The Art of Natural Dressage

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 4:41 pm 
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Simon was unable to help Ben

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 4:56 pm 
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Nice photo's :)
Nice horses I like them so much :yes:

I didn't read all...
But maby will it help to do it first a short time, a few hours.

It is just a idea.

Good luck

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 3:47 pm 

Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2008 2:02 pm
Posts: 1072
Location: UK Worcester/Hereford border
I sent this message to a few knowledgeable horse behaviourists via facebook, expressing my personal concerns with use of grazing muzzles, for my own horses and horses generally in case anyone joins and reads these comments in the future:

I am posting photos and notes to this page:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3414

Whilst I am worried about my pony being overweight, and understand that he can enjoy liberty to exercise wearing a grazing muzzle to restrict his intake, I wonder if there are particular observational notes I should make or body language expressions that should be photographed or responded to.
Heart, lungs, lymphatic and just about every function of the body can be compromised by obesity, but I am concerned that other important factors of socialisation, communication and ability to select a wide plant variety, as when a horse nips the top from a thistle, or takes a rosehip, willow, ash, poplar, hazel and other leaves and the blackberries which are ripening are not available when attempting to push a muzzle hole over a leaf or fruit.

On a day when I am not at work it is possible to remove grazing muzzles, allow a few hours field freedom without the horses wearing them. They may of course gorge themselves and make up for lost time but I feel they need unmuzzled use of their lips and teeth whilst interacting with each other.

On working days I can arrive, bring the horses in for a feed of chaff,- linseed to combat sweet itch and other additives to balance their nutritional requirements,- but they may only have the muzzle removed for an hour of stable time.

The choice is then to leave them with 24/7 access to field, where they do have access to their stables and a field shelter, or to ask my husband to bring them into their stables and offer their chaff and supplements at this time, allowing them to stay in overnight, free of their muzzles and with a slice of hay.

Friends have strongly suggested that 24/7 access and choice for movement is the preferred option.
I feel that although it creates more work by way of mucking out, filling water buckets etc and therefore leaves less time to play and interact with my horses, they might be happier with time out of muzzles in their boxes for 12 hours a day.

(Tiny turnout paddocks would stop the horses from excercising up and down their hills, through their woodland and not allow grazing of a wide diversity of plants. Since the youngest horse does not require restricted grazing at this time he would either have to be fed extra in his bucket feeds or be isolated from his friends. Tiny turnout and strip grazing is not currently an option.)

Wearing a muzzle does not allow me to see their facial expressions. I can usually tell if they are "smiling".
Those clever, muscular top lips are unable to scratch a body part or use their teeth.
They are unable to respond and properly offer mutual grooming routines which are such a ritual and strengthen their bonds to each other.

Their free choice of selecting herbage, browse and fruits is severely compromised.
They are able to drink and to trickle feed on grass and the varieties of herbs at short growing levels but are not able to nip the leaves of taller pond marginals or trees which swing away from the muzzle and do not allow them to grip or bite at a plant.

I should be most grateful for any thoughts, pointers to research conducted or experiences found with other horses who have been successfully or unsuccessfully muzzled in order to reduce their weight.

I really do appreciate how busy people are, so I do not expect immediate responses. Thanks in advance for helping with my experiment.
Love Susie xx
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3414

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 3:53 pm 

Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2008 2:02 pm
Posts: 1072
Location: UK Worcester/Hereford border
This is the only study I have so far managed to refer to.

Effects of an Equine Grazing Muzzle on Grass Intake - a preliminary investigation
Tracey Hammond M.Sc. (Dist) B.Sc. (Hons)

Grazing muzzles are commonly recommended for controlling grass intake in overweight and laminitis prone horses and ponies, yet to the author's knowledge there has been no published research to demonstrate by how much these devices limit intake, although one manufacturer claims a restriction of 50-75%. Furthermore there are no reports on the effects of a muzzle on grazing behaviour and whether horses try and compensate for restriction, for example by increasing the time they spend grazing.

This study was a small preliminary investigation undertaken for an M.Sc. in Equine Science in 2005. Four young horses with no prior experience of using a grazing muzzle were used in the study. Grass intake was determined using a Liveweight Change method during a 6 hour study period and instantaneous scan sampling at 5 minute intervals was used to monitor the horse's behaviour, for example grazing or resting. At the end of the grazing period each horse was offered a standardised turf section and allowed to take ten bites. Bite depth, weight, area and volume were then measured to determine the effects of a grazing muzzle on bite parameters, which directly control the amount of grass consumed.

The results of this study demonstrated that the use of a grazing muzzle restricted grass intake by 75 - 86% in the horses used in this trial. The horses muzzled in this study did not appear to try and compensate for restriction and spent more time resting and less time grazing than horses that were grazing freely. Muzzled horses had a 50% reduction in bite depth and a 62% reduction in bite weight, which is likely to provide the strongest evidence for how and by how much a muzzle restricts intake.

Although this study provided some interesting results they should be used with caution as they only reflect this particular grazing situation with a very small number of horses, but do suggest that a grazing muzzle is an effective method for controlling grass intake. The duration of this study was not sufficient to identify if the horses grazing behaviour and therefore intake altered with experience of using the muzzle.

Top Tips for using a Grazing Muzzle
Introduce the muzzle gradually and make wearing it a positive experience. This can be achieved by gradually introducing the muzzle for short periods in the stable and rewarding your horse with a treat through the hole in the muzzle each time you put it on and take it off. As you progress outside with your horse wearing the muzzle feed grass through the hole so your horse gets the idea that he can still eat. Initially leave the muzzle on for short periods gradually building up the time your horse grazes with the muzzle on.
Make sure that your horse is comfortable drinking with the grazing muzzle on. Try this in the stable first by offering a bucket of water directly to your horse in hand and you will find they are quick to investigate, especially if you have been offering treats through the hole in the muzzle!
Make sure the muzzle fits correctly as this will help prevent your horse removing it!
Don't leave the muzzle on 24/7. Most manufacturers recommend up to 12 hours. Although you may be trying to restrict your horse's intake it is vital that enough fibre is supplied to maintain your horse's digestive health, so bring your horse into the stable when not at grass and supply low calorie/low sugar forage and feeds such as Dengie Hi-Fi Good Do-er or Dengie Hi-Fi Lite. Your horse or pony needs to eat up to 1 - 1.5% of their bodyweight in fibre each day.
When your horse is not wearing the grazing muzzle bring them in off the grass as they are able to graze freely and may even try to compensate for the restriction earlier in the day.
If you would like further information on the products mentioned or on Tracey's study call our feedline on 0845 345 5115

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 4:08 pm 
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Location: provincie Utrecht
hey
i understand your concerns...it is difficult to have to make choices which is the best for the horse.
Health or play or talking or how we look to them when they struggle with the restriction.
it is heavy for the owner to choose which is the best.
i dont have a large area as you have so i dont have these problems. i have other problems :-) a paradise will come somewere in the future i am still hoping.
so i can not help you to give a good advise which is the best for your situation. But i am sure you will find a way to solve this problem.
Do you already know why he have obese?? Is it only from too much eating? or are there any other "things"?
Sometimes they go along together...which result in obese


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 4:45 pm 

Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2008 2:02 pm
Posts: 1072
Location: UK Worcester/Hereford border
Thanks Inge,
Daniel converts feed readily and can manage with much less than the same weight Thoroughbred horse in my opinion.
I would be interested in the ethology and behavioural, social and nutritional science based studies pertaining to using these muzzles.

I am happy to do no more than settle and watch from a bank and observe their interactions for as long as I can manage to remain unnoticed. I am looking for differences, I want to know what the implications maybe over the longer term.

Daniel is only 5 years old, late gelded and father of 5 coloured foals.
I do believe this change leads to his spending more time finding hay to pull from the barn andfood being higher on his priorities list.
As a colt/stallion, sex, interaction with the older retired horses, his wife and child occupied more time so grazing was sufficient but not his raison d'etre.
I doubt his metabolism will change so he will require grazing and intake supervision over the next few decades.

I need to establish what is the best way to have a happy equine able to use equine language and social skills as well as tackle and prevent health issues due to obesity.

Very little that I can find in research to answer the questions and concerns that raise themselves in my busy "monkey chatter" brain. xx

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http://www.flickr.com/photos/piepony/


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 10:18 pm 

Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 9:58 pm
Posts: 1622
Location: Western Cape, South Africa
I understand the implications of fencing and paddock setups and realise that this is not possible at this time. However, would it be possible to fence off an area (bare lot) where they are free to move and interact but thier feed intake is monitored by hay ration. (Like arena size) Although this is not giving them the range of movement they have on open terrain, they will still have herd/bonding/playing and access to roughage (controlled). You could then "let them out" for short periods to graze at will without the muzzles. If you were to put this centrally it may also be possible to sepererate Dan with the others still being able to touch/see him. A small electric moveable paddock fence might also work well.
For me standing in a stable environment would seem more damaging than standing free in a dry lot type small paddock. Although the movement is still restricted it could be a half measure.

I agree that wearing a muzzle, like shoes and stabling is a man made solution to a man made problem and however humane is not natural and must interfere with what would take place without the muzzle. It would indeed be interesting to see the effects studied in detail. We have a problem today with the type of grazing, the limited land available (bearing in mind a horse will travel extensively and even large chunks of land don't equate to movement in nature), the gelding and implications thereof and we are left with horses that can't cope. :blush: :sad:

Susie you will work out what's best for them because you have their best interests at heart. You will know better than most owners if there is a real negative side within a short time because you know your horses so well. I know we feel so bad sometimes having to stop our horses doing things that are natural for them but if we are to keep them domesticated then we need to be responsible for their health too......

I have had some terrible times with stabling at livery to the point where I wondered if I should rather let Morgan go back to a large range and set him free to be wild and perhaps I was selfish to want to keep him domesticated. I have seen though with each move and improvement how he has grown and today is well balanced and settled and treated as "close to nature" as I can find still locally. He is still locked up in a large sand paddock for some 12 hours a day minimum where I can control his intake with hay. He is slightly overweight (due to my guilt at him having nothing to eat if I don't give him enough hay), but if he had access to the grazing he gets when out of his paddock I would have the exact same issue you do now.

This is also another reason why if I really want Morgan to be fit (and I mean cardio and muscles not just losing weight), then I also need to ride him. I can ride or not, I feel pretty indifferent either way. :funny: Unfortunately for me I feel guilty enough about his health to make myself try and ride more!

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Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans. - John Lennon


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 1:38 am 

Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2008 2:02 pm
Posts: 1072
Location: UK Worcester/Hereford border
Annette, thank you for the vote of confidence.

We have had 3 electric fence energisers stolen from our field at different times.

If Dan finds a fence on he raises his adrenalin and rushes it, pushing through with more force until the poles pop out of the ground or the tape breaks.

He is more respectful when this type of fence is used in a small area to give lambs at their first few times out at grass somewhere to run under to avoid the horses when they play and gallop, but it is not trying to fence him in then.

Wooden stakes are rubbed on by giant hairy horses and being riverside, we sometimes have floods, which completely loosened all the last lot of more than 1/2 a mile of fencing stakes in the bottom. Consequently. Steve would rather not provide the same amount of labour again for me.

I do understand the arena sized pasture, but I really feel that it is too limiting for a horse and again restricts access to varieties of browse.
I would only be happy with arena sized turnout providing this can be attached to the barn or field shelter and not an in or out with no choice solution.

I guess in my lifetime I have clocked up a good few thousand miles riding, these days I ride worse than a novice who has never had instruction.
I used to get my horses fully race fit and they were capable of hacking 30 miles a day with ease or galloping 3 miles or more across country and under rules.

Due to Dan needing more training to be safe on our busy roads to hack out, my arthritis and lowering hip, I cannot manage to walk as far or as often as I did with previous foals I raised, and having a human shepherd to accompany is a luxury which has to be paid for, even a friend cannot be expected to help without their petrol/diesel costs as a minimum being covered.
Well that is the current excuse list.

Yes, EXERCISE, even 10 minutes a day at liberty or lunging will help to raise the metabolic rates and help food conversion.

Today I removed the muzzles before lunch and allowed the boys time for free grazing and interaction.
I returned some 6 hours later with the intention of bringing them into the barn for the night.
Only Dan and Ben to have doors closed with Arthur free to come and go and give nuzzles over walls and gates.

When I arrived back to bring the boys in after several hours unmuzzled, I could only see Ben's hind legs stuck outside the barn door.
So with free choice to graze and stay out they were again inside their barn.
Arthur appeared in the barn doorway and left Ben waiting to enter.

Arthur has not been muzzled, but he is only 3 years old.
He heard my car and came to meet me at the gate.
Image
110920103 by susie_piepony, on Flickr

Daniel usually comes to the gate but he was busy maintaining his boss status in case there was any hay inside that he preferred not to share with Ben.
Image
11092010 by susie_piepony, on Flickr

Ben waited for me to point at Dan's stable, let him go in and close his gate on him, then I can open Ben's door and allow him in without Daniel intervening.
They happily wait for me to mix dinner and eating in their separated stables prevents sharing, when I need to ensure who has how much of mag.ox, turmeric, linseed etc.
Image
110920103891-001 by susie_piepony, on Flickr

And then Steve and I walked the perimeter hedges with both dogs, Simon and Jonathon, and thanked the girls for their contribution to equine diet regimes.
Cleo is watching Simon.
Image
11092010 by susie_piepony, on Flickr

Tomorrow I will turn out with muzzles, then remove them for an hour and bring them in for the night again, although no further removal time would be possible if I were on a scheduled work day.
So many questions......xx

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http://www.flickr.com/photos/piepony/


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 2:39 pm 

Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2008 2:02 pm
Posts: 1072
Location: UK Worcester/Hereford border
I know my horses get movement.
These must be from yesterday, Daniel heading back towards the barn along the top track.
What I don't get is why both hinds tread the same narrow part of the sheep track, there is enough room for him to walk properly here.
Image
12092010 by susie_piepony, on Flickr

A view towards the top track.
Image
12092010 by susie_piepony, on Flickr

Jonathon chats to a rabbit family under a bush on a slope at the far end of the field.
The slope to pasture from the end of the top track.
Image
12092010 by susie_piepony, on Flickr

Yarrow, trefoil, vetch, wide variety of plants live in this old meadow.
Image
12092010 by susie_piepony, on Flickr

This land would not suit dairy cattle, but it offers much to horses and sheep and beef cattle can grow slowly and correctly, except DEFRA wants them sold before they mature, so we no longer keep cattle.
Image
12092010 by susie_piepony, on Flickr

Blackberries covering a hawthorn.
Image
12092010 by susie_piepony, on Flickr

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http://www.flickr.com/photos/piepony/


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 2:47 pm 

Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2008 2:02 pm
Posts: 1072
Location: UK Worcester/Hereford border
Jonathon waited for me whilst I picked blackberries and we headed towards the horses. Daniel was going for a drink at the pond. He does have access to the River Rundle which is home to Grayling, Brown Trout, Salmon par, Chub and many other fish varieties.

Image
12092010 by susie_piepony, on Flickr

Daniel has spotted me, or he has smelt the blackberries in my pockets.
Image
12092010 by susie_piepony, on Flickr

I popped berries into Ben and Daniels muzzles, and gave in to Arthur who could pick his own.
Dan came with me through a damp narrow track under trees, over a fallen log to one of his wild mint patches.
We have quite a few types of mint growing wild along the tracks, side of the old drainage ditch and besides the pond.
Image
12092010 by susie_piepony, on Flickr


A patch of mint. I picked some for Dan and fed it through his muzzle.
Image
12092010 by susie_piepony, on Flickr

One of the lower tracks the mint chooses to live beside.
Image
12092010 by susie_piepony, on Flickr

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http://www.flickr.com/photos/piepony/


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 2:52 pm 

Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2008 2:02 pm
Posts: 1072
Location: UK Worcester/Hereford border
Ben grazing with his muzzle on, taken from Daniel's mint patch.
I am quite slim with these banks, my pony is fat.
Image
12092010 by susie_piepony, on Flickr

The photo is fuzzy because Dan is trying to pick blackberries and knocking stems with his muzzle on.
Image
12092010 by susie_piepony, on Flickr




And I Caved In and removed the muzzles.

Image
12092010 by susie_piepony, on Flickr

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Susie xx
http://www.flickr.com/photos/piepony/


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 2:58 pm 

Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2008 2:02 pm
Posts: 1072
Location: UK Worcester/Hereford border
Arthur is in this photo, but he is black and in the shadows. You can see why he definately requires lots of Hi-Viz to be taken out for road walks.
Ben has had his blackberries and his muzzle taken off.
Image
12092010 by susie_piepony, on Flickr


Pony and sheep tracks run between groves of woodland.

Can you see Arthur now?
Image
12092010 by susie_piepony, on Flickr

Dan grazing without his muzzle.
Most of the field was topped by a tractor but some of the banks are too steep, so the thistles have somewhere to hide, as long as they do not take over..

Now can you spot Arthur?
Image
12092010 by susie_piepony, on Flickr

Dan and Ben can come in later and have a little hay overnight. xx

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http://www.flickr.com/photos/piepony/


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 3:28 pm 
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Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 4:08 am
Posts: 122
Location: Alberta, Canada
I know there are so many things to think about, but keep in mind that the short term losses will bring big changes. Comet's mood and personality keeps changing for the better, and his physical health and energy levels were worth the short term effects of having the muzzle on. We didn't have much choice initially as he had foundered, and was severely obese when we acquired him from a couple who were divorcing and practically giving away their horses that had been by and large neglected for years. A couple of months after we got him he had a series of painful abscesses and we knew we had to make big changes and help him grow new healthy hooves. Comet did lose weight very quickly...we noticed changes in his size and shape right away, and he even started to bond to us more. Now five months later we don't use the muzzle regularly anymore, we just put it on if we measure him and he seems to be gaining, so we put it on and off for a few days to slow him down.

We made sure that we gave him a couple hours grazing without the muzzle every day, plus a bowl of minerals, prebiotics, omega oils, cookies etc. I also did lots of shared grazing with him, as Annette had suggested as part of bonding with him. I would just walk with him and pick stuff to feed him through his muzzle. He was so antisocial when first got him, after not being handled much for a long time that it is hard to say how it would have affected him if he was already well adjusted. For us though the most critical thing was to get the weight off fast. The vet told us to aim for seeing his ribs, which we still can't see, and I'm not sure that is necessary, as he is looking and feeling so good now, and getting so much exercise in the hills of there pasture which is probably 80 or 100 acres in size.

Just keep trusting that you are doing what you need to keep your horses healthy and happy, and you will find the right balance that works for all of you. It might be a bit of trial and error in the beginning but hopefully soon you can find a routine that works. :f:

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 3:54 pm 

Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2008 2:02 pm
Posts: 1072
Location: UK Worcester/Hereford border
Lisa, thank you for the encouragement.

I know Daniel must lose weight. He has 1/10th the land Comet has to roam in.
I shall use the muzzle Mon, Tues, Wed for daytime turnout, and leave the stables ready so my husband can bring the boys in and allow them some muzzle relief overnight.
Thurs + Fri they can have a few hours unmuzzled, then Sat+Sun, muzzled turnout.

It is the mental health, not being able to use those whiskers, lips, teeth etc and not display facial expressions, and not mutually groom each other which is bothering me, as well as the limitations imposed on plant variety.

Keep popping in and telling me, please.

I would like to find published research on the social and behavioural effects of muzzling. xx

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Susie xx
http://www.flickr.com/photos/piepony/


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 6:46 pm 
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Posts: 3688
Location: Pacific Northwest U.S.
Susie,
You are so right about your boys needing social time. It's well established that horses mental health is effected by isolation and part of that isolation would certainly be to have their senses dimmed or blocked by any means.

I do think that they learn very quickly to compensate though, just as someone that has hearing or vision loss ... but it does change their lives and interactions. That you see to it they have unmuzzled social time together is very important and I'm so glad you are doing it.

Altea and Bonnie, mother and daughter, have moved well into the herd society together and gradually away from the parent-child model (though behavioral bits and pieces are still retained as in all adult horses and humans).

And because Altea is pretty severely IR yet needs her roaming and exploration time outside, and Bonnie needs to have her herd buddy with her too out there in the paddock, I do muzzle Altea. I've been watching her and she is accomodating well, but every day, a couple of hourse before the evening feeding and bedtime when they are safely tucked away from the lions and bears (lion sightings have taken place on my property just a few feet from the barn), they get time together in the stable hard enclosure.

Great fun as they do their grooming and their petty arguing that buddies so enjoy.

They also have access and of course a view of each other with nose to nose physical contact between the bars of their stall. They can get their noses part way through, though a lion couldn't squeeze through.

I'd love to turn Altea out on the paddock with all its wonderful varied browse that Bonnie so enjoys. But I cannot.

She worried her stall door open not long ago due to a faulty rusted part that allowed the door to slide past the stop bar - clever girl that she is - and she went to the lovely green back meadow we keep watered for a fire break. I doubt she could have been out more than half an hour when I found her and put her away. I fussed over cooling her hooves for two days but she did go a bit sensitive on them, and worse, her crest thickened and hardened as well. We made it through but it reminded me how very careful I have to be about her security.

I've come to accept, though like you it troubles me and hurts to see her wanting so badly to be out of that muzzle, that I must put guarding against founder as a priority way ahead of mine and Altea's mental comfort.

Kate and I spent and entire horrible icey cold winter keeping Altea moving in her daily exercise to save her hooves from the ravages of that terrible founder she must have gone through to create the severe laminitis she showed.

While we were pained and inconvenienced to a degree not entirely healthy for old timers of our age, our pain was nothing compared to what she, Altea, suffered. I think I cried the entire time I was walking her, though I swore it was just the cold making my eyes tear up.

I want never to have her go through that again, so I am religious about her security against free access to forage.

She is doing wonderfully well now, thank goodness. And we can go out riding occasionally - great fun.

Donald Image

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Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.


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