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PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:31 pm 
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Which is by the way a completely normal classical aid (A customer came in and I hit send by mistake ha ha !) So I like you Karen do not understand why it is taught different :huh:

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 7:54 pm 
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I always get a bit confused when I turn my pelvis... where to keep my shoulders and where to have my feet.
When I turn my pelvis, I don't know I heard one person telling me my insideleg will be farther back and my outside leg will be mor forward and the other telling me the other way around.
I will try to fins domething of how the horse moves (without a rider) in a turn and a bend and I should move with her accordingly.

So I sort of get lost where to keep my feet, when to move what one to keep long and how to drive and... I should just go sitting on her and feel what she does when she makes a turn but how to get that turn to feel it? :huh:

I'm thinking about it, it needs some time to sink in and I have all this conflicting information!

Thanks alot, and please add more, the more information, the more confusion but the more understanding after maybe a longer time, but I'd like to get all I know.

Thanks!

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 8:14 pm 
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Just stand like you were sitting on a horse and turn your pelvis

or sit on a firm fence, let your legs dangle and turn your pelvis

Your pelvis is your starting point, your upperbody and upperlegs follow, and then your arms and lower legs follow
just try things and see what Ruphina does... action-reaction

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 1:03 am 
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Worse yet, I see many riders pull the inside rein out and DOWN (and by doing that they also lean to the inside). I don't know who taught them to do that, but it's so counter to keeping the inside shoulder up and balanced that I can't imagine anyone teaching someone to do that.


I have had many trainers suggest that, actually, coming from serious dressage competition backgrounds.

I'm not saying I agree with this teaching, but wanted to say that I think it's indicative of a very different approach to the mechanics of riding than the one you're using, Karen. This is coming from a place of stepping your weight into the inside stirrup and pushing the horse's rib cage over, asking him to curl around the pressure of your inside leg.

Here's what I got taught about it:
When you do that, and you bring the inside rein out, the reasoning (as it was taught to me) is that this opens up the horse's head on circle (softening the bend through his whole neck) and making him less likely to pop out his shoulder. It also opens up the rider's chest and energy more in alignment with the circle. The downward motion is a bit about keeping the horse from tilting his head away from the bit. a bit about getting him soft on the bit, and also in keeping with a fixation on always keeping the rider's hands thinking down rather than pulling up. (Lots and lots of time spent working to get hands on a level with the withers in my dressage training world -- this is a competition concern, I bet, as I think about it...)

I think you're right, and it can invite the horse to drop his inside shoulder, especially if the rider is leaning to the inside (which is hard, though not impossible, to avoid doing, at least with the level of nuance around rider body movement/weight that this style of riding is generally working with).

So -- I agree with you and Josepha, and think if the inside rein gets opened, it should be at least straight out, if not up and out.

But I just wanted to point out that the technique comes from a very different logic about how one rides effectively.

;)

xo
Leigh

Oh -- just went to post and saw that Josepha mentioned that up and out was a normal classical aid -- I'm wondering if this might be a America/Europe difference because I got taught 'out and down' by several trainers and see people doing it all the time, especially if their horse is having trouble on the bend...there are definitely differences in approach, even in "traditional" and "classical" methods between this continent and that. I find it really fascinating!

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 1:17 am 
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PPS:

I love, BTW, Josepha, the simplicity of "the pelvis is the start of everything." This makes so much sense to me!

It's where I started instinctively when I began riding again as an adult -- it makes sense because your pelvis is what's most directly talking to your horse. I think centaur -- I think about melding my pelvis with my horse's back (or I did when I was actually riding...sigh...moment of self pity.. :roll: ;) ) and work to getting the conversation going so softly and freely and openly between the two of us that neither one of us is quite sure where the movement originated.

Then I got talked into all sorts of "bring this hand up, this heel back" etc. fussiness and got completely confused and really tight and thinking waaaaaay too hard. I actually discovered that I could ride a lot better when I was really exhausted or didn't feel well because I stopped listening to all of that detail and just got out of my head into my body...

I think this is why I'm still resistant to any really specific direction about exactly where hands and feet, etc. should be -- if you think pelvis and think listening with it as much as talking with it, I think you're more often than not close to where you need to be. Or at least I am! :alien:

(And along those lines, if my hands come up or out, when it's working for me that still comes out of the pelvis and the horse's movement -- usually as an effort to open our energies up together if they feel too tight...like lungs expanding... I'm never going to be a still dressage person! :funny: Made my trainers crazy! I'm dancing up there!)

:green: I am a goof...

xoxox
L.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 9:38 am 
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Oh -- just went to post and saw that Josepha mentioned that up and out was a normal classical aid -- I'm wondering if this might be a America/Europe difference because I got taught 'out and down' by several trainers and see people doing it all the time, especially if their horse is having trouble on the bend...there are definitely differences in approach, even in "traditional" and "classical" methods between this continent and that. I find it really fascinating!


Up and out is normal in the Academic Riding Art and Classical dressage based on the Academic Art.

In the modern/traditional sport riding we see what you also see, taking the inside rein out and down or even towards the rider and down.
The differences between the two approaches is that the first is based on the gymnasium, the second on obedience. I always explain in my clinics that these two concepts ‘Gymnasium’ and ‘obedience’ get just as mixed up in horse training as ‘aids’ and ‘commands’

In the first manner of riding one is using aids to help the horse not to damage his body.
In the second one is using commands to get the horse to do what one wants. The second one is a direct result of not understanding the horse’s biomechanics.
Many people instruct without having any clue of the horse’s biomechanics. And it is no wonder as there is nothing of that – whatsoever- in the instructor’s courses! But we find things on mounting from the left etc.

As soon as Ralph and I find our new place, TAONARA will start a two years instructors education which will contain of 3 parts; 1. Horse biomechanics 2. Horse culture, psyche and instinct 3. Academic Riding Art. These 3 components make this Natural Academic Riding art, Hence the name TAONARA (who was invented by Glen by putting the letters is The Academy Of Natural Academic Riding Art together).
We have already people on a list who want to start this course!

The inside rein aids goes two ways, one, the actual rein aid itself is to ask with a slight nudge to bend the head a little towards the inside, just so the rider can see the horse eye.
It in fact does not matter how one does it, what matters is that one should RELEASE the contact rein immediately after the nudge! One could nudge again perhaps, but always release within mere seconds.

The inside reins lifting is the second way, this one is to make the rider aware of the inside hand and what it is doing. Lifting the reins make to release faster. Second, it cures riders who tend to hang to the inside to stay straight on their horse.
I have one rider who tends to hang to the outside on a circle, him I ask to drop his elbow to his upper leg, releasing the very long inside rein.
There is no correct seat in movement, there is only correct movement and that is not static and changes with every pace, horse, rider and time frame within the education of both.
What is right depends on the laws of physics for that particular moment.

The inside rein nudge will however only work when the rider is doing correct things with his body which I explained before.
Now, it is precisely that what goes wrong. Then the horse can not take the correct bend for the rider is in the way (often taking their inside leg back or pushing with the outside leg far back and their pelvis straight, the weight on inside seat bone and stirrup…)
Then a nudge on the inside reins will not do anything so the pulling out and down on the inside reins starts, trying to achieve a band from the head and neck that can only occur from the horses pelvis and ribcage.
The most problems arise of course on the difficult or round side of the horse (The hollow side is the easy side). Then the horse can not make the same bend he can do on the other lead and riders try to fix it with the rein and then say; correct circles are so difficult.
Yeah well, you try to make one, if someone is pulling on the inside of your head…

And, mostly, the inside reins is not needed at all as the inside leg of the rider, giving the leg aid at the correct time (when the inside leg want to come under) and at the correct place (as long as possible on the girth).
The inside reins is then more for attention or education. When the horse is lost with his mind and or has never been allowed before to respond to what comes natural and logical to his body.
The inside rein nudge can then say; Yes, you now may respond accordingly to what you feel you should do.

Now, if we speak of the inside rein there is a very important factor we should speak more of; the outside rein.
When we use the inside rein, we ALWAYS should use the outside rein as counterbalance.
You see, it is the rein we take up that makes weight go onto the shoulder on that same side.
On the circle, because of nature’s laws, there will be automatically be more weight on the inside shoulder of the horse. Now, we want to divide that weight as evenly as possible to both shoulders to make sure the body of the horse (shoulders and front legs) are not harmed.
So in conclusion, we take up the outside rein and keep it on contact, enough not to loose the horse head but not so much as to prevent the horse from turning.
Now, when you turn with your pelvis (Other hip forward) and your upper arm hangs next to your upper body as it should, with bend elbows, your wrists bended slight to the outside, your thumb on top and your pinky hold slack like you where drinking tea English style (The old masters had a clear biomechanical reason for everything!), then the magic happens! Because your outside hand will automatically hold the correct contact on the outside and give enough without releasing in the bend!
The inside rein is slack and may only nudge if that at all.
If it does not work, look at what you are doing with your body instead of trying to ‘get it’ with your inside rein.
THIS is what straightening is about and is the first step towards correct laterals.

Most riders do the exact opposite; They pull the inside rein and let the outside rein hang, they lower the inside hand and bring the outside hand up and often even over the neck of the horse to the inside! Possibly ever ounce of weight they can brought to the inside… completely illogical and the most unhealthy thing for horse and might I add, the rider!

Why the reins, why not just the cordeo one might ask? Ah! Well, it is my experience that when horses are made crooked by riders who use reins incorrectly (by pulling the head down and to the inside), we alas need reins to fix that situation again. Above is explained how and why.
As soon as the horse is no longer crooked, the outside rein can go as slack as the inside rein and the cordeo can take over completely.

With this situation to fix (and I think it is 90% of my students when they first arrive) I however first let them ride with the cordeo only to teach them how to actually ride a circle from the seat and second, I get 100% information from the horse which I need to know what is going on. When the rider rides circles with the reins, it like trying to watch television with someone flapping his arms before your view… You can certainly see and hear what show is on, but you can not really follow it.

To prevent the universal inside rein pulling, that was why the old masters had every one rider with the reins in one hand. You bring your hand forward and then to the inside, the inside reins then releases, the outside rein supports the outside of the neck and this only works when the rider gives the correct aids with his seat. And talking about continents… isn’t that the correct way of western turns, Leigh? It should be, as western riding is based on the Spanish school which is based on Academic Riding.
But again, when the damage is already done, the best way to fix it, is by using the outside rein.

Shall I turn this into a sticky?
This was time well spend as I can use this text as it is in the book I am writing, just have to translate it to Dutch again ha ha !

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 11:00 am 
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Oh, yes, Josepha, I think this would be a great sticky!

And I think your delineation between true classical training and sport training is a good one -- better than what I was fumbling towards with my Europe/America thoughts. And at least in the US, there are lots of folks who say they teach classically when they are teaching to competition -- I think part of it is the further step away from the historically classical rider/writers, which was the origin of my wonderings about the difference between ideas on the two continents. (Not too many dressage riders here who've read La Guerinere, for example, or even heard of him...)

And I agree that there are lots of folks out there who don't understand biomechanics particularly well (for horses or humans -- because I understand human so much better than horse, this was a particular point of contention with a lot of trainers I've worked with -- things that I knew weren't healthy or logical for the human body got taught all the time -- lots of arguments! ).

And I think that perceptions about biomechanics are very different when you are always asking for movement rather than demanding or pushing into movement -- as you said, the difference between gymnasium and obedience. I think that there are a lot of people who work in old modalities about how the body moves, how it should be moved (either horse or human) -- the "no pain, no gain" way of thinking that pushes bodies hard.

I've been re-committing to Pilates over the last six months (intermittently between various medical/mishap set backs!) and I am finding it such a helpful metaphor for me as I'm thinking about my horses. We have such a cultural commitment to striving here in the US -- we bash things into submission and figure harder, longer, faster, and bigger are always better. The simple message of slow, soft, and light and how effective that can be has been SO powerful for me. When in doubt, slow, soft, and light works, almost without fail.

(Which gets me thinking about Laban movement analysis again...are you familiar with this at all, Josepha? It's from the dance world -- oooh, I would LOVE to play with this with you some time... Laban/Bartinieff Effort/Shape -- it's a way of breaking down and thinking through the intensity, speed, and directness of movement. I've babbled a little bit about it on other threads, but I think it would be a really fascinating counterpoint in your Bach fugue of teaching...)

Anyhoo, babbling again.

But sticky, yes, please!

And love this thought:

Quote:
There is no correct seat in movement, there is only correct movement and that is not static and changes with every pace, horse, rider and time frame within the education of both.
What is right depends on the laws of physics for that particular moment.

:yes: :yes: :yes: :yes: :yes:

This makes so much sense to me.

xo
L.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 12:16 pm 
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Quote:
(Not too many dressage riders here who've read La Guerinere, for example, or even heard of him...)


More might of heard of him here in North and South West Europe (because of Riding Istitutions ans the Spanish Riding School in Vienna or Le Cadre Noir in France), but I do not know of many riders who read him… Not actually reading the old masters but only pactising riding art from the fact that they used bits and had horses who seemed to have curled necks is – what I think – the bases of the problems of illogical and harmful riding all over.

Anyway, I have nothing to add to your reply :)

I had never heard about Laban movement analysis but went to google and got very intrigued.
I think though, that we best start a new topic on that in the research section… see you there?

:kiss:

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 2:35 pm 
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ARgh! Just lost my post! Have to start again..

I completely agree with Josepha's description on the turn! Yesyesyes! Everything! From the pelvis to the pinky! Great description Josepha.

Almost everyone I see is pulling out and down to turn too, and you'll often see their wrist rotating to the inside to do it as well, creating complete brace from their wrist, elbow, up into their shoulder right into their neck... because it's hard to be strong with your thumbs up and opening out, and you're going to need strength to pull your horse into a turn like that. (And the less experienced are usually looking at their horses head at the same time too.) And then funnily enough, they insist that their horse is bracing.. and they have to use the inside leg pushing in the barrel to get them to bend, and then the outside leg to hold the haunches in on and track, and then squeeze the end of the toothpaste tube more to keep them moving forward, and more rein to stop them going too forward....
Yes, a horse can (and often has to) learn to turn, perhaps even gracefully once they're athletic enough, by having their nose levered down over the direction of their inside shoulder.. but it doesn't come easily to them or the rider.

It's very strange logic to me.. because a horse can move beautifully in a perfectly straight and balanced turn without us on their backs hauling them round and down, and pushing them out and holding them in, and holding them back and pushing them on.. So why do they need all this when we ride them? I would say two reasons.. The greatest being that they're having to fight against the loss of balance that their rider is creating with less than optimum cueing... and only secondly because they lack the motivation.

So if a horse can do it unridden, then all we should have to do as a rider, is be balanced in self-carriage on them, and cue them in a way that they can understand and doesn't interfere, and continue to move with them in balance as they carry out our request. It really is so simple!

Getting down on hands and knees and experimenting with how a four legged creature turns is very useful. Get someone to push down on your shoulders slightly, then ask them to lean to the inside, and try to turn. Almost impossible, unless you're going to do it by losing your balance and then crossing your outside leg over. A horse has to be able to have his inside shoulder free to pick up that inside foot and move it over slightly inside it's track, then the outside leg follows.

Getting off track..
Back to how.. We all know that horses are absolute masters at harmonic movement..mirroring. We do it in ground work. We can do it in riding as well.

Quote:
I always get a bit confused when I turn my pelvis... where to keep my shoulders and where to have my feet.

So I sort of get lost where to keep my feet, when to move what one to keep long and how to drive and... I should just go sitting on her and feel what she does when she makes a turn but how to get that turn to feel it?


I wouldn't worry at all about where to put your feet and legs at the moment for simple turns. If you are sitting upright, with heels in line with hips, balanced and your core gently activated.. breathing!.. and you turn your body as Josepha has described, into the turn, with your hands level and thumbs up, so that your hips softly turn in the direction of the turn, your legs will naturally fall where they should be, if you keep your body loose from the hips down. Then just follow the motion of your horses body as she walks or trots through the turn. When you want to go straight again, look straight and straighten your hips.
You won't need to drive, you won't need to worry about which leg to lengthen, where to push. Just make sure that your horse is moving freely forward first and just flow.

I've had the privilege of experimenting on a few people lately who've been trained here in the way that you describe Leigh. When I've taught them this, they've been amazed at how easy and graceful a turn instantly becomes when they get it right, and at how little effort it takes to sustain the horses action. Of course, that's on my horses who are used to being ridden that way. But the interesting thing is, when they go back to their regular riding stables, they find that there is an amazing difference in their school horse. Two things. The first is that the horse no longer feels like it's bracing and fighting and turns just as nicely with this method (or more so as they are far more schooled!) as my horses do, and the second is that the horse suddenly seems to come alive and notice them for the first time.. actually LIKE them even.

Some of my students have quite a lot of trouble getting this hip movement though.. They THINK they're turning their hips, but they're often DROPPING a hip, or leaning, or just turning their head and their arms in a swivel movement but leaving their pelvis behind. (This has the effect of shortening the outside rein and lengthening the inside rein, so that's when they HAVE to pull out and down and to effect the horses head.) It's one thing to TELL someone to turn their hips.. it's quite another for them to actually do it correctly.

So, a couple of visualizations that I have found helpful:

One is, imagine that you are carrying a breakfast tray, with a tall glass of orange juice, a big cup of coffee and a couple of croissants..
Your upper arms will come straight down your sides, with shoulders dropped, back and soft.
Your hands will hold the side of the tray, with your thumbs on top.
Your forearms will be parallel to each other, and horizontal, forming a ninety degree angle from your body.
You will need to lift yourself up straight from the crown of your head, so that your chin is slightly tucked, and your abdominals are engaged softly.

When you want to turn, you must KEEP THAT JUICE AND COFFEE in their cup and glass!!!!
That means that your forearms must remain parallel and level, with the thumbs on top. If you let a shoulder drop, or a hip drop, or a hand drop, the whole lot will spill!
Oh.. and you'll need to look where you're going too!!!

This is just a base.. once you can do this well, you can play around with it, and see how which variation influences what.


Sometimes that visualisation results in correct posture, but still not correct swivelling of hips....
The rider will turn with chin and then pivot arms as if on a hinge from the hips..
That's when you'll see the tightened outside rein actually preventing the horse from turning .. and the rider says.. "See! The horse just resists like this",
So then I use the second visualisation.
(This is one I stole from my snow boarding instructor many years ago and adapted.hehe)

TWo... Hold your arms in former position, thumbs up, upper arms at side with dropped shoulders, forearms parallel and level..
Then imagine you're a thalidomide kid.. You have no upper arm. Your forearms are attached directly to your hips.. and fused there, like a robot. This means that your hands cannot swing in any direction, up or down, or from side to side.
Your forearms form one solid unit with your pelvis.
Your arms and your tummy will form three sides of a square, that is going to remain square, whatever the rest of your body does.

Soo.. when you want to turn,
First, on the count of "tuuuuuuuurn", turn your head to the left..
And on the count of "Left" turn your "Sqaure Unit" of hips/forearms to the left.

When you do this correctly, holding the square shape, you'll see that it has the effect of pushing your outside hand slightly forwards and towards the horses neck, so lengthening the outside rein and giving the horse room to bend. And our inside hand will move slightly back and away from the horses neck, without altering their relative position to your pelvis.

(I teach it in two stages, turn.. left! so that the horse doesn't receive a sudden jolt from that very stiff box shape. lol. I also warn people that this will probably make them artificially stiff momentarily, and that they need to remember that this is an exercise to teach hip/hand co-ordination, not rigidity, so once they've got it, they'll have to remember to soften up and let their hands and arms move gently with their horse again, while still maintaining this base position.)

This is often a litebulb moment for people who've been a bit mentally stuck in the hips.

You should feel a nice elastic pull from your chin, (which is slightly tucked, not lifted - rounded back/engaged psoas, just like you want your horse to be) across the front of your chest from left shoulder, down through belly button and to the right hip.

If the horse doesn't respond to this cue, then I allow them to gently lift the inside rein slightly by squeezing with fingers and rotating wrist slightly out and that's usually enough to let the horse in on what's going on, and isn't needed more than a couple of times.

All of this works just the same in cordeo. I find it easier for people to learn with two hands first, because that gives them some reference for keeping straight and level. So I make the cordeo a little longer and let them hold it like reins.
Then progress to holding cordeo in two hands in the center, and only go to one handed once they are consistently able to stay level.
It also works brilliantly with "Air Reins".


Piece of Cake!

However..

All this only happens if you're already balanced and moving with the horses body, in such a way that you do not lock up in the hips and thighs as you turn them and inadvertantly block your horses movement..

So usually, before working on these visualisations for turning, I would work on moving the hips and legs in time with the gait.

For this, I use the visualisation of sitting on a slippery log in the water park.
Your legs will be wrapped softly around it, with lower leg very gently hugging the underside. As the log rolls slightly down to the left, your left hip will go down, your thigh will drop down with it, and left foot will swing further under, as your right hip and thigh lift. Then it rolls the opposite way, and your right calf muscle gently hugging the underside of the log, will be drawn down underneath.
So we'll walk along, feeling "under, under, under, under, under" as the other thigh begins to lift... so it's underrup.. underrup... underrup.

Now.. when we get to the turn.. if we stay loose and continue with this movement, we'll feel that the our outside leg seems to swing under slightly more, and our inside thigh lift and move out slightly more.. so we keep our hips swinging with this movement.

(Once again, I present this as an exaggeration which will be later refined.)

Now.. when we get around to the first visualisations I talked about, for turning..
We'll be able to keep this rocking and rolling motion going without locking our hips as we turn our hip together with upper body in the direction we want to go.
And the legs will support the turn, by just following, or even slightly leading if we're asking for a tighter turn.. but in this same rhythm, and in the natural position that they fall. So our outside leg will swing softly under more, asking our horses inside front foot at the moment of lift off to place further to the inside, and our inside thigh will be ready to lift with our horses inside shoulder as they make this movement.
But in the beginning, its' enough to just feel this and follow it, as we use our hips to allow the horse to co-ordinate with us into the turn.

Now I went and wrote even more than the first time around. Whew.. why do I do this when I'm supposed to be horrifically busy.. A bit of escapism I suppose!


Quote:
Quote:
There is no correct seat in movement, there is only correct movement and that is not static and changes with every pace, horse, rider and time frame within the education of both.
What is right depends on the laws of physics for that particular moment.


Love this!!

Sue

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 7:29 pm 
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Oh I even have to little time to read this... I will, when I have time... like in the middle of the night or something ;) But I will read and think about it.
For me right now it is quite hard to sit and work out of my pelvis since my head keeps on thinking about all that is in it when it comes to steering, would love to read more about biomechanics and all, simply I want to know how the horse moves and what muscle is contracted and what muscle is long, I seem to be searching for some 'die hard theory' (something I miss in school?) and... hmm, will search for a book and maybe when I find one I can have the peace of mind to sit and see what happens.

I feel like before I just worked out of my pelvis and saw where my legs ended up; but that right now I need to know what I do! Or what Ruphina does!

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 1:25 am 
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In general and especially after watching JP's videos a couple of times, I am a little confused about weight shifts and leg work when the horse is bended (turns, circles, shoulder-in, half-pass).

First, in the 2nd video he says she has to tip a little to the outside of horse's bend as horse's withers go to the outside and sternum to the inside. Is this true just for sideways or for turns too? It just doesn't seem logical to me to tip to the outside in circles. Till now I only heard that you should lean to the inside a little or just turn the hips as you said before. So at galloping in circle, you have to lean to the inside with horse, stay straight or lean to the outside?

Second, why it is said that you have to "work" from inner leg to outside rein? You cannot press the inner leg to the horse as this leg has to allow the ribcage to turn. On the other hand your outside leg is "heavier" and goes around horse's side and makes the bend. But then again a black hole in my understanding: if rider's inner leg has to be soft, how is than possible that this leg cues horse's inner leg to come more forward?

Everything would be so logical to me if you could make the bend in horse with your inner leg :roll:

This is it for today, then I have some questions about shoulder-in and half-pass too, but maybe they will be gone after your answers on these questions :)


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 2:57 am 
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First, in the 2nd video he says she has to tip a little to the outside of horse's bend as horse's withers go to the outside and sternum to the inside. Is this true just for sideways or for turns too?


It is true for a turn as well, if the horse is upright and collected. It is not necessarily true, say, at speed when a horse is more likely to drop the inside shoulder and "bank" into a turn. But in collected gaits, it is always true. At speed, you would not want to lean out...you would probably fly off the horse...but in a collected state you can...well, sort of....read on...

You can look at it (picture it in your mind) not so much as the withers tipping out and the sternum tipping in, but rather, the inside ribcage lifting as a result of the action of the withers and sternum. As JP mentions, you can both see it from the ground, and you can feel it happening when you sit on the horse (you can feel it even better bareback or with a bareback pad).

When asking the rider to tip outward, this is just a beginning point in order to give the rider the idea and to counter the old habit of tipping inward. Just to break the old habit. But ideally, you would not lean either way, but remain as centered as you can on the horse while lengthening your outside leg around the horse. Instead of leaning, you would instead simply soften the weight of your inside hip in order to allow the horse to comfortably lift that inside ribcage as he bends.

I am still at a point of leaning slightly...I try, rather, to just tip my head to the outside slightly..but try not to get unbalanced on the horse. Any overt leaning will disrupt the harmony of the horse's movement. So it's best really to sit centered at all times but ease off the weight of the inside hip. I say it like this, because if I don't think of it as lifting the inside hip, then I have a tendency to purposely drop my outside hip...which is also wrong and disruptive.

As for inner leg to outside rein, well...that is the standard for encouraging the horse to take the contact on the outside rein. I can tell you that it works with a bitless bridle as well, but I don't think I'm at a point in my education that I can tell you all the reasons why that might be important. In part, it is to discourage the horse from bending only the neck to the inside, and avoiding a bend in the entire body. It also encourages a horse not to pop the outside shoulder out (and thereby dropping the inside shoulder).

You CAN make the horse bend with your inside leg...but it may be that you are encouraging a bend that drops the inside shoulder by tipping the ribcage the opposite way you would want for collection. If one uses the inside leg strongly, chances are your own weight would drop to the inside, and chances are the horse would then tip the inside ribcage down and not up. Horses can do either.

JP explained it in this way. If you see a horse scratching his ear with his hind hoof, he tips the withers out and the sternum in (raising the inside ribcage). If you see a horse turning his head around to scratch his hip with his teeth, he is tipping his withers IN and his sternum OUT, and lowering the inside ribcage.

I have watched Tam scratch his ear. JP is absolutely right.

I would have to watch the series again to pick up what you are saying about the inside leg vs the outside leg of the rider. Both legs should be light, and contact on the horse should be on/off/on/off to encourage lightness. Any aid given in a steady contact would tend to dull the horse's response.

So I'm afraid I cannot answer everything, but I hope this is a wee bit helpful?

Oh yes...and this IS possible in a cordeo as well as reins, but I am primarily working in reins at this time (with my little cavesson).

:f:

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 8:51 am 
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Thank you Karen!

How funny is it that this is just the point I an in to yesterday while riding.
In the beginning JP's "lean to the outside"was wonderfull. But lately... It doesn't. Ruphina gets out of balance instead of a nice turn.
And yes, when you simply make one leg longer, and have your innerhip in a manner that her ribcage can lift up, you get the bend again.
And thank you so much for explaining why a strong inside leg does NOT work. I'm still working out how to have Ruphina move her weight to the outside front leg on a leftlead circle. She has a tendency to 'fall in to the circle' on the left lead.
And I simply said "no not to the inside", with my inside leg which made her really drop to the inside with her shoulders. Now I understand why. This understanding is really a big thing for me because otherwise I wouldn't rememer it for life, now I will thanks to you :f

I'mm gonna think about this long and wise... But this already makes so much sense to me. I have to think it through before riding Ruphina because otherwise I will be thinking to much :D

One thing someone else told me. With sideways (I was talking about legyielding and shouder in) you want your horse to put his innerhindleg more under his body. Could it be that in this movement he/she moves her ribcage on the inside ore down than in a turn? I think it is with legyielding, but then again... they don't have to be bended while legyielding so the 'moving up of the ribcage' is not there anyways...

Do you understand what I mean? would the ribcage lower again because of the stepping under the bodymass of the innerhindleg in shoulder inn (as it might do in legyielding)?

Hmm... Okay you got me fired up to think again about this all :D

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 10:18 pm 
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Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2007 3:13 pm
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Location: Slovenia
Karen thanks, your answer was very helpful! :applause:

I thought I am doing wrong if I cue for the bend with my inner leg. The question now is just if my horse's ribcage is turned in the right direction. I will try to feel it next time when ridding.

When exaggerating with weight shifts, is this right:
- in shoulder-in you tip in the way of moving (out of the bend),
- in half-pass you tip in the other direction than you are moving (ouf the bend),
- in sidepass you tip in the other direction that you are moving?

Should horse at sidepass be bended or not? As on sketches I see them straight but when I watch horses on videos/my horse, they are bended in the opposite direction of moving.


Kirsten, I also found these videos so wonderful in the begining. It was all so logical when JP said it...but putting this into practice is another story :funny: :roll:


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 10:36 pm 
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Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2007 3:13 pm
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Location: Slovenia
Aha, now I know: rider's outside leg creates the bend, inside leg creates the impulsion and outside rein creates the angle (for half-pass) :) I somehow missed that before.


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