yes you can find a link on his site
www.lipizzaners.nl

I think you are way ahead of that dvd Miriam!! It is meant for beginners, and there is more Ellen Ofstad (google her name, I can't remember her web-site) long raining than Pete. Ellen is the "clicker-trainer" for horses in the north. What I have seen of her (not much though) she is not "really" clickertraining, she is using a lot of negative reinforcement, pressure, as well. But she is probably the softest still... But since I had experience from clickertraining with digs I was not at all impressed (it has been done much more with dogs than horses in Norway with the clicker). (Don't misunderstand me, I am not a "pure" clicker-trainer either, but I searched for one who was good at the method with horses a while ago - well, now I have found YOU!!!).

And this thread was also very helpful for me right now, I am struggling also in what to do - especially with Vilja, and I always seem to fall back on long raining and that type of riding when I am in this moode...

And Romy I am very used to these terms from my dog-training, but it IS very hard to hang on in if you are not.... And I think I will join you in the total lack of rains.... (Not when outriding though - I feel a little safer if I have those rains in my hand then - attached to a noseband or BB ). And I have some trouble with the cordeo - but now I am realizing I am stealing the thread so i will stop...

And I would like to add this:

Contact rein has nothing to do with pressure!

When the horse walks into the rein, the contact is lost, just as it is lost when one loosens the reins.

Contact means 'follow the horse's head'. Like a dance.

However, if you simply follow, you will always be to late; 1. the horse will feel your hand and 2. then the contact will be lost. And that over and over. Confusing not to say irritating for your horse.

Or, while dancing, you will step on your dancing partners toes...

So; you will have to anticipate the movement.
You have to know what is coming. What will your partners next move be, so you can follow in time without any disturbance.

When you know that, then contact will be like a flow or an elastic-connection between the horses head and your elbows.
A constant ongoing contact so you can feel every bit of information from your horse. (Which is the reason for the contact rein).

That is what contact rein is supposed to be.

Different thus from 'pressure/release rein' which is used most (with the release being ignored a lot to be quite frank).

Josepha

But if the reins are only there to follow the horses head and keep 'contact' with the head for info, then what is the plus of using them? You could then also place your hands on both sides of the horse neck (or on the cordeo) and get your info from there?

Please explain, because I am yet again confused

Your confusion starts at a very logical point, so don't worry: it's the point where the opinions of all classical dressage trainers differ: how to use the reins.

One group (the oldest masters) (lets calle them group 1) says that you should ride with hanging reins (the bit only carrying the weight of the reins) because then your horse can truly learn to carry himself as you're not influencing him all the time.

Another group (2) says that hanging reins lead to a bumpy contact and that a steady following contact is more friendly (my guess is that Josepha is in this camp ) to the mouth/nose. The first group however opposes that your hands can never follow your horse's mouth perfectly and that you will therefore produce a lot of 'noise down the line' that you teach your horse to ignore, and that your hands are slow and will need a lot of training before they can release exactly at the right time. While hanging reins release all the time, only get shortened to cue or correct - and then they are always just following earlier leg/weight cues, and are really meant as a correction.

You can divide the contact-rein group into two again: one group (2A ) that says that you do have a contact with the rein, but that you can't do anything with the reins else but give subtle cues about direction and speed, and only after you've given the cues with seat and legs first. However, you are never allowed to use the reins to put the head in a certain position, as that is something that the horse should find out on his own accord, through exercises.

Group 2B however states that you can influence the horses head position with the reins directly (squeezing the reins untill the horse flexes in the poll for example) because if you don't, your horse will move in the wrong way and instead of giving him a long(er) time to find out the right posture on his own, they want to move him like that right from the start, as it's better for his body.

Groups 2B1 states that the goal is a contactrein that helps the horse to maintain the right head position, but that the horse is really only directed by the outside rein because only then the horse is really 'through his body': so the inner rein should always be a bit lighter than the outer, even hanging through a bit as the horse is only indirectly directed by the lengthening and shortening of the outer rein. An extreme of that school is for example the Belgian rider Antoine de Bod, who spends the first training sessions doing nothing but asking the horse to trot forwards through the arena with only a outer rein contact (sometimes with that hand pushed against the front of the saddle in order to not give to any pushing of the horse), and the horse looking to the outside of the arena all the time in order to straighten him.

Group 2B2 disagrees with that method as according to them the horse shouldn't be allowed to move when he is not straight. So they do straightening exercises with the reins in halt (Baucherists - up to Anky) untill the horses releases his tension, flexes at the poll and releases the bit, only then to ride with two contact reins forwards again.

Then 2B2-A (or actually 2B1-A ) Disagrees with 2B2 and says that relaxation can only come in movement and that suppling exercises in halt only teach the horse to escape the bit (also their comment on group 1 by the way). However, they also disagree with 2B1 because the horse should be supple on two reins, not just on the outside rein and that holding only one rein moves the bit in the wrong way and is confusing for the horse. Their solution: move the horse forwards against both the reins instead of one untill he flexes in the poll. So they place both hands against the front of the saddle and ride in a brisk trot untill the horse give to the bit.


Well...
That's a start. And then we haven't even discussed the height of the hands, which is an area of almost even more discussion!

I guess that everybody should pick & choose a method of their own. My choice is to not work with reins whenever possible, and if I have to (when driving on the road for example, when we do nothing dressage-like and just go forwards ), I have something between loose reins and a soft contact. And that is because with the carriage on the streets, even though I cue a lot with the whip, the reins act as a restriction when the ponies think ' but why turn left when the grass in front of us looks so tasty?' (a very annoying and common problem with Shetlands.. ).

Why do others use reins in the way they do? I know they all have their reasons, and even more reasons why not to do it in another way. I followed my own thoughts of what I felt was right - and now even don't agree with them anymore, so why tell others that my rein-handling was the only right one?

In the past when still long reining with a halter I chose not to use reins whenever possible to solve that problem for me. I followed the thought that the reins can only cue for exercises, directions and speed and that they shouldn't be used to place the head in a certain position or to force the horse to relax through direct actions of the bit. As I believe that true collection and relaxation only stem from a correct use of the back and hindquarters, I would also act like that and would not go and try to fix the problems over there by forcing, squeezing or playing with my hands to get the head in certain positions. That would only fix the symptoms, not the real problems. And if I did cue with the reins (too much still for my liking then), they were always preceded by voicecues (halt, trot, left, right, slow, faster etc., we had quite a vocabulary!) and my own bodylanguage - with the reins really hanging through untill I gave a cue with them.

And now we don't use reins to train anymore and really only work from back to front in order to get the right posture. And that feels even better.

Yes you could, that is the whole point!

But again, that is the concept of contact rein explained.

Not the general use of reins!

OK I understand a little bit better now.

Thanks both for your answers!

And Miriam::shock: I have got Shetland ponies either than!

... My Third Time reading this. A thread on the use of reins in Dressage.

Miriam, with her particular clarity and her deep knowledge of the subject by, obviously, both study and practice gives not just an explanation of what is taking place, but also helps to bring more understanding to the conflict between one school and another.

http://www.artofnaturaldressage.com/viewtopic.php?t=521&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

If you are new to AND, or if you want to explore as AND knowledgeable but seeking more understanding this thread will help.

I never tire of going over it for Miriam's diagramming what happens in certain movements (such as teaching shoulder in) and her explanations of how different schools of thought each actually perform according to their belief.

And those at the top of their profession in every field of horseman ship have this same exactness in their use of the artificial aides.

The exchanges with Josepha bring focus to the points being made, providing her expertise as well to the debate.

The questions are asked, those kinds so many of us have on this subject, and the answers are rich with possibilities as we make OUR choices from them, just as Miriam demonstrates she has done -- and apparently, continues to do.

Donald Redux

I want to go back to the historical element. Guillaum Cavendish, Duke of Newcastle writing in 1657 says "The bridle I confess is of some use, though but little; art avails much more, as all your excellent riders know; for I have managed a horse with a halter only and he went as well as with the bridle, of which I have so many witnesses in this city of Antwerp, who have seen the thing. I have also managed an English one with a scarf and made him curvet and vault very justly; so that it is not the bridle, but the art of the rider that renders the horse tractable."

What I find surprising is the way anti bit writing has been forgotten even in famous books. Black Beauty for example is anti bits, anti shoes, anti hunting, anti whips, anti blinker, anti cruppers and is only remembered for the weepy bits and being against bearing reins. For a more detailed rant go to http://naturaldriving.co.uk/content_beauty.php
I feel a bit of a fraud on here because I am not really into dressage, but I am into bridleless driving. For the ultimate bridleless driving skill read this excerpt from Smiles' Life of George and Robert Stephenson. "The horse drew the train along the level road until on reaching a descending gradient, down which the train ran by its own gravity, the animal was unharnessed, when wheeling round to the other end of the waggons, to which a "dandy cart" was attached, its bottom being only a few inches from the rail, and bringing its step into unison with the speed of the train, he leaped nimbly into his place in the hind car, which was suitably fitted with a well-filled hay rack.

That is real skill.

A few of us have also been (or learning) long reining with a cordeo. It's as cool as riding with a cordeo, really. Quite a thrill to get the communication going well enough to discard any head gear at all.

If I were lucky enough to get one of your chariots, the first thing I would do is to try it with a cordeo

I was doing a demo near Manchester at a riding establishment, and because I wanted to get Henry round to a position to use the starter cord on the mower attachment, I just vaguely wave my hand and he ambles around till he is in the right position. All the "horsey" types kept asking how I could do this with no bit, but I kept pointing out that Henry can see my hand move, works out I probably want to get the mower started and moves round until I relax when he stops. It is the way horses were "trained to count" for circus acts. If you ask a horse what is 4 times 3 and teach it to tap the ground with its foot till it reaches the right number, the horse learns that when the person tenses, it has reached the answer, or more to the point when the person tenses, stop.
So working training and dressage are both using the same systems, and at the end of the day we want the same thing, a specific activity for a specific command, it is only our activities that differ. An animal that can be trained to jump onto the back of a moving train, can be trained to do anything.
But working training gives something for our little short legged friends. Henry doesn't do floaty stuff, but he can do 360 degree spins in the air while bucking and still land at a gallop. And to me, he is beautiful.
I love what you guys are doing. Holding an animal in an outline, is just bondage, but maybe you have a way for me to take Henry forward and teach him new disciplines. Driving bridleless is my dream, but I was planning to cheat and train my dog to herd my pony.
Simon

I am about to go to the other computer and look at the photos, etc. (finally!), but from your avatar, I think Henry is beautiful and fit and I think he would indeed float. He's a wonderfully built little horse!

He spends half his life practicing "cute"
but we do all have fun

Thank you all for this thread - very interesting and full of learning for me...

Hi Miriam - I come here sometimes, it's really a pleasure to read your artiposts (articles/posts).

I'd like to translate it in Italian and to add it to the "Translations" topic here. Nevertheless, I encouraged another Italian, English speaking woman, interested into classical riding, to come here and take a look... she did, and enjoied my suggestion! I hope she will translate and post here her translation. I know that "quis scribit, bis legit", who writes, reads twice, and that translating connects with the author's mind much more that reading.