The Art of Natural Dressage

Josepha, perhaps you can answer this for me?

I like the idea of a treeless saddle, but for Cisco with his back issues, I just don't think I can or should use a treeless saddle with him, as I feel it's best to have my weight distributed over a wider area of his back. For this reason, I rarely sit on him bareback.

But I was wondering about the Portuguese or Vaquera saddles that you sell. I had found some on the internet (Zaldi), but they only come in an 18 inch seat and there is no mention at all of how they fit a horse.

I know the Vaquera saddles are stuffed with straw. Do they have any tree at all? And what about the Portuguese saddle? Any tree? Are they stuffed wtih straw as well?

I was wondering if a straw stuffed saddle may be a good compromise for Cisco. I don't ride for long when I do ride...20 minutes maybe at the most.

I am interested in these saddles also because they have a flatter seat and don't appear to be so built up in the front - thus allowing you to find the good balance point yourself, rather than being pushed back as a dressage saddle with it's built up front area would do to the rider.

Can you tell me about these saddles please? Does anyone else have any experience with them?

I understand that they may not last al long as a treed saddle, but this is not a real issue for me.

Dear Karen,

Since it takes time to anwer this (I have a passion for saddles), I shall do it tomorrow if you do not mind.

I am so tired and I think I shall retire for the evening.

warmest regards,

Josepha

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Hi Karen,

First of all about the treeless saddle.
I did not like them for a long time... untill I came across the Barefoot saddles.
Sabine, a physiotherapist from Germany has designed these saddles especially for horses who have damaged backs or who symply never fit a normal (english) saddle.
For my horse Owen the whole saddle ordeal came to an end with the Barefoot London, for him finally a saddle that does not hurt his rather 'bull like' back and for me a saddle that offers me enough comfort for he classical seat and enough feel for the natural movement.
If there is someone in you neighbourhood who has such a saddle for you to try out for a week (that is how we work) then I suggest you try it.
Keep in my mind that you need the special physiopad underneeth and that you make sure you have the right pommel size for it to be a succes.

About the vaquera saddle.
Most vaquera saddles are to long for the horse for starters.
So I would suggest a vaquera mixta in a short version if available.
Keep in mind that it takes at least 2 years for the saddle to take shape and form and become comfortable for you as well as your horse.
You feel far away from your horse when your are accustemed to bareback or english dressage saddle even.

I know what you mean with the pommel in front... a saddle needs to be rather flat and level.
Especially thoses german 'deep seat' saddles are a menace to horse and rider. And mostly they do not fit, for al lot of people squeeze a size 28 chamber on a broad warmblood who at least needs chamber 32...

But people tend not to notice... they rather fight against gravity all the time it seems and damage their horse and their own lower back....

anyway, these are one of the important teachings the old master taught us, the level saddle, the seat etc.
But which I was burned down for mentioning, for some reason in the NHE forum. I still find that very strange. But hey, nevermind that now.

If you have anymore questions, please ask!

Warm regards,

Josepha

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oh, I forgot, the vaquera saddles have a straw tree, the portugues saddles have a wooden tree and I do not recomend the latter to be quite honest.
They are very heavy and massive, a lot like westernsaddles and the rider can not move around in them.

Ralph and I are currently developing a spanish treeless saddle, but I only have the prototype yet and it'll take a while for it is finished and then it'll take a lot of investment again...

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Thank you Josepha!

I had read in one of Hemplfing's books, "Dancing with Horses", I think, that the Vaquera saddle takes a long time to break in. I think he says that by the time it no longer looks nice, it is at it's best...so some people tend to replace them too soon if they are more interested in looks than comfort.

I believe I CAN get a barefoot London to try out. I will check it out. What would be nice about it is that it may fit both Cisco and eventually Tamrack.

I had also wondered about the Phoenix too, but haven't found a distributor here. I may look again though.

Oh, it would be SO nice if you manage to develop this new saddle!

Ever so Welcome

Klaus is absolutely right!
And he too uses a mixta.

The Fhoenix does not fit so well for broad round horses with no withers. I do not know if that is the case?
I have one here.. I could send it out to you for testing, but that will probably be a costly operation....

Let me know if I can be of service in any way

Josepha

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Josepha, you do INDEED know saddles!

I am presently using a Tucker Endurance Equitation. It fits Cisco well, but in constantly fighting to be in a more correct position, yes, my lower back suffers a lot.

If I sit back where the saddle puts me, my back feels better, but I am behind Cisco's balance point, so not very good for Cisco.

My Tucker also keeps my feet too far forward, so I also have to fight against that too.

Thank you for your opinion on the Phoenix. Perhaps I won't try so hard to find one to try. I think Tamarack's back will remain quite broad. It would be nice to find a saddle that would work for both horses, but for now, the important thing is that I find the best choice for both Cisco and myself. Cisco first of course, but somthing where I am not struggling to hold the right place. Tamarack will likely need a very different type of saddle...so perhaps I can find a Mixta.

I hope to go to an Andalusian event this summer. I'm hoping there will be some saddles there to purchase.


I will try to find a Barefoot London to try!

Hi Josepha and Karen,
this is a very interesting discussion to me, because I have been thinking of buying a new saddle. And it is really hard to decide which one is best for you and your horse! I have never considered Barefoot-Saddles so far, but I might now. I have been using a Wintec dressage saddle, because it is light (at least not as heavy as leather saddles) and because it was short enough for my horse's back. I did not like it too much from the very beginning because of its deep seat. But since it was the saddle it fitted my horse best I decided to deal with it.
I kept an eye on a Branderup-saddle, I think "Epona" is the correct name. You have very close contact to the horse with this saddle but it does not support the rider at all - if you know what I mean. My horse Daiquiri has a very difficult trot - it is difficult to sit calmly and balanced because it is so (hmm, groping for words again - oh God, my English!) ... it is so big and extensive?!?! His back is swinging a lot in trot - can you imagine what I mean??? What do you think - should I test a Barefoot? Maybe, a photo of my horse would help...
Thanks for your advice!
Stefanie

A barefoot london does give more support in my experience

First trot very slowly untill you get the 'feel' of following the movement and perhaps find excersize to loosen your hips, like dancing

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I am also doing my research about saddles and my hoof trimmer has just put me onto the Mackinder saddle. I am very impressed with what I see on the website, even though it is an endurance saddle. It seems extremely well thought out for both the fit for the horse and the correct seat of the rider.

http://www.mackinderendurance.com/products.htm

What do you think?

Hey..(I should say HI.. must get around to introducing myself )

I'm going to be in the market for a saddle for a short backed, round bellied, low withered, horse one day. Have used Barefoots, but not the dressage. Liked the Freeform saddles for their comfort and greater degree of weight distribution.. but less contact. So difficult to decide.

BUT.. I have to HIGHLY recommend my Christs Horsedream Merino bareback pad!
The shape is just perfect for sitting absolutely correctly, nice and deep and comfortable around your horse. The girth is actually in the right place and so are the stirrup attachments.
It's shaped to fit withers, and has a cantle in the back which helps to support your seat. I use it with a high quality therapeutic pad underneath to help weight distribution. I have cut and shaped an "inner" from special foam, which I slide inside the two layers of sheepskin for use on horses with a backbone..
It is a dream! Definitely much better for the horse than bareback. But with awesome contact, and stickability.
Wild applause.
Sue

Looks like a really good concept.
Two things concern me though.
First, I can not see if the vertebrae is free underneeth the saddle.
Second, in the picture the saddle lies to much to the front.
It lies on the withers and to close to the shoulder.
I also wonder... is the breastcollar to keep the saddle in place?

difficult to deside from a picture...

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Thanks Josepha, for pointing that out.

I have been wondering about the breastcollar myself and didn't know about the vertabrae.

I might investigate a little bit more. I don't know anyone who has one of these saddles yet, but maybe my hoof trimmer will tell me more, when he gets one.

Josepha,
another question from me: I am still testing saddles "like mad" - all different types I can get a hold of. I tried a treeless saddle, a Torsion, which was terrible!!! My horse seemed to be twice as broad, I could hardly get my legs around him, hardly any contact to the horse's body - never ever again!
I also tried different dressage saddles with trees (two had a so-called "steelspring tree" - I hope I translated it correctly, they are much more flexible than wooden trees. A friend of mine explained to me that many saddles have wooden trees nowadays to "protect" the horse's back from the rider's movements - "steelspring trees" make you feel the horse's movements much better but if you do not have a balanced seat your horse will feel your movements also much better... for better or for worse... ).
I tried a Roesli (Swiss saddle) which was o.k. for Daiquiri but too big for me. I tried a Cobra which seemed to be fantastic for Daiquiri but was only, well, sort of o.k. for me. It is heavy and "a lot of saddle" - too much for me if you know what I mean. Yesterday, I tried a Wintec (same model like I used to have the past two years, airfilled cushions, just the seat a size bigger). Daiquiri walked two steps and than stopped, turned, circled and stopped... Well, I am not sure whether the saddle was the only reason because he has been having some sort of problem the past weeks. And my osteopath doe NOT believe the saddle is the problem (it may worsen the symptoms, though, I think!!). Today, I will try a County. I love the older County saddles (with steelsprings) - the new ones have wooden trees (for the above mentioned reason ) and they are not half as good as the older ones...
Since I am a quite "conservative" person when it comes to the way a saddle should look AND feel, I prefer the classical dressage form. I came across a treeless saddle: Trekker Master. It seems to be a quite new Trekker product. Have you ever heard of the saddle? What do you think of it? On their website they offer to let you test the saddle for 7 days... I am not sure... What happens to a treeless saddle like this after two years of using it? I do not want to end up sitting on Daiquiri's spines without knowing it...
Thank you for your advice regarding his trot But - my hips are already "dancing wildly" when I try to sit in trot, you have to be EXTREMELY flexible in order not to fall down or hurt his back. I have asked a friend of mine who is a really experienced rider and has an awesome seat to try and ride my horse... I thought by myself if she can do it, it is ONLY my problem. She stopped after a minute and said " It is impossible to sit this trot". She looked desastrous while trying . Well, I think, it is a mixture of: Extreme movement of the horse, the saddle - and the WAY he is trotting. I am afraid he is still not using his belly muscles the right way and still not stretching the back muscles enough. It LOOKS o.k. and nice, but it is not "real" - you know what I mean?
Stefanie

i am riding from the beginning i started to train my horse with a barfoot cheyenne. A lovley saddle, but the standard grandeur pad i do not like it. It become very hard after a short time, so i have chanced it by a HAF pad and now it goes better.
But i hear a lot of people say that they are sitting to wide on their horse. I have never think about that, it was the same as without a saddle. You need to be relaxed and "elastic in your hips" (how do you say that?)to bring your legs more to your horse.
But now i have found someting. A hipsaver, you remove the original seat and put this at your saddle.
It give a less wide feeling and sits very soft. It is made by Heather Moffet, she same of the Fhoenix.
Now i like my saddle more than ever, for a long trail.
I have put it on some other saddles by my friends and they like it too, they said that it is a good idea for those who do not like it to have a wide seat.

I had choosen for this saddle because i started to train my horse, he was at that time tooooo fat en need to have a good dieet. And afther that when he was more a horse than a walking grassmonster i started to train him. All those things give big changes in body shape, so if you choose a treesaddle you have to change it a few times, and before it hurts the horse. And you never see such things before, mostly you are to late.
I do not have that kind of money, so i started to look what i wanted and could pay
then i saw the barefoot and it was for us the perfect saddle for now, i do not know what the future gives