The Art of Natural Dressage

Has anyone found a "head peice" that really encourages a horse to bend laterally at the poll (Atlis and Axis) instead of swinging his neck like a gate?

Obviously rider/handler technique speaks a lot here, but I"m thinking about gear that might give clearer signals.

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Learning to put the relationship first.

If you are good with urging your horse up into it, an old worn out halter works as well as any new tech stuff.

In the end it IS the rider.

And I think there is a risk in using pressure directly from the hands in trying to open the poll at the Atlis and Axis to side, lateral, flexion.

But if you use the softly fixed hands technique, then ask with your cues that call for forward movement, the horse can chose to give softly and on a very short arc.

The danger?

Stiffen your neck, holding it still, and then tilt your right and left and see how it feels.

Now try it by extending your neck as far up as you can, and do it again with your neck soft. So it bends.

Feel the difference.

Feel that stiffness and discomfort just below your ears when you hold your neck in a rigid fashion.

And how your neck muscles, when you do this soft and bending the neck, stretch and you want to do it MORE it feel so good?

Funny, it does feel a bit uncomfortable the latter way, but still you want to do it again and harder.

But trying to tilt just your head, at your Atlis and Axis, the end of your spine where it joins the head, causes all kinds of distortions.

Pushing the horse forward against your very slightly fixed hands ... don't assume standard Dressage style ... gives him a change to develop his neck strength and get that nice tapered muscular shape, head to shoulders along the sides.

A smooth bend, that is a bit more nearer the poll and less and less as the base of the neck is approached.

I've done this with Dakota, and as little as I ride him, his neck has improved considerably. I think it's why he rolls back over his hocks so easily, even though I'm not asking for it, when he turns on the lunge line on the 'reverse,' cue.

But then, I might not be understanding what you are asking.

Donald Redux

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Love is Trust, trust is All
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So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.

Of course the real answer to that question is the hands of the rider and the exercises you let your horse do...

But I think you already know that. I'm not a big fan of using special tack to fix 'problems' of the horse, because most of the time these are a) physical problems of the horse, or b) really problems of the rider. When you have good hands and good knowledge of how to prepare a horse for riding and riding collected, then that hurdle is already taken, but then you still might have a horse who is physically not yet strong enough to bend and flex himself in the right way. Instead of punishing him for that with extra pressure (which is what every poll-flexing-stimulation device really does) I would rather supple him doing exercises in a positive way.

Of course many traditional and bitless bridles have nutcracker-pressure on jaw and poll that really are designed for forcing the horse to relax his poll - but you can ask yourself if you really want to punish your horse into doing something that he really should learn to enjoy (flexing the poll), something that you can also improve if you take another (but probably somewhat slower ) road. I know that there are a lot of traditional/NH trainers who will till you that it's not bad to use restricting tools/ropes/bridles because it gives the horse more clarity sooner about what you want so that he's not in doubt - but that argument is only valid in a training system where the horse knows that being in doubt means pressure and punishments. It's not a universal law that horses need clarity.

In clickertraining but also AND that limited physical guidance actually is a very important tool: free-shaping. Your horse is free to express himself and develop new ideas and movements and you reward for the great ones which come close to what you meant. Does a clickertrained horse want more tools, ropes and tack to 'help' him find the right answer? No, because he knows that there's no harm in exploring on his own and that it's actually quite fun to do too.


I guess that's the only real advice AND can give you on this. If you want advice on which tools you can use to speed up the process - next to a carrot - then you should probably go and ask that question on another forum/site that focuses more on tack to solve problems, because that's not really what AND is about.

AND is very much about encouraging the equine comunitiy to give up bits and use gentler techniques.

Some tack is more effective than other tack. I think this is a wonderful place to discuss more effective head ware since other forums will include bits and there fore havn't experimented as much with bitless.

I have never used a Dr Cooks but i cant see how they could encourage lateral bending near the pol- it seems a regular cavesson would work better. Cavessons need a degree of stability though, so many have metal in them and those that don't slide around. Make them too tight and the horse can't open his jaw.

I use a rope hackamore often but they seem to encourage swinging the neck like a gate. Yes good riding technique helps, but I am hoping to come up with something more effective.

Donald, I'm glad you brought up the steady hand because we don't talk much here about he seeking reflexes that encourgae a horse to reach to the 'bridle" (whatever that may be)

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Learning to put the relationship first.

Since the goal IS natural expression of the horse, I agree with Miriam in that free shaping is the ultimate method...but one can take it a step further and microshape.

I was experimenting with someone else's horse to see how soft the horse was in the halter, because of the way he's built he looks like he'd be stiff as a board. But oh, my goodness. He's as soft as Cisco. Just a hint of a lift on the line held in the same position as a rein and the horse would tip his nose. This was a regular flat halter. Cisco is the same way in the BB.

The key is on the ground...which you probably already know too, Danee. Without a rider.

But with or without a bridle, I think the lateral flexion you seek would come more naturally once the horse his carrying himself in balance.

If you can make it happen with a cavesson, because the pull or leverage is more toward the center of the face and not under the chin and the horse is not ready to balance in the corect way, the horse might overflex vertically in an evasive move.

If the horse has not found a good balance toward collection, can they even DO that lateral flexion without the rider physically manipulating ALL the movment and carriage of the horse? And if the horse IS ready for this minute lateral flexioning, would he not give that to you naturally through a relaxed poll (a relaxed mind, a relaxed body).

To me, that lateral flexion is one of the signs (like the ears bobbing) of a relaxed poll. One cannot really have one without the other, can you?

I am without experience on this - BUT I tested on my own nose...

The bit, the indian hack, the halter or sidepull and the cavesson (the vienna cavesson that would be - all leather - no iron). And the cavesson was a CLEAR winner....!

(But I do not yet have one myself...)

Indeed AND is about going bitless and bridleless, but I think the difference between AND and other bitless forums is that we don't necessarily search for effective means in the traditional sense of the word: to make the horse do something that he does not do right now.

That's because our philosophy behind the training is different: instead of seeing the horse as lacking in some aspects and patching that up with tools, we look for what's right already and work on that with rewards. The problem with bridles, especially with the 'special' or more effective ones, is that they don't deal in rewards, only in pressure - and the more effective ones deal in more and/or sharper pressure on the horse, while the rider has to work less hard to achieve that pressure. In traditional horse forums you can find a lot of info on them, as they are used by riders who are dealing with horses with for example tooth problems while still wanting to have the same amount of control and effect as they had with the bit.

There are a lot of bitless bridles that deal in athismore traditional punishment-based manner with flexion-problems, but they are really not what AND is about. AND is about encouraging bitless techniques, but we also realise that bitless isn't per se better - there are a lot of very harsh bitless bridles for sale just as well which do not agree with our philosophy at all. The recent thread on the mechanical hackamore might be interesting for you to read.

About the cavesson: they don't have to have a metal core: Bianca has one that's totally made of leather and is really content with it. I think she also has pictures of it over here somewhere, or maybe you can pm her for them if you're interested!

If, as you mention, Miriam, I can teach the lateral flexion I am looking for, less gatelike and more sweetly curved, with just a bit of out titled nose, from the ground, then that is my preferred method.

Since I know perfectly well any area on the horse can be isolated and 'trained,' then of course I know this can be done.

I also know that if it's done with minimum coersion, that is inviting the horse by asking, and too then it is AND.

In time we may have that encylopedia that answers many or hopefully near all these questions of what AND is in not just philosophy, but practice.

The next question that comes is, what is 'asking,' and how do we determine truly what a voluntary 'give,' really is?

Donald Redux

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Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.

WHen playing with soft feel and flexions on the ground, if the horse swings like a gate, I can use my hand in the middle of his neck to isolate the bend from the middle of his neck forward, which really encourages lateral flexion near the poll. From the saddle it isn't so easy.

I CAN get a horse to flex lateraly and vertically, but I aso teach, so If I can find a peice of equipment that speaks more clearly to the horse that can help the horses during hte thime it takes the riders to figure out how to do it correctly in any gear- or none at all.


I'm also playing around with ideas of some type of head gear that a horse can purposely push forwards into as he stretches forwards from the wither. I havn't come up with any designs that I love but I like the idea. Instead of yielding from the presure the horse would be pushing into it in a correct way. It is a little like AND meets German dressage if it is okay to say it that way.

I"m trying to come up with stuff that works but would not hurt or have any potential for abuse. Enough control to keep the rider safe, but in a comfortable way for the horse.


I know there are a much bigger selection of cavessons in Europe- we have very limited options here as most people longe in a snaffle briddle.

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Learning to put the relationship first.

I can not read all now, I am sorry, but I am curous to know why one would need such a piece?

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www.equusuniversalis.com

Now I see. I think you can very well use a cue for that too, it doesn't need to be a tool. If you teach a horse to bend correctly from the ground, then you don't have to limit the training to touching cues only. Why not use a voice cue like 'bend' for a correct bending to the left or right? You can then use that from the saddle too, even if the rider isn't giving 100% correct other cues for that bend.

The other benefit of using a cue instead of a tool, is that you horse can also not respond. Most of the time when the rider doesn't give the right cue for a movement, he in fact is actively blocking the horse from that correct movement - because he is pushing where he should give room, is sagging where he should become more light, or turns against the bend of the horse - really blocking muscle groups that the horse would need to do the exercise correct. You can then use a tool that still give the horse the right outline even when muscles in his back aren't working properly, but you can also use his wrong outline in the teaching process for the rider.

That really is such an important thing to learn for most riders, that the horse responds to them, so for me it can't come soon enough: if the horse inverts or swings his head like a gate during trot, then that should be a sign for the rider to go back to the walk where the horse didn't do this - and then study what he does differently with his body in trot - preferably with a good instructor from the ground. But the horse should be able to express himself.

About swinging the head like a gate from left to right instead of bending during groundwork: that's often caused by the wrong focus of the trainer. Instead of using the biomechanics of the horses' body to get the head to the right, they just squeeze/tickle/pull the right rein. But then it's quite logical that the horse also only responds with swinging the head to you instead of bending his neck towards you. Because your hand didn't ask for a body-bend, but just ordered the head to follow the pressure.

If you follow the biomechanics of a horizontal spined body (horse, cat, human on hands and knees ) you see that a neck plus head turning with the correct bend to the right, really starts from the rump: the ribcage moves out to the left in order to get the head to the right. The horse bends his entire spine away from you in order to bend his head towards you, like a big banana. So if you want to ask your horse to bend his head towards you in a correct way, you don't pull on the inside rein, but instead 'push' (well, more touch or tickle) where your inside leg would lie. Because with that you ask the ribs to curve out, which curves the head and neck in. It's got nothing to do with reins or leadropes. So if a horse swings his head towards the right instead of curling his neck to the right, I wouldn't look for the problem in the tack that's used, but instead for the origin of the problem: that the question was asked at the wrong bodypart.

Yes yes yes!

I've been doing most of Sunrise's riding training completely tackless, and she bends easily and softly at the poll from a request from my inside leg and a voice cue. When I ride her outside I do use a straight sidepull, which I can "pull" her around with, but it is not until I use the inside leg and direct her attention to what I want her to do with a voice cue that she softens and comes "to" me.

I also teach, and I've found it not very difficult to teach these things even to children.
The use of a target in the initial stages speeds things up enormously.
The progression can be taught to both horse and rider in one session, all going well and horse being flexible enough. Target on the ground, bend around to target as you stand by shoulder, add voice cue, walk a small circle and bend to touch target on cue, step over hindquarters from hand touch, add bend to target, step forequarters over, add bend to target, step sideways while bending head around, bend body away from hand cue without stepping while bending head to target. Then same on the horse, using leg cue, and a target on a stick for the first few tries. Then, if all has gone well, should be able to dispense with target and ask for bend with just leg cue and voice. stationary, then walking.

Or... you could throw all that out the window and just use Miriam's carrot tool. Lean down from horse, offer carrot.. horse flexes laterally.


A straight sidepull is my method of choice if head gear is neccessary, for the reasons Donald mentioned.

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I have not sought the horse of bits, bridles, saddles and shackles,
But the horse of the wind, the horse of freedom, the horse of the dream. [Robert Vavra]

I start to imagine some of the contraptions seen in the Nevzorov Encyclopedia dvd

Because I think you can't get past the fact, as Miriam has said, that the bend comes from the horse first pushing the ribcage out of the way. So regardless what you put on the horses' head, you would need the contraption to also push on the horse's neck as your hand does on the ground, and perhaps also to somehow lift the horse's inside shoulder, and to nudge gently on the horse's inside girth area. It might also have to provide some touch on the outside to keep the haunches from falling out.

Too many pulleys and ropes and little fiddly bits for me

Honestly, all it takes is two things. The horse is in balance, and the horse is relaxed (not just at the poll, but all over). Once the rider is balanced and relaxed, given that the horse is capable of being balanced and relaxed himself, and that the rider knows the correct aids and how to apply them, then the bend occurs as it should.

Danee, all you have to do is balance the rider, teach them where their balance should be, then lift slightly with the inside rein (and inside hip) rather than drawing it back (or leaning into the turn). Don't think of it as causing the horse to bend...think of it as "allowing" the bend to occur. You open the door, by opening the inside rein and the inside hip, and invite the horse to come around and through. If the invitation is pleasant...the horse will accept!

I get the same effective response from a little training exercise (that seems very related to what both Sue and Karen are discussing) that I think works because of some natural responses of the horse ... no forcing involved.

As I begin to ask for lateral flexion of the poll I begin with brushing the horse's side with my foot. Just the hair, if I can manage to be that light. Most horses will, if for no other reason that curiosity, slightly move their head toward the side I brushed.

I reward that.

Once that is established as a response when I ask, I then add moving the rein on that side outward with my hand, keeping the other rein OFF the horse's neck to avoid too many cues arriving at once...isolation, in other words, each part of what will become a single cue one day. (the neck rein).

My end goal is to have the horse, when I lay the OUTSIDE rein on their neck, not just turn, but to move their nose and neck in the direction of the turn. This without pulling.

It's a slower method than P/R which consists of putting the hand out, as the cue, then doing a pull and release to get compliance.

The former method is more AND based, in my mind, the latter, coercive.

Donald Redux

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Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.

Donald this is so similar to what I was doing last night with Cisco...and I think he loved that I was trying to isolate cues and ask them in sequence rather than two or three at one time. Perhaps this was why he was so relaxed and giving and trying so hard.

I would ask for the bend with a touch and release on the inside, THEN I would ask for the turn with my hips and then followed the hips with a touch and release on the outside (I am trying to only use my calf or knee for the turn) He was bending much easier...so easy that I was later cooling him down with only the cordeo and I never bothered to use the cordeo at all and he was making lovely circles.

When Cisco is happy, I am in heaven because the ride is so lovely. He was SOOOOOO responsive last night.

Or perhaps he is just relieved that I'm finally becoming conscious of what all my body parts are doing