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 Post subject: Hello from Polen :)
PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 3:11 pm 

Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2015 3:22 pm
Posts: 43
Hello,
I'm Ania, 32 years old, I'm from Polen and I have two greatest mares- Pagoda (mother) ans Princess (Pagoda's daughter).
I have contact with horses from 23 years, and with Pagoda- from 11 years, with Princess- by 8 years. The true way to contact and real relationship with my horses I'm looking for from I met Pagoda. I fell in love with her at first sight. Now I know why it was- because I saw at her my reflected. We were the same and the same lost. And we didn't want to comply with the current systems.
5 years we spend on Nevzorov, but I do not remember it as a good thing, but rather as something that is strange, scary and sad, I remember it like beautiful illusion, which turned into a tragic nightmare for me.
I'm still with true freedom, I want my horses to be free emotionally and have in a powerful spirit.
My biggest dream is take my horses to walk- without fances. Following Nevzorov's philosophy it is impossible. And I do not want my horses have spent a life sentence in a pasture, without knowing a lake, river and forest. Because who am I to forbid this them? Who am I to close them between the fences and do experiments about this how much my horses are able to learn Latin and color discrimination? And after some time say that all this is unnecessary. That horses are designed in order to be free. Then continue to hold them in confinement without the possibility of output from pasture and stopping what they liked the most. This is unethical. I am a Christian and I thank God and Jesus that helped me to see the truth.
Before I introduce here, I spend a lot of time to read Your forum and I like it, really :) Wonderful place :)
Sorry about my my bad english ;)
Best regards,
Ania


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 Post subject: Re: Hello from Polen :)
PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 3:40 pm 
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Welcome, Ania! :)

Nice that you have found us - your English is perfectly understandable and I am looking forward to reading more about you and your horses.

Great to read that you have found out what you want your interaction with your horses to be like. I have to say, however, that in this forum we tend to not believe that there is such a thing as "the truth". Instead, we focus on what we can learn from all our members' unique experiences. :f:

I hope you will enjoy the forum and if there are any questions, feel free to ask them! :smile:

Best wishes,
Romy


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 Post subject: Re: Hello from Polen :)
PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 4:06 pm 
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Welcome, Ania! :f:

I'm looking forward to reading more about your mares (and see some pictures, if you want to share ;)).

Wind of change wrote:
My biggest dream is take my horses to walk- without fances.
I totally understand that dream. It is among the nicest things for me, to walk with a horse, as freely as possible. You should check out Romy's diary, pictures and videos. She does such wonderful free walks with her horses... (she also has the perfect landscape for such things, I have to add most enviously ;))

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 Post subject: Re: Hello from Polen :)
PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 10:12 pm 

Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2015 3:22 pm
Posts: 43
Thank You for the warm welcome! :)

Quote:
Great to read that you have found out what you want your interaction with your horses to be like. I have to say, however, that in this forum we tend to not believe that there is such a thing as "the truth". Instead, we focus on what we can learn from all our members' unique experiences. :f:

And this is excellent- really I like it and I join to this. Is the best way to share together with experience, each person is different, every horse is different, everyone has a different personality, experience and past, likes other things- a man and a horse :)
I wrote about the road to truth in the context that I realized that keeping horses in isolation and doing different things with them is a dead end, and the truth is that I have to go with my horses out of the pasture, show them the many wonderful things. I can't deprive them of the possibility of running in the meadows, sniffing flowers and forest air breathing. But the problem is that I can not keep my horses with me. I don't know what to do. Near us is stable, my horses always leave me and run there. I would not mind, but to go there, my horses have run by 2 streets with fast cars. The truth is that I could take my horses to walk only when at any time, I will have control of them. I do not want to use force and violence. With all my heart I believe that there are other ways and I want to find them. I do not have a rest until I will find a way.

Quote:
I totally understand that dream. It is among the nicest things for me, to walk with a horse, as freely as possible. You should check out Romy's diary, pictures and videos. She does such wonderful free walks with her horses... (she also has the perfect landscape for such things, I have to add most enviously ;))

The nicest things for You- I'm happy! :)
And Yes, with pleasure I will look at Romy's diary :)


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 Post subject: Re: Hello from Polen :)
PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 10:13 pm 

Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2015 3:22 pm
Posts: 43
Pagoda:

Image

Image

Princess:

Image

Image

:sun:


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 Post subject: Re: Hello from Polen :)
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2015 3:06 am 

Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2015 3:22 pm
Posts: 43
More about us :)

Pagoda
She is very variable horse. In one second she can change her attitude. She is like a silent water that suddenly can crush the hardest rock, it is difficult to predict the moment of change. She is afraid of the unknown things, more is fear in her than curiosity. New things I need to show her with great sensitivity (perchaps spray for mosquitoes). She is very vocal horse, sometimes, when she is full of fun she can stomp her feet and make a noise, it's very funny to watch ;)
She is ok with doing one thing by long time. She likes sideways (of course with delights), wild game, work on naturall colection in trot (her favourite game), spanish walk, shapp, ball game, back to the hand (her favourite game too)- every exercise from the ground. This make that Pagoda is full of energy, and very very playfull, She goes to this very emotionally :yeah: She love scratching the belly, especially when is summer- she comes to me and asks me about scratching by lift her back leg and referral her nose towards her belly. She love stroke her croup and hinds legs and calm tone of voice.
She dosn't like- cleaning back by brush, willingness to help in the task (she says to me: shut up- I know how do this, but I need time to think.....), when Princess distracting her attention during exercises. I didn't notice that something could be boring for her.

Princess
She is like tiger from Winnie Pooh :bounce: :cheers: :cheer:
She loves chase the tiger and pedastal and ball game- she can do this all the time, sometimes I am so tired but she wants to more and more and more!
But about other things I can ask her no more than few times and she get bored and then frustrated. She is very interesting in new things and she is a horse, in which curiosity is stronger than fear. She is very very smart and she can come up with different things to get what she wants. I am surprised very often. She learns at a rappid pace provided that wehave short sessions and then must be her favourite games. She has pleasure with games only when I am happy, and when she did something good I need to clap my hands and even shout joyful voice that she is the best girl in the world, that she did it excellent! And really I can't deceive her, she know when I am honest. So I need to ask her about things that I know that she will and even if it is of a completely new things. She is disappointed when she does not feel my joy. But when I am pround of her, her eyes shine and she is very very happy!


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 Post subject: Re: Hello from Polen :)
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2015 3:11 am 
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I can't wait to hear more from you guys! Princess and Pagoda are so beautiful. :f:


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 Post subject: Re: Hello from Polen :)
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2015 8:44 am 

Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2013 11:22 am
Posts: 211
Your descriptions of your horses are great. I really like that all horses are so different, and everyone needs a different approach. I also love that princess needs your honest joy, I can relate to that very much.

Welcome here, I hope you have many interesting reads and discussions :f:


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 Post subject: Re: Hello from Polen :)
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2015 1:36 pm 
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Your horses look lovely!
And the way you describe their characters make them very much alive before my eyes. Isn't it great to have more than one horse and such different ones? I like that about ours. Although it can be also challenging at times to adjust to their special ways :)

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 Post subject: Re: Hello from Polen :)
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2015 10:45 pm 

Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2015 3:22 pm
Posts: 43
Thank You all for inscription in my diary :)

Quote:
I can't wait to hear more from you guys! Princess and Pagoda are so beautiful.

Thank You, I think that I have a lot to say....but I have to think where to start ;)

Quote:
Your descriptions of your horses are great. I really like that all horses are so different, and everyone needs a different approach. I also love that princess needs your honest joy, I can relate to that very much.

Thank You and yes- Princess needs my honest joy, but it isn't so easy, because when she do something wrong or she misunderstands, or she just wants to oppose me because she is very dominant horse I have to react, and say her, that she don't understand, or that I do not want this behavior in my presence and then she is angry and starting to show me that it should be as she wants, no matter what I think....This is very rude. Our relationship shouldn't look like we do only what Princess wants. It was that for several years. I was taugh, that I should let her to show me what she needs, what she thinks, what she feels, and I was taugh that I shouldn't forbid her to express herself, because I hurt her pride and then she will close her heart and I will kill her spirit. I belived in it strongly by few years.
Today I know that I did wrong, very wrong and today I know that my Princess wasn't happy of that and still she isn't happy when I give her opportunity to domination me. I need to change this. And this is very difficult for me, because I am not shure if I am emotionally readdy for this. I love my horses very much and I know that I have to change myself for them, for that they could feel safe with me.
Quote:
Your horses look lovely!
And the way you describe their characters make them very much alive before my eyes. Isn't it great to have more than one horse and such different ones? I like that about ours. Although it can be also challenging at times to adjust to their special ways :)

Thank You- my horses spend all the time at the pasture, they have open shelter, they eat a lot of hay and very little oats ;)
Yes, this is beautiful that all animals were created with different personalities. And this is beautiful that we can create special ways to comucications or to do diffrent things with them, by all life I will be learn from them what they like, what they wants, etc, sometimes maybe they can change their minds and will like something else. This is grate that they are so diffrent!
Except that, I think that there are a lot of features common to all horses, the things that must be provided to the horse feel safe and happy with us. I am convinced that the horse needs a leader (every horse). If there is no leader, the responsibility falls on the horse, and then there is a whole range of behaviors associated with the position of dominantly in horses, emotions such as fear are associated with this. This is normal and there is no exceptions. Every dominant mare in the herd must be very vigilant, and this is a big responsibility. This makes she will be never felt as safe as other horses which involving at her. I want to take this responsibility off my horses.

Regards,
Ania


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 Post subject: Re: Hello from Polen :)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 10:23 am 
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Welcome Ania :) !

I really like the pictures of your horses and what you tell about them and am looking forward to hearing more from you! Maybe you'd like to start your own diary in the Daily Training section.

Wind of change wrote:
Except that, I think that there are a lot of features common to all horses, the things that must be provided to the horse feel safe and happy with us. I am convinced that the horse needs a leader (every horse). If there is no leader, the responsibility falls on the horse, and then there is a whole range of behaviors associated with the position of dominantly in horses, emotions such as fear are associated with this.


Maybe this threads are interesting for you: Being a leader, Leadership and its role in horse-human relationships.

I agree with you that there are needs most horses have in common, for example that they need other horses around. But in reference to the horse-human relationship I don't believe that i is this easy and everytime the same. Instead I think that every being, horse and human, is too different to be able to do things in the same way. For me it is important too that the horse feels safe with me. But I think that there are many ways that lead to this goal. One of them is being a leader, another one is encouraging the horse to become brave, another one is to show the horse that I'll protect it, another one is to be with the horse only when other horses are around and so on. I want to find the pieces that work best for me and the horse, so I don't have the goal "become a leader" but "find out what makes the horse feel safe".

Quote:
Every dominant mare in the herd must be very vigilant, and this is a big responsibility. This makes she will be never felt as safe as other horses which involving at her. I want to take this responsibility off my horses.

In the most herds I observed until now I saw all the horses have a rest every now and then. Who is awake and aware of the possible predators is changing. There isn't one horse that has all the responsibility the whole time. I can't believe that this would be very useful to protect a whole herd. Instead is is more secure if the horses that are most alert are watching out so that the others can rest. And when the others are alert again they can watch out. ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Hello from Polen :)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 11:17 am 
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Anni wrote:
Who is awake and aware of the possible predators is changing. There isn't one horse that has all the responsibility the whole time.
In my observations (of domesticated "herds", of course), I found that who is more vigilant than others is rather dependent on character traits than rank.
I think all horses are more or less vigilant all of the time, according to the situation, environment, weather and so on. The reaction to stimuli they receive can vary greatly though - again according to individual traits and learning history.
I further believe that the responsibility to the well-being of the herd is a shared one. That's the special nature of the herd.

Lead horses, which in natural habitat are usual the parents and thus the horses with more experience, are looked upon in times of crisis (danger from the environment, predators, scarcity of resources, ...). Otherwise they act just like parents do in a human family.
In a domesticated group of horses where family relations are rare, I mainly observed friendships and a certain kind of rank established through isolated events of domination over resources. But that's very different to something I would call "leadership".
Again, in times of crisis, even the domesticated group will look to the most fitting "leader" to resolve the situation. But that doesn't make that indivifdual a "lead horse" in my view.

It's a very interesting topic for sure - and bringing a human (a member of a totally different species, mind you) into the equation makes things much more complicated still :)

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 Post subject: Re: Hello from Polen :)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 2:01 pm 
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Welcome to this forum Ania. :f:
What beautiful mares you have...

You wrote:

Quote:
Except that, I think that there are a lot of features common to all horses, the things that must be provided to the horse feel safe and happy with us. I am convinced that the horse needs a leader (every horse). If there is no leader, the responsibility falls on the horse, and then there is a whole range of behaviors associated with the position of dominantly in horses, emotions such as fear are associated with this. This is normal and there is no exceptions. Every dominant mare in the herd must be very vigilant, and this is a big responsibility. This makes she will be never felt as safe as other horses which involving at her. I want to take this responsibility off my horses.


I see that completely different. My horse is up til now nearly always the leader of the herd. He is a very responsible horse. He is for example the one, that cares for every member of his herd. For example, if two have a fight, he interferes if he thinks it is needed, if the herd is seperated for any reason, he tries to stay between both parts and can t relax until everyone is together again. If something strange is going on in our valley, he is the one, that observes the potential danger and doesn t get the eyes off the dangerous object, sometimes, he even sends the other horses away from the danger. In the rest of the time, he is an average member of the herd, sleeping, eating, drinking, shitting, like all the others (the only difference is, that he can send the others away, if he wants to go somewhere.). Just in those kind of special moments, he feels more responsible for the whole herd than others. I don t think, this is tiring for him. No it even seems to be his passion and vocation. It definetely is his nature.

I don t want to take away his sense of responsibility, when he is with me. Why should I? It is part of his nature and a very nice part, I think. I rather think, when I am interacting with him, that I am responsible for my own actions and decisions, as he is for his and both of us are responsible for our joint actions. Since I respect him as a responsible being, he also loves to interact with me and he really does assume responsibility. Indeed both of us seem to also assume responsibility for the two of us sometimes. I do mainly, when we are in the "human" world, he, when I am in his equine world (for example moving in the middle of the herd).

My gelding never felt save with me in the times, when I thought like you, that I have to take over responsibility. He tried to run away from me and did fight against me. Since I changed, we became a team.
So I don t think, that what you wrote is generally right.

And also imagining, that someone would say about me : "I am convinced that Dani needs a leader. If there is no leader, the responsibility falls on Dani, and then there is a whole range of behaviors associated with the position of dominantly in Dani, emotions such as fear are associated with this.", I wouldn t like to be with this person... I also love to be responsible for all I am myself, also for my fears.

Greetings from Dani


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 Post subject: Re: Hello from Polen :)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 3:42 pm 

Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2015 3:22 pm
Posts: 43
Thank You all for Your opinions :) You led me to think and to further discussion ;)
Yogini,
Quote:
My gelding never felt save with me in the times, when I thought like you, that I have to take over responsibility. He tried to run away from me and did fight against me. Since I changed, we became a team.

I understand, by few years my Princess bit me, kicked and chased and by long time I could not understand why, but today I know why it was and I can have "safe" relations with her, because I learned listen to her and read her, even the smallest muscle contraction, I insruccy my intuition. I know what do and what not to do to be safe and Princess follow me. It's not problem take Princess and go for a walk, she will go with me, because she has large curiosity and I know what to do if she could stay with me, but thid is Princess very dominant horse. This horse is the bos of the pasture, and her mother- Pagoda has to listen to her. But this is illusion! This is something that has been created in artificial conditions. When I open pasture, then in one second Pagoda is boss, Pagoda shows where to run, and Princess run after her everywhere, Pagoda decides when eat grass, where and how long. And this is reality. How much it can take illusions watching the horses in captivity.
So a way that works for Princess that she was with me in the open area, never check for Pagoda which on the pasture is very polite and seem to be "obedient" and accepting my decisions horse.

Quote:
I don t want to take away his sense of responsibility, when he is with me. Why should I? It is part of his nature and a very nice part, I think. I rather think, when I am interacting with him, that I am responsible for my own actions and decisions, as he is for his and both of us are responsible for our joint actions. Since I respect him as a responsible being, he also loves to interact with me and he really does assume responsibility.

I have a question for You, please explain me if You walk with your horse on open area and Your horse will decided that You both should go there where is danger place, perchaps the street? You will follow him, because he is right and at this moment the responsibility of direction of Your travel upon at him? Or You will ask him to go in diffrent direction and in the same way You will take off the responsibility of direction your walk from him? And what will be if he is shure, thet You should go there where he wants to go? How You explain for horse that he is not always right and why he should accept your decisions?

Dear Volcer,
Quote:
In my observations (of domesticated "herds", of course), I found that who is more vigilant than others is rather dependent on character traits than rank. I think all horses are more or less vigilant all of the time, according to the situation, environment, weather and so on. The reaction to stimuli they receive can vary greatly though - again according to individual traits and learning history.
I further believe that the responsibility to the well-being of the herd is a shared one. That's the special nature of the herd.

Yes, I agree with You, but on open area I see that there are rules and hierarchy. A guide to the herd has an innate characteristic. Only then the herd can operate smoothly. Anarchy would lead to confusion and could be fatal for the whole herd.
Diffrent dominance games, perchaps chase the tiger develop these dominance qualities in a horse. I think they are grate, but not everyone can do it, at firts should be rules (for me). My dream is to go with my horses for walk, on open area and without rules (with Pagoda) this is impossible.

Quote:
Lead horses, which in natural habitat are usual the parents and thus the horses with more experience, are looked upon in times of crisis (danger from the environment, predators, scarcity of resources, ...). Otherwise they act just like parents do in a human family.
In a domesticated group of horses where family relations are rare, I mainly observed friendships and a certain kind of rank established through isolated events of domination over resources. But that's very different to something I would call "leadership".
Again, in times of crisis, even the domesticated group will look to the most fitting "leader" to resolve the situation. But that doesn't make that indivifdual a "lead horse" in my view.

Yes- I agree with You :) But this is on the patrure, where horse know the terrain, know the environment, doesn't need to looking for food, there are no predators. But when this "dominance" horse will be in a totally new environment, perchaps with me (I am talking about my Pagoda), she will take responsibility for her life on herself, because why she should stay with me and feel safe? I hadn't the opportunity to show her that she can rely on me, because all the fun and games were always made in the pasture. And the situation when we are outside the pasture, in the new environment is new for her. And at her case there is not about fear, but about is real domination :)
Quote:
It's a very interesting topic for sure - and bringing a human (a member of a totally different species, mind you) into the equation makes things much more complicated still :)

oh yes :funny:

Dear Anni,
Quote:
I really like the pictures of your horses and what you tell about them and am looking forward to hearing more from you! Maybe you'd like to start your own diary in the Daily Training section.

Thank You and yes- I think that I should start at Daily Training section ;)

Quote:
Maybe this threads are interesting for you: Being a leader, Leadership and its role in horse-human relationships.

Thanks- I will :)

Quote:
I agree with you that there are needs most horses have in common, for example that they need other horses around. But in reference to the horse-human relationship I don't believe that i is this easy and everytime the same. Instead I think that every being, horse and human, is too different to be able to do things in the same way. For me it is important too that the horse feels safe with me. But I think that there are many ways that lead to this goal. One of them is being a leader, another one is encouraging the horse to become brave, another one is to show the horse that I'll protect it, another one is to be with the horse only when other horses are around and so on. I want to find the pieces that work best for me and the horse, so I don't have the goal "become a leader" but "find out what makes the horse feel safe".

Yes, yes, yes, yes!! I agree in 100 % with You, than you :f:

Quote:
In the most herds I observed until now I saw all the horses have a rest every now and then. Who is awake and aware of the possible predators is changing. There isn't one horse that has all the responsibility the whole time. I can't believe that this would be very useful to protect a whole herd. Instead is is more secure if the horses that are most alert are watching out so that the others can rest. And when the others are alert again they can watch out. ;)

Here is something real, I will think about this :)


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 Post subject: Re: Hello from Polen :)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 4:57 pm 
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Wind of change wrote:
Yes, I agree with You, but on open area I see that there are rules and hierarchy. A guide to the herd has an innate characteristic. Only then the herd can operate smoothly. Anarchy would lead to confusion and could be fatal for the whole herd.
That's interesting, because when I watch our herd on the open pasture, I see the exact opposite happening ;). While of course there are rules and hierarchy among the horses, I very rarely see that horses use those things in a situation like that. While grazing, it's very rare for a horse to chase another from their spot, for example.

I have to admit that I actually do see a herd of horses rather on the anarchy side than as a controlled group under the guard of a lead horse. I tend to see them more as a bunch of self-organising individuals - actually not so much different than a band of humans if you look closely at the group dynamics. There will be dominant behaviour, even individuals who try to control others to some degree, but that's not the constituent factor that makes a group work. It's rather co-operation.

But your point of interest was more the horse-human relation in certain situations.

Wind of change wrote:
But this is on the patrure, where horse know the terrain, know the environment, doesn't need to looking for food, there are no predators. But when this "dominance" horse will be in a totally new environment, perchaps with me (I am talking about my Pagoda), she will take responsibility for her life on herself, because why she should stay with me and feel safe? I hadn't the opportunity to show her that she can rely on me, because all the fun and games were always made in the pasture. And the situation when we are outside the pasture, in the new environment is new for her. And at her case there is not about fear, but about is real domination
Well first of all, I'd like to explain what I understand as "dominance". That would be "exerting control over a resource", like food, mating partners and so forth.
I don't see horses using dominance towards humans. There's a simple test: release the horse and see what he does. Is he chasing you, driving you from one spot to another? Then he is dominant. I never encountered that...
True, there are horses which attack humans, but that is usually self defence and it doesn't happen in a liberty situation.

So in my point of view what is often regarding as dominance is simply the fact that a horse doesn't comply with the human's suggestions. Which is a completely different thing.
When I'm in a new, potentially frightening situation with my gelding, he often gets nervous and tries to get away. We had ample situations where he would seriously question my intelligence, because I still insisted on keeping him close to the danger on a short lead rope. But that doesn't make him dominating me.
I believe that would a predator attack a band of horses in the wild, each one would try to get away as quickly as possible. They would not look to the lead horse for instructions first, but instinctively follow whoever reacted first. They would of course stick together, because that increases their chance of survival.

I share your concern about staying in control in a potentially dangerous situation (like traffic for example), if that is what you meant. But staying in control is not necessarily achieved by limiting the horses' options, but by contrarily giving him new ones to act upon... :f:

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