The Art of Natural Dressage

Glen:

I do both body work(really energy work) on horses & their human companions as well as being a saddle fit consultant for many years now. Many of my clients choose to ride treeless, with bareback pads or with nothing on the horses back depending on the individual needs. Some also used treed saddles to ride in because it suits their individual situation.

Some things I have observed over the years, is that the horses with very thin coats/thin skin sometimes prefer to have some sort of interface between themselves & the rider. Also if the horse does not yet have enough muscling/skill to carry a rider properly slick bareback can sometimes be more uncomfortable than a well-fitting & well padded saddle. If they also have a prominent spine, long whithers, higher whithers with not so much muscling behind in the area the rider sits, a wide spine or have an "A" frame back, the preference seems to be a little more padding between human seat bones/pubic rami . A lot depends on how the rider's seat bones are in their body (ie how padded or bony, how far apart they are in relation to the horse's spine width etc) & how they either consciously or un-consciously use them & of course how long the ride is. Many of the broad backed native ponies/draft x types seem to do just fine au naturelle if their riders can handle the width. Again a rider that has discomfort in their body is stiffer & coveys this discomfort into their horse. Some horses handle this better than others.

When we are moved by the horses walk rhythm our seat bones(hips) are moved in an either back-ward pedaling motion or forward pedaling motion mimicing the horses rear leg movement. Sit yourself down on a solid chair seat with minimal padding & try to re-create
this movement in your body. Then place both hands
palm side up under your seat bones doing the same movement. This will give you an idea of what the horse feels at the walk.

Good point about a surcingle & cloth. There will be more pressure localized where the surcingle is tightened & most surcingles I have seen have very hard parts that I would not put on a horse w/o well-cushioned under padding.

Some other options if your horse seems to not settle in to the new feel..and sometimes it is just that, would be a high whither contour bareback pad with girth changed to dressage billet over a Skito Equalizer 3/4" foam pad /a Grandeur Pad under, or Mattes insert pad. You need to determine whether the horse needs cushioning from the seat bones, how much depth/width to the spine channel) which is formed from the under pad) or if there is something else at play here to determine what your padding choices will be.



Key for BB Pad to work is switching the non-elastic standard BB Pad girth to dressage billets. This will allow for either a central or double elastic girth to give the horse more comfort in breathing & movement in general. Also provides more lateral stability for the rider. An unstable rider can be very annoying for the horse & create just as many issues structurally for the horse as an inappropriate fitting equipment.

Some nice BB pads my clients have successfully used with appropriate underpadding, are the Christ Horse Dream BB pad (has billets), Best Friends (convert their girth to billets), Tacky Tack BB Pad ( convert to billets), Little Joe BB Pad (has billets).. All have an anatomical contour over the entire topline which I find even the low to no horses prefer. I personally would not use a BB Pad without an under pad to both cushion the back & form a spine channel.

There are also many treeless saddles on the market whose choice would depend on horse conformation, rider weight, rider skill,ride times, type of riding, terrain ridden in & climate ridden in. In treeless saddles, the under padding choices are key to both horse & rider comfort.

I ride one of my horses in an appropriately padded treeless & the other who is "A" frame, prominent spined, croup high & slab sided ( a riding equipment
challenge) in a homemade 3 layered high contour BB Pad, over a Skito 3/4" Inter Pad over a Balance International 12 oz 100% wool high contour saddle pad. We ride e/o day for 2 hours on the trail in all gaits for many years in this combo. with no problems my equine chiropractor can find other than normal age related stuff, but I am only 95lbs/5'2.

Forgot to add I like to see all under pads have an "no-seam" /"no feel seam" underside & my preference is 1005 wool next to horse.

Hope this gives you some options to explore.

Kaaren (new member)

Wow, Kaaren, what an absolutely fabulous, helpful post!

I was just wondering about bareback pads earlier today...it must have been in the air...



Thank you!

Best,
Leigh

Happy to be able to share what I have learned about equipment fit options.

Kaaren :lol:

Kaaren,

Thank-you so much! That's a fantastic amount of help! Freckles is a thin-skin A-frame horse with a VERY high wither and, as yet, not much top-line. He's almost 5 now, so I'm not particularly concerned about the top-line yet. I am a bony butt person, so that could well be what's going on.

It's not easy to source BB pads in RSA, but I have been looking. All I've found so far are thick sheepskin pads that are rectangular, which will be way to hot here! So no joy yet, but I'll keep trying!

I have recently aquired a Trekker Master with "pocket pads", and am currently trying to adjust the pocketed padding, but am finding that when I get it high enough the spine channel dissapears because the padding is positioned too close to the spine and his wither. I'm thinking about cutting the pocketed pads back a bit to create the required spinal channel. He obviously likes the feel of this saddle and moves so much fluidly. I've only had it on him 3 times, and get off as soon as the saddle "settles" onto him - which it is designed to do in about 5 minutes. It fits him very nicely but is designed to settle a bit, and that, as well as his lack of top-line, is what is creating the minor problem. I need to "simulate" top-line muscles for a year or so while he grows, or continue with the Wintec saddle I have been using with a "riser and concussion pad" underneath, and it's nice, cool, cotton saddle blanket.

I don't want to use the big sheepskin pads because of heat considerations, but am considering taking one of my sheepskin hides and shaving a channel into it and then adding pockets between the pad and the saddle that are carefully placed to create a fairly wide spine channel. This would allow me to carefully shape the hide to the minimum size needed to support the saddle and reduce it's heat generation. I would be interested in your opinion of this possibility.

_________________
Glen Grobler

Words that soak into your ears are whispered...not yelled. Anon

i have this one

it is such as a bareback but you can place some stirrups.

it is made from plastic so you can swim with this very easy.

you have to think about the presure on the stirrups, but if you know that it will be okay. i do not use them for riding i need them to get up my horse if there is nothing to stand up for. And sometimes for some ballance.
My horse is sometimes very quick in go forwards and stop
then it is very fine to have something to lean on
But during riding i have no presure on the stirrups.
i he is very smooth in his gaites

Glen:

I have found that horses like yours (high whithers,"A" frame" esp need the contour in the under pad as well. I'd be careful about pad pull down which can create many issues. My little "A" frame Icey has a "skunk stripe" of white hairs from just that issue before I figured out what was going on with no help from Vets, saddle fitters ,equine chiro that I paid $$$$ to for trouble shooting consult.

Not familiar with the saddle you are using , so can't be of help there.

Can you get a 1/2" Prolite half pad from the UK??? or a Mattes or Grandeur pocket pad??? I like to cut the great Prolite foam out of their cover & use it in another pad cover. If your saddle has a tree or a front solid piece which acts as a tree, then you need to take into consideration your padding thickness as it will change the fit. Bear in mind also that horses muscles engorge in work, so tree/solid pieces need to be wide enough with an interface padding (which I always rec) to accomodate this factor.

Kaaren

Regarding the "Phantom " BB Pad/ saddle...I tried one & on the very broad horses, the metal struts (stirrup/girth hanger area) dug into the horse at the sides near the rear with rider on. So for those that have this type of horse watch carefully/pad carefully.

I like to have someone in the saddle/pad of choice with me on the ground walking next to horse putting my hands under the equipments as far in as I can to see about various pressures.

Kaaren

we have this




to check if the saddle is giving some presure somewere on the horses back.
But there is one thing your horse need to be "straight line walking" how do you say that in english?? in dutch "rechtgericht lopen" otherwise you can have some wrong answers from the pad.
I have seen it by several people and give a good idea of the saddlefitting.
it save your hands

I have used the Port lewis Impression Pad as another input source, but you have to use it under the padding system you are riding with in both bareback pads & treeless to get accurate feedback. If you are only using a thin pad under your treed saddle then it can be also good, but only if the pad is the same density & thickness as your numnah or you will get false readings as the PLIP will change the fit of the saddle by lifting it away from the horse, You can get false positives & inaccurate readings. Same for the Computerized Testing. The pad you put under the saddle is different material that most saddle pads with all the contact pads wires etc. I have found that nothing substitutes for the sensitivity of my hands as I am an energy/body worker. But none-the- less the PLIP can by another source of feedback. Most of all what the horse says.

Kaaren

Saddlehelp, (and everyone else)

I have a locally made "copy" of a Mattes pad. It has neoprene pads to insert in the pockets. What I am seeing is that the insert pockets are either too close to the spinal channel, or on the wrong side of the pad!

That is why I am thinking to put a sheepskin wool-side down with a carved channel in the wool, and then the pockets between that and the saddle, with the sheepskin in some way attached to the saddle in the channel to prevent the pull-down effect.

Oh, I don't know - all I can really do is experiment until I get it sorted! At least the rigid Wintec fits him as if it's custom-made, and I check his back after every ride and he's never indicaed any kind of tenderness.

It's just that he moves better in the new one! I'll get there one way or the other!

I so appreciate your input here - everything you say increases my knowledge and opens a new option!

_________________
Glen Grobler



Words that soak into your ears are whispered...not yelled. Anon

Glen:

Yes, this can sometimes happen with "knock offs" esp. if the people who knock it off are not riders with a keen eye..or not even riders!!

Yes, experimenting is sometimes the only way..keep it up!!

In terms of foam being too close together/pockets looking too close together, just trim the foam in the pockets to the width you need.

Sometimes horses with backs as you described yours do well with a treed saddle...but I still like to fit the tree wide enough to put somesort of an interface pad underneathe that has either a firmwr foam such as Prolite of temp. sensitive such as Skito Equalizer foam to accomodate for the changes the horse's back makes in movement/for shock absorption. My web-site has an entire section on saddle fit taken from a lecture I gave at Monte Roberts a few years back. My web-site is:Kaarenjordan.com.

Also most important in fitiing any saddle, but esp treed, is that you fit with the working horse's topline in mind with rider IN the saddle. The riders weight changes everything.

Be most careful with the Wintecs using the CAIR panels as man of the equine chiros have found they create issues in terms of pivots because they are one bag filled too full. They act as rolling pin type panels as well. I much prefer the Wintecs with the wool flockor even foam panels.

Lauriche Saddles in the UK make a lovely saddle to fit a variety of big horse breed backs (ie not pony breeds), as well as Frank Baines, UK, & Albion, UK . The latter fit TB backs the best.

Kaaren

yes you are right...but all little things can help.
sometimes your feelings are lost because you have tryed so many things and you do not trust your feelings anymore
we all learning from this, what you wrote it is very handy...thanks...

Kaaren,



The foam in the pockets is not the main culprit! It's the damn velcro they close the pockets with - it extends into the channel.





I don't understand what you mean by "pivots" and "rolling pin panels" - please educate me?

_________________
Glen Grobler



Words that soak into your ears are whispered...not yelled. Anon

Pivot points are places under the panels of treed saddles where the underside of the tree/panels is not a similar shape to the horse's moving back shape. These places will act like a rocker where instead of the entire panel supporting the tree rails, it will be concentrated to a smaller area where it will rock across like a teeter totter. You can check for this while the horse is standing with saddle on un-girthed with a helper asking the horse to lift the back to simulate movement(hands under the midline of the belly with gentle asking upward with the fingertips) by putting a hand on the cantle & the pommel alternately rocking each back & forth. Ideally, there should be little movement when the horse's back is lifted. On my web-site in the saddle fit section is a description of how to select saddles & how th trouble shoot. It is free for anyone to read or download.

Rolling pin panels are those that are shaped like a rolling pin on the underside like you would use to roll out a pastry. Ideally you want a broad , flat surface that would give as much support as possible to diffuse pressure/weight rather than a smaller rounded place that sits on top of the muscles. Also the pitch of the panels side to side need to conform to the pitch of the horse's back as well as the front to back curvature of the panels/rails conforming to the shape of the horse when the horse is in the working topline not the standing topline.

It is a great idea to watch how your horse's back changes within all the gaits with no tack moving freely which will give a general idea of what this animal does in movement. More difficult, but not impossible is to determine how the rider changes this way of going once on -board. Most of the treed saddle fitters I studied with watched the horse moving free first, then with rider on in all the gaits, then adjusted flocking. Re-checked with rider on until they were satisfied it was the best that could be done at the moment. The people I studied with also recommend getting a re-check on flocking usually every 6 months if you ride 10-12 hours a week or annually if less often. Horses moving up through the dressage levels or young horses need more frequent assessment because their backs change more quickly.

Hope this isn't too much information. Saddle fitting is such an art drawn from a pool of learned information. I think it is nice to educate yourself as much as possible to make informed decisions on your animals behalf.

Good job Glen for asking questions & for being such a good observer of your horses needs.

Kaaren

Kaaren,

Thank you so much. I never knew about the teeter-totter thing! My Wintec does not do that - I've been on enough steep hills with him to be sure I would have felt that.

I don't know if the pad I'm using is a Cair pad or not, sorry. It is a contoured white foam pad designed to absorb concussion - I figure because my horse is young it is good to minimise the concussion on his back. Oh, I ride a maximum of 2 hours a week, in 2 or 3 sessions.

The new Trekker has memory foam underneath in broad flat panels which conform to the horses back, which is why the saddle "settles" during the first 5 minutes. It is designed for good top-line muscling, however, which Freckle's still lacks (he's 4 years 9 months and 15 days old today )

I'm not expecting much topline for another year or so which may or may not prove to be true. He so obviously moves better in this saddle that I'm trying to find a good way to use it before he grows a top-line, also I feel "on" him in the Wintec and "in" him with the Trekker.

It may be a fruitless hunt, but it's good as I'm leaning much cool stiff along the way! Thank-you so much for your patience! I'm going to spend a few days faffing around with different ideas now!

_________________
Glen Grobler



Words that soak into your ears are whispered...not yelled. Anon