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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 4:42 pm 
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Quote:
In the meantime, the 3d deserves anothe mention to ancient Italian High School before Pluvinel, there are two interesting chapters into Il cavallarizzo by Claudio Corte (1562):


Quote:
Chapter 63 deals with bitless riding, Chapter 64 with dressage at liberty...


Oh, wow, wow, wow!

Gee, Alex, I sure wish I could be helpful..my modern Italian is horrible, 16th C waaaay beyond me...but I'm willing to supply cheers and moral support and good voodoo if that will help you plow through it!

:yes:

:clap:

;)

Leigh

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 5:52 pm 
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Alex wrote:
Thanks Glen for feedback. And thanks Miriam for your header post! As soon as I can, I'll add a translation of it into "Italian translations" topic here.
In the meantime, the 3d deserves anothe mention to ancient Italian High School before Pluvinel, there are two interesting chapters into Il cavallarizzo by Claudio Corte (1562):

Book II, Chapter 63 (http://it.wikisource.org/wiki/Il_cavall ... apitolo_64 ):
Quote:
Cap. 63. Del modo di maneggiar il cavallo senza aiuto di redine, & senza barbazzale.
Ogni fiata, che havrete ridutto il cavallo à tanta giustezza & obbedienza, che benissimo vi corrisponde à tutti gl’aiuti, & maneggi con quella gratia, prestezza, & agevolezza, che se gli richiede, facil cosa vi feci ridurlo al raddoppiare terra terra, à mezz’aere, & forse anco alto co’ calci, senza aiuto di barbazzale, e di redine, a i repeloni: & anco al correre d’una e di piu determinate carriere, lo potrete parare senza barbazzali sì, ma non forse senz’aiuto di redine: se non fosse il cavallo per aventura di schiatta, e razza numida, & misilea, & che sì buon ammaestramento havesse havuto, che al sol cenno, non che con la verga lo poteste rattenere, & governare.


Book II, Chapter 64:
(http://it.wikisource.org/wiki/Il_cavall ... apitolo_64 ):
Quote:
Cap 64. Del modo d'insegnare al cavallo il corvettare, & il maneggiar da per se alla terra.
Ancor che questo paia impossibile è però vero; & io ho visto ginetti maneggiar in questo modo da se stessi, senz’huomo à cavallo.....


Someone of you can help me to translate this into a decent English? Chapter 63 deals with bitless riding, Chapter 64 with dressage at liberty... :ieks:



Just for fun I ran the Italian through an on line translation service, Yahoo Babel Fish in fact.

Usually it's pretty fair with most languages but I have a hunch both the genre of horse terminology and the1562 dated nature of the Italian being used defeated it most humorously. Here is how Babel Fish translated the first paragraph quotes above:

"CAP. 63. Of the way to handle the horse without redine aid, & without barbazzale. Every breathes, than havrete ridutto the horse to much giustezza & obedience, than corresponds very well you to all gl'aiuti, & handlings with that gratia, prestezza, & agevolezza, than if it demands to it, facil what I made ridurlo to doubling earth you earth, to half aere, & anco perhaps high co' soccer, without aid of barbazzale, and redine, to the repeloni: & anco to running of and more determined careers you will be able to adorn, it without barbazzali yes, but not perhaps senz'aiuto of redine: if it were not the horse for aventura of schiatta, and race numida, & misilea, & that yes good training havesse havuto, than to sol the signal, not that with you could rattenere it to the verga, & to govern."

Sadly modern equivalents of equine terms apparently aren't within the capacity of Babel Fish. I think your request that someone fluent in Italian and able to translate to English is a good idea. However, I have another idea.

Alex, I think your own attempt to translate would be, given your current command of English, quite understandable. I don't think many here would have trouble understanding what you say and mean.

An afterthought: I believe that more ancient terms, no matter what subject, over time, develop more meanings than the original at it's time of common use.

And automatic translation (and some human being ones as well) might, if they do not understand the subject, pick the wrong word from a list of modern meanings of a single ancient word.

If we look at slang, for instance, colloquialisms, it becomes quickly apparent. 'Cool' for instance, used to mean of lower temperature, and that was all it meant. Now 'Cool' has two meanings at least beyond that, and in only a decade of time to change into these two.

One 'Cool' now means that something is good.

The other 'Cool' means that someone feels distant and uninterested.

That could make any translation from English, three hundred or four hundred years from now, to another language, likely laughable or unintelligible. Or both.

Unless one knows the context and the subject translation is very hard work and often wrong.

I'm a dunce in three languages, one of which I speak and write as my native language. And I still mess up badly, often. In all three.

But somehow I'm usually understood. Go ahead, give it a try.

I would love to know what is in a book on dressage from the 1500's.

Best wishes, Donald

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 11:23 pm 

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When I used Babelfish to translate modern English "hipperian" (as you pehaps realize, horse-related language is a highly specialized, aliene language ...) into Italian, i.e. the text of the simple, plain website of Marjorie Smith, I had almost killed by laughing... :funny: ... you can't imagine how Babel translated "founder", "coffin bone", "flaring" and so on; and the whole talk was incredibly amazing.

About Italian Reinassance High School, I had a much bolder idea; I sent an email to one of the most reputated Italian experts, introducing AND forum and encouraging it to take a look and - if he has a little bit of time - to give some contribution. He contibutes with the patience of a saint into a general Italian horse related forum, and I guess that any his contribution here would be much more appreciated! Please understand me if I don't mention here his name so far, but I'll send it to Josepha.

I asked him too some good link to existing English sources about this topic. Some months ago, he mentioned an ancient English translation of Corte's book too...

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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 4:15 pm 
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This is so interesting, I can't wait to read a translation of those chapters!

It's such a coincidence that you mention this work by Corte, because exactly a year ago a handwritten 17th century manuscript in which Corte was translated in German was put up for auction in a Dutch auction house. I did leaf it through when I was there, but didn't buy it as it was very expensive and I bought two other books already. If I had known then what I read here now... :roll:

This is the description of the book by the auction house:

Quote:
Corte, C. "Bereitkunst. Claudij Corte von Pavia. Warinnen gehandelt wirdt von Natur unndt Eigenschaft der Pfert von der Roßzucht unndt wie man die Roß aufmancherleij weise abrichten, zämen und dümmeln solle (...)." MANUSCRIPT, 17th cent., pen and brown ink, (4 blank),182[incl. 7 blank],(8 blank)lvs., nearly all recto and verso, 4 full-p. and 1 half-p. diagrams in brown and ochre watercolour, contemp. vellum, folio.
- First and last few lvs. (mainly blanks) sm. wormholes in inner blank margin; sm. owner's(?) stamp "G.W.B.D." on title. Binding sl. stained, wormholed, sl. warped and lacking ties.
= German translation of C. CORTE, Il Cavalerizzo, first published in Italian in 1562 (not in Mennessier de la Lance). An English translation by Thomas Bedingfield was published in 1584 (Mellon 11), but as far as we could trace no German translation of this influential Italian treatise on horsemanship has been published.

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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2009 8:10 am 

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Sorry, Alex! - had computer trouble etc etc etc -now if I can find that translation again, I'll finally get it on here!
:blush: Rita

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 8:24 am 
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So, how is it going Alex? :)

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 6:34 pm 

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This is such an interesting thread with such a lot of well-written und very profound posts - :applause: I am almost speachless (am new on this forum - at least as active member, though I have been sooping a lot s guest every now and then) and I dont know how to find time enough to read all this - OMG :ieks: I need longer days!!!

The last couple of months I have also become rather addicted to Hempflings weekly collumn on his Facebook page (which are equally interesting and very, very long, giving lots of food for thought!)- there he is at present explaining the historical development of the use of bits and reins. He has in that connection shortly been around some of the old masters and his view of Baucher is quite different from the one originally explained in this thread... he states that Baucher was actually the founder of LDR/Rollkur in its original manifestation and that his method had a fatal influence on all equitation of today - actually that the correct use of the bit has been vastly forgotten even in all riding styles and that for instance the Iberian riding style used to be based upon weight and leg aids, but now employ the constant contact reins equally severely to the English dressage for instance. He even states that it has come all that far as to the Baroque Riding style - and he says it is because of the methon introduced by Baucher. Has anyone here ever read the works of Baucher? I think it is quite interesting because he does seem to have had a very big influence.

When talking about aids I think every aid can be misused, there are just some which are effecting more sensitive parts than others and therefore more easily create pressure - like the bit for example. Also a cordeo can be used wrongly and then cause the horse stress and pain. In the same way, when a bit is used for what it was meant for, namely as a sort of final polish of the form by the highly educated horse, then even that can be allright. But I guess there are few horses which are really ready to wear a bit, and of course that perfection of the form which it will provide might also not really be necessary. And when the whole education of the horse is supposed to be done without bit and bridle, then I guess there is not real need to start using it.

I just realized that I am sitting here writing in a thread that seems to be dead since years :blush: :funny: but I will post it anyway - now it is all written :D


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 6:46 pm 
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Indeed a cordeo can be misused, as can be a bitless bridle. But the effect a tack item has makes degree of how that misuse effects the horse... a question people comtemplate a lot about on which I wrote:

http://www.equihof.be/josepha/index.php ... Itemid=101

:D more reading... sorry :alien:

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:06 pm 

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Thank you Josepha :kiss:
I think I am going to have to ask for a few weeks vacation :green:


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