation on my part, and I have not seen any studies (but I'll bet they exist) it simply logical based on having tried for years to find a backpack that worked for me.

I eventually did, and it had the broadest possible area of weight distribution, with more being carried lower, given I am a vertical carrying human, and my hips could take the load of my best weight supporting area.

For the horse this is far more complicated because he uses his 'arms' as the major weight carrying portion, but not by much. His forehand and hindquarters together must do the job with considerable shifting of the bearing muscles and framework front to rear and back again.

Well made saddles take this into consideration. I'm not even totally sold (but strongly entertain the idea) of the treeless saddle as being best.

We might even find that with some horses and some riders, yes, there is enough inherent stiffness and padding that treeless works better, but in other horses and with other riders that a treed saddle might be less damaging and more comfortable for the horse.

I owned one western saddle for a time that, while very expensive, hurt every horse I put it on, and was not comfortable to me.

I considered selling it, thought better of it, and burned it, sharing a bottle of brandy with a few friends who had had to listen to my complaining about that saddle for much too long.

I bought a bare tree, western, semiquarter bars, and had a saddler friend build a level seat, only slightly padded on the bars saddle, with double in the skirt rigging, fenders/leathers hung back just a bit, that never hurt a horse or myself.

And wouldn't you know, after I quit riding and even working with horses that saddle was lost during forest fire that got my storage shed. All my tack was lost.

Why not wait and enjoy ground work until you can get a saddle, treed or treeless (though it would be nice to start with treeless if that's possible)?

It's difficult for me, as a long time rider, to get my mind around the concept of groundwork being of equal importance, value, and enjoyment, but it was the direction I was going when I left the horseworld, and I'm still on that track, as AND has proven to me.

Some days I don't ride at all, just play in the pasture, or in our training area.

If my feet were better I'd probably never ride again, but as it is I need a partner that is comfortable carrying me, and my wife absolutely refuses to. :wink:

Leah, give it more thought, would be my advice.

There is no hurry. Not even for me.

I have a challenge for the treeless folks building saddles. And that is the possibility of detached 'bars.' That is fully flexible side to side so they in effect flex with the horse's movement.

A horse moving straight and not in Levade, does not use both side at the same time.

One of the reasons for collection, I estimate, is to bring the two sides into action, though alternating, more closely in frequency.

But what if the saddle itself flexed under the human (who should be trained to move with it ... as is discussed here so often) and with the horse's action, yet maintained that wider area of weight distribution.

We have some very knowledgeable people on this issue posting to AND. I wonder what their thoughts are, and how far the technology has moved in this direction already.


Donald Redux - now

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 4:56 pm 

Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 4:54 pm
Posts: 176
Location: USA Michigan
Donald, excellent post. I will watch for replys regarding the treeless saddles.

Thanks,
Carrie

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Force no matter how well disguised begets resistance.
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 5:39 pm 

Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2008 3:35 am
Posts: 135
Location: U.S..A. Michigan
Donald, thank you for your reply. I only have a minute so I can't reply to everything you mentioned but I will say this. I realize over all I do not want to ride bareback for long periods. I mentioned this would only be for shorter rides. I don't know if anyone had a chance to look at the pad I mentioned but its claim is to provide a measure of protection to the horse. At least more so then a regular pad. Saddle's are a huge issue for me right now and I have been doing alot of research so I really value your comments Donald, it is certainly not a simple subject, but its one I would love to have more dissussion on.
I am going to include a link to saddlemaker David Genadeks site.http://www.aboutthehorse.comSome of you may recognize him from Dr. Deb Bennets site. I recently had the chance to have a two hr. phone converstaion with him and it was wonderful. He is really i believe on the cutting edge of saddle fit today. I invited him here, and I hope he will come. His wwebsite does not go into the detail of what research he is currently involved in, but maybe if more people call him directly we can get him to come over and share.
In the meantime, I understand that a pad however sophisticated is not a long term answer, but it is something that could maybe help for short rides (and be affordable ) in the meantime.

Thanks,
Leah


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 5:58 pm 
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Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2007 8:20 am
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Location: Dresden, Germany
I agree that a saddle is better than bareback in some significant aspects when you are riding regularly. But here we are talking about less than 20 minutes, 3 times a week here... I love my Barefoot saddle that I got last year (treeless, the first one that ever really fitted on Titum), but before I got it, I have been riding Titum with a bareback pad (+ extra blanket folded many times under the pad to make it more shock-absorbing) for seven years, before I stopped riding last summer. There has never been any (noticable) damage and also no unwillingness on Titum´s side when I put on the pad or climbed on him. Contrary, when I came with the saddle, he moved away each time. An expert had told me that the saddle fitted him perfectly and that it was only because we were not used to it, but then I decided that Titum would know best what is comfortable for him and what is not - and went back to riding with a pad. I am not trying to make excuses for any invisible damage that I may have caused with the pad and I am not trying to say that it´s always better than a saddle - only trying to relativize it a bit. Now my riding is reduced to maybe twice a month for five minutes, but if I still rode and didn´t have my wonderful Barefoot saddle now, I wouldn´t feel too bad about riding with a pad.

The problem I see with bareback pads is another: the stirrups. I would never ever ride again with a bareback pad with fixed stirrups. I have bought such a thing about ten years ago and the horse I had back than luckily didn´t tend to panic... because when we were cantering over a field and I put some more weight in one of the stirrups in a sharp turn, I was suddenly hanging at the horse´s side with the whole pad. There are other, safer bareback pads with stirrups and those pads have a bowed piece of metal above the withers to stabilize the pad. But I didn´t like the idea of concentrating so much weight to one little end of this metal when you put the weight into the stirrup on the opposite side. So what I have been doing (for the few times when I used stirrups at all) is connecting the stirrups only with each other and laying them over the pad, or actually over the lunging girth that I used for fixing the pad, because that girth was even more padded.

For the rest, I think if you want to ride and your horse agrees, it is much better for a relationship to do it than to force yourself not to ride because of "I should not...". Ask Kirsti. ;) I am not fond of riding, because we are having so much fun with our groundwork, but I wouldn´t expect that everyone else has to feel the same way. So if you want to ride and your horse is okay with that - then ride. :)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 5:57 pm 

Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2008 3:35 am
Posts: 135
Location: U.S..A. Michigan
I just wanted to add a quick update for anyone else who might be considering bareback pads. I recently spoke with David Genadek again and he was able to look at the Skito pad I was reffering to, and thought that (while he has not personally used this) it did seem like this pad would offer a measure of protection for the back over bareback.
And Romy, I totally agree with you I would not use stirrups on a bareback pad, to dangerous in my opinion, and it adds to much pressure to the back.

Leah


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 6:52 pm 
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Posts: 86
I also agree with Donald. A barebackpad does not distribute the weight of the rider. You will get 2 pressure points.

However, if you ride only 10min a day, I do not think it will harm the horse. If your seat is ok.

I would like to buy a decent barebackpad, but I have no idea which one. I was thinking of a sheep one. Like the one of Emiel Voest, but that is a bit expensive.

I would like to put the pad on when we are playing and practising. So I can have a very close contact with my horse. No pad is not very comfortable. His spine is sticking out a bit, and I do not have a JLo- bum. :cry: :wink:

I also have a treeless saddle: barefoot, type Cheyenne. That is a very nice saddle. Very souple. My horse likes that saddle. It does not distribute the weight like a saddle with tree, but a lot more than a pad.

You have to use it with a special pad designed for it, where you can put inlayers next to the spine.

You can practice your seat very well with this kind of saddle. But it is not made for people over 80kg and not for long trips either.

Who has a decent barebackpad? Where did you buy it?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 7:47 pm 
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Location: Pacific Northwest U.S.
Lanthano wrote:
I also agree with Donald. A barebackpad does not distribute the weight of the rider. You will get 2 pressure points.

However, if you ride only 10min a day, I do not think it will harm the horse. If your seat is ok.

I would like to buy a decent barebackpad, but I have no idea which one. I was thinking of a sheep one. Like the one of Emiel Voest, but that is a bit expensive.

I would like to put the pad on when we are playing and practising. So I can have a very close contact with my horse. No pad is not very comfortable. His spine is sticking out a bit, and I do not have a JLo- bum. :cry: :wink:

I also have a treeless saddle: barefoot, type Cheyenne. That is a very nice saddle. Very souple. My horse likes that saddle. It does not distribute the weight like a saddle with tree, but a lot more than a pad.

You have to use it with a special pad designed for it, where you can put inlayers next to the spine.

You can practice your seat very well with this kind of saddle. But it is not made for people over 80kg and not for long trips either.

Who has a decent barebackpad? Where did you buy it?


One day saddles will be fitted as dentures are, individually.

The horse and rider will come together, or be visited by the "Saddlist," who will place a protective sheet on the horse's back, and layer then a molding substance, upon which will be layed anotheprotective sheet, and upon which the rider will be carefully lowered, and even more carefully positioned.

On will have to remain very still, and I suspect, rather like dentures, more than one "impression" may be needed.

In fact that makes me think that each could be done separately but that might not give a true fit between them.

Carrying it a bit further, the horse impression could be used to make a "my-horse's-back," stand that would be covered with molding material, and the rider mount IT for the Bum impression.

We are only at the very beginning of fitting up the horse and rider.

Personally I'd like an anti-gravity device to take about half the rider's weight off the horse. :lol:

I've had ideas like this in the past, that someone else actually followed through on.

I had knee-rolls built in to the fenders of my Western saddle, the one I used to train with. Just copying jumping saddles.

I mentioned this before in "What tack?"

They turned up on cutting horse saddles. I don't know if any are still around in use, but they sure helped with those fast low swings of the horse's forehand.

I think my saddler might well have been the one to carry the idea into the cutting horse saddle construction.

We need to move way into the future with saddles. They are so, or can be, very destructive.

The molded form of the horse's back would have to be rendered into a flexible material that was cool and light. Science and industry may have everything right now to do this.

Someone simply needs the will (and funding) to carry it through.

Any takers? I claim .2% of gross, which doubtless will make me a millionaire.

:wink:

Donald Redux

_________________
Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 8:46 pm 

Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2008 3:35 am
Posts: 135
Location: U.S..A. Michigan
Hi Lanthano,

In an earlier post I listed a link to the Skito bareback pad. I was not interested in a typical bareback pad as I did not feel it was any better then bareback (for the horse that is) but when I saw this pad I wondered. The construction is such that it provides a channel for the horses spine.
The man I mentioned earlier(David G.) is a master saddle maker who has worked closely with Deb Bennet and others in understanding horse biomechanics. I hope he will be here soon to share in the forum. He agreed it did appear that the construction of this pad was better then most. Also, As you mentioned this is still for short rides only.

Sincerely,
Leah


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 12:17 am 
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Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2007 7:54 pm
Posts: 508
Location: the Netherlands
I do not ride much but when I ride I ride mostly bareback.....last time I used a tree saddle Timber was very panicing because she was used to me bareback and she did not understand my weight cues anymore :scratch:

And I feel saver without a saddle....Timber has such fine movements I can sit completely still (last time someone said I had ducktape on the back of my ridingpant because I sat so still in trot :lol: )

I notice Timber liking it more without a saddle because she feels the shift of my weight better I think. I do use a barebackpad (when I do not forget it :roll: ), a very expensive Emiel Voest barebackpad, not the sheep but the foam one.

I must say it is a great barebackpad....it will not distribute weight but because of the toch foam in it it does protect the back a little bit better.

I do have a treeless saddle but I barely use it :oops: altought I must say I ride about once a month :roll: and maybe even less......

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 3:51 am 

Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 4:54 pm
Posts: 176
Location: USA Michigan
The idea of taking an impression of the back is a great idea except that the back can change with or lack of exercise. I had my saddle re flocked every 6 months when I was schooling Merlin. The saddle fitter would come out to the barn. As the years went by, flocking would be taken away in some areas , more added in areas that previously didn't have alot of flocking.

Merlins shape changed as he developed a top line and then after his tendon injury, stall rest for 3 months, and another 3 months of light , very light turn out, I had to have the saddle re fitted again....to fit him after losing muscle and his topline.

I imagine they could get a better fit with an impression, done every 6 months or so....
They used a flexible curve when they would re flock Merlin's saddle.

Leah, I would like to know more about the bareback pad your looking into...I would like something for Merlin for very light riding.
Thanks
Carrie

_________________
Force no matter how well disguised begets resistance.

Lakota proverb


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