The Art of Natural Dressage

He really does! And now that I am aware of it I can play with it a bit and feel such a difference in his ability to move under me. If I am off balance or if my legs are interfering with him, his movement is laboured and choppy...as soon as I shift myself to a place that literally gets me out of his way, the movement becomes fluid. I found it especially in the half pass. A little change in my balance makes a clear and undeniable change in his movement. I have a long way to go yet before I can feel it so clearly in other movements.

But really, it doesn't matter so much if my heel is perfectly aligned with my shoulders - I mean...the seat itself isn't so vital to the horse. It might be beneficial to the rider generally speaking, but I think that individuals who not only have different body types (actually,my body type is far too common for someone my age) but perhaps an old injury - I have an old whiplash, a twist in my spine and one shoulder is lower than the other (I'm making myself sound like Quasimodo ) but as long as I can find exactly what you describe...independent balance, then Cisco is perfectly happy and moves well. I think what I'm saying is that functionality is more important.

That's me....functional!

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"Ride reverently, as if each step is the axis on which the earth revolves"

I talked with a physical therapist about that, the difference between normal range of motion and function. For most activities 100% full range of motion is not required for full function because our body has so many ways to compensate, and so does the horses body. Watching people with serious disabilities ride has done two things for me: to be reassured that I can learn to ride well, even though my body is far from perfect (and will show more wear and tear as I age) and that I will do the best for me and my horse to keep everything functioning as well and as long as possible. My goal is to be riding that same horse when she's thirty (she's 10 now) and for both of us to still be comfortable.

Oh Danee, I only just saw this and I deeply apologise for explaining myself so poorly.
With 'now' I meant only 'now in this message of yours'.
I have never seen you teach so I can not say anything about it

@ Miriam, you point your right hip forward and your horse bends to the left?

I sat in O for a few minutes in the cold over his blanket without anything. I can't ride proper now as he is very stiff from the cold... And Jamie was there too irritating O (yiiiks), but O found it okay for a few minutes just so I could check this.

Now when I do as I explained he simply turns and quite correct, keeping weight of his inside shoulder. When I turn my pelvis, my outside leg goes backwards because my - belly to leg - line makes a larger angle and my inside leg stays long, my shoulders line up with the O's shoulders and O turns.
It only works when I have my pelvis tilted the right way though.

When I point my inside hip forwards, my outside leg also goes back, but my inside leg goes to the front a little.
Now Owen just went straight, then when I turned my upperbody into the direction I wanted to go, O indeed turned.
My pelvis sacked out to the front though and O went a bit more on to the forehand...

Argh Can't wait for Spring to come and be able to experiment with O...
And I am afraid one of my pupils is guinea pig this evening...

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www.equusuniversalis.com

great explanation!
after I read this piece, I want to get back to the riding part again

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Percella & Samantha

Then my work here is done

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www.equusuniversalis.com

Josepha this has been an amazing topic and I am very grateful for your writing it, the debate and discussion that followed and more importantly how happy it has made my horse!

Thank you for taking the time to write everything in this way....

You're welcome Julie

Mow I am wondering precisely what part of it made your horse happy

@ Miriam (and Danee),
The 'outside hip forward' still only works for me and my pupils, even when I myself make turns on the ground, I feel that my outside is the dominant factor, just like it should be for the horse in a volte.
Next time, when you are at my place Miriam and Owen or Jamie feel up to it, maybe you could get on a few moments and show my what you mean? Or I'll get on and you show me?

@ All, with this 'system' we had a horse offer piaffe 5 times, with cordeo only, in the clinic in Ijmuiden, the Netherlands last sunday.
I had given a clinic there last October and Jennifer than rode and followed this system untill last Sunday when we had a second clinic.

I saw it happening... Tom boy collected himself more and more in the cordeo.
I asked Jennifer to go to walk and then to trot, but everytime before Tom Boy fell in trot, I asked Jen to ask him to go back to walk and repeat that over and over and after several minutes he offered his very vigerous piaffe! It was wonderful!
We screamed for pure joy, told Tom Boy he was an emperor, a king! and he was so proud, so he kept going at it!
I trained 6 horses that day and it was marvellous

Can't wait to have a riding horse myself again...
Hopefully when Owen's medicin catches on, we can give it a go again...

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www.equusuniversalis.com

While it would be wonderful to come to a matching conclusion, the important part is we are all getting the desired results!

Something I've noticed is that on the ground- with no horse to anchor their pelvis- if I ask a student to turn their shoulders left, the ones that can get circles nicely turn just their shoulders left, their hips stay straight, and they swing elegantly through the torso. Those that cant get nice circles often tend to swing through the ankles and hips, keeping a straight back. Thier shoulder and hips remain parallel even though they are now angled left. Maybe the really important part is actually the twist through the torso???

What our body does and what we think it does is often very different. Maybe we are all doing very close to the same thing but by the time we feel it, translate that feel inot words, we suddenly have opposite ideas. I will say there is definitly problems if the inside hip comes too far forwards as the horse than gets stuck in a huanches in position making it difficult for the shoulders to come around.

*I think* bringing the outside hip forwards is totally fine unless you plan on doing advanced lateral movements where you need to be able to very specifically and seperately align the horse's hips, shoulders, and bend.

I also think that even when riders think "inside hip forwards" they are usually just holding the hip from going backwards. I myself will pay more attension to what is really going on as opposed to what i think I am doing

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Learning to put the relationship first.

I believe I understand what you are saying but was confused by the term "fell in trot." Can I assume you meant just before he began trotting you had the rider ask for a walk? Or did you mean after a stride or two of trot the rider asks for the walk, then asks for the trot again, this continuing, of course, until the horse produces a step or so of piaffe?

Donald

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Love is Trust, trust is All
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So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.

I have just discovered this topic.
Would like to read it in depth, so that will be for later on.
But I wanted to make sure to follow on it for certain!

I am not yet ready for the saddle, but time may come...
Thank you already for the teaching on this forum, Josepha

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Kind regards,

AnneMarie

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You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make'em drink...

Sorry for my poor explanation, Donald

Yes indeed, before the horse goes or falls into to trot, or the second he does, make your seat slower and heavyer and go back to walk, as soon as you feel the horse preparing to go back to walk, lighten your seat and make your movement a little faster and ask for trot and vise versa.
Only when the horse is strong and supple enough from following the 5 steps will he be able to change gears like that.
He will (have to) collect more and more whilst doing these 'almost' transitions and elevate untill he is on working piaffe, which means he shall be going forward slightly but that is not problem, just engage your seat, going with the movement as well as setting the example.
Stretch tall (the feeling your torso has when you stretch your arms in to the air) breath low in your belly and dance the salsa with your buttocks. You leg movement must result from that pelvis movement.
The leg squeezing that is often taught for the piaffe I would not use at this stage as it will throw horse and rider of balance because the rider's pelvis will stiffen.
Also, pull the head and it is all over. That is why the cordeo is so helpful, pulling it will not mess up

Just let the magic happen

Maybe it would be nice if you please to explain how you experience piaffe and how it happens?

Thank you!

Josepha

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This topic is exactly what I need right now. I've tried finding a "Centered Riding" instructor where I live and the one listed on the internet, she didn't return my call. but no worry, I now have the 5 step plan
I started riding Magik (let's say sitting on Magik ) with a cordeo and a hackamore. The first few times, he wouldn't even walk. He just stood there. Then a few times after, he would back up. I clicked and treated even though he didn't walk. Then the last time, he circled and stood in front of the round pen door and with his nose, removed the chain to open the door. Of course I got off.
But now, I will follow this plan and maybe I will understand more on how to sit on the horse to make it comfortable for Magik and a happy experience for him too.
Thanks Josepha and everyone for posting this.
Jocelyne

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Jocelyne
[Hug your animals everyday. You never know!

Fabulous!

How rare it is in much of the horseworld for a first backing of the green horse to go this smoothly. Made me smile and feel happy to see how he said "enough," and how you honored that. Are you putting a pad or anything between you and him when you sit on him?

Donald

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Love is Trust, trust is All
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So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.

Oh Jocelyn....WAY TO GO!!!!!!!

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"Ride reverently, as if each step is the axis on which the earth revolves"

Loving this topic.
Sylvia Loch also used humans walking and running, and crawling on all fours to make them understand how a horse may need to be free to use himself.
Sally Swift did so much to help horses have better, less interfering pasengers.

You make it sound so simple, and it is, except humans like to complicate and mess up.

I was very lucky to spend a day with a young trainer named Adam Shereston, who would like horses to be ridden either at liberty or with a cordeo. Adam says it is not good to use the leg to push, squeeze or kick the horse, and my pony Ben took 8 seconds or less to understand that by taking the leg away he had free space to move into or to turn. Similarly, with a cordeo, without pulling against the neck, just take the rope away from the neck and the horse turns.
Adam keeps all his cues to a quiet whisper. When teaching a horse to lead, there is never a tug, never a pull and always a loop in the rope attached.
I am not sure if Adam has seen Josepha work, I have sent him this website address, and he was thrilled to hear that there were people trying to aim for "less is more" and freedom for the horse.
My own horses do accept to wear their saddles, have their girths tightened, allow a halter to be put on, but I get on them for the first time without an arena or fencing, in an open field, with their friends away or, in Danny's case with his wife and daughter grazing at the bottom of the hill away from us, in freedom and in trust.
They could run, buck, panic, but I cannot pull or inflict pressure, they are only going to react to my weight and movement, it cannot be tack related, since they have no tack on the first few times I become their passenger.

Josepha, I know you will visit the USA, but have you done any more about your UK clinics?
I am hoping Adam can come and teach a four or five day clinic next May or June, he has only 4 people with horses attend a clinic and 2 spaces are already booked, but an open amount of people without horses spectating.
We have no facilities, no arena, no mains water, no toilets, no electric, but we can camp or caravan and use portaloos.
Jospeha, you sound like a five star hotel lady, there is a bed and breakfast near to us and a larger hotel, I wonder if it might be possible to run simultaneously, so that handling, training, riding skills are shared and especially discussed with bottles of wine around a camp fire?

I should so love to learn from you, one cannot correct oneself without experienced eyes on the ground and habits are so easily aquired and less easily remedied. My racing cross country and jumping days are behind me, and dressage was never my strong point, I can only get better.
Love Susie xx

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Susie xx
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