Thank You all for Your opinions
You led me to think and to further discussion
My gelding never felt save with me in the times, when I thought like you, that I have to take over responsibility. He tried to run away from me and did fight against me. Since I changed, we became a team.
I understand, by few years my Princess bit me, kicked and chased and by long time I could not understand why, but today I know why it was and I can have "safe" relations with her, because I learned listen to her and read her, even the smallest muscle contraction, I insruccy my intuition. I know what do and what not to do to be safe and Princess follow me. It's not problem take Princess and go for a walk, she will go with me, because she has large curiosity and I know what to do if she could stay with me, but thid is Princess very dominant horse. This horse is the bos of the pasture, and her mother- Pagoda has to listen to her. But this is illusion! This is something that has been created in artificial conditions. When I open pasture, then in one second Pagoda is boss, Pagoda shows where to run, and Princess run after her everywhere, Pagoda decides when eat grass, where and how long. And this is reality. How much it can take illusions watching the horses in captivity.
So a way that works for Princess that she was with me in the open area, never check for Pagoda which on the pasture is very polite and seem to be "obedient" and accepting my decisions horse.
I don t want to take away his sense of responsibility, when he is with me. Why should I? It is part of his nature and a very nice part, I think. I rather think, when I am interacting with him, that I am responsible for my own actions and decisions, as he is for his and both of us are responsible for our joint actions. Since I respect him as a responsible being, he also loves to interact with me and he really does assume responsibility.
I have a question for You, please explain me if You walk with your horse on open area and Your horse will decided that You both should go there where is danger place, perchaps the street? You will follow him, because he is right and at this moment the responsibility of direction of Your travel upon at him? Or You will ask him to go in diffrent direction and in the same way You will take off the responsibility of direction your walk from him? And what will be if he is shure, thet You should go there where he wants to go? How You explain for horse that he is not always right and why he should accept your decisions?
In my observations (of domesticated "herds", of course), I found that who is more vigilant than others is rather dependent on character traits than rank. I think all horses are more or less vigilant all of the time, according to the situation, environment, weather and so on. The reaction to stimuli they receive can vary greatly though - again according to individual traits and learning history.
I further believe that the responsibility to the well-being of the herd is a shared one. That's the special nature of the herd.
Yes, I agree with You, but on open area I see that there are rules and hierarchy. A guide to the herd has an innate characteristic. Only then the herd can operate smoothly. Anarchy would lead to confusion and could be fatal for the whole herd.
Diffrent dominance games, perchaps chase the tiger develop these dominance qualities in a horse. I think they are grate, but not everyone can do it, at firts should be rules (for me). My dream is to go with my horses for walk, on open area and without rules (with Pagoda) this is impossible.
Lead horses, which in natural habitat are usual the parents and thus the horses with more experience, are looked upon in times of crisis (danger from the environment, predators, scarcity of resources, ...). Otherwise they act just like parents do in a human family.
In a domesticated group of horses where family relations are rare, I mainly observed friendships and a certain kind of rank established through isolated events of domination over resources. But that's very different to something I would call "leadership".
Again, in times of crisis, even the domesticated group will look to the most fitting "leader" to resolve the situation. But that doesn't make that indivifdual a "lead horse" in my view.
Yes- I agree with You
But this is on the patrure, where horse know the terrain, know the environment, doesn't need to looking for food, there are no predators. But when this "dominance" horse will be in a totally new environment, perchaps with me (I am talking about my Pagoda), she will take responsibility for her life on herself, because why she should stay with me and feel safe? I hadn't the opportunity to show her that she can rely on me, because all the fun and games were always made in the pasture. And the situation when we are outside the pasture, in the new environment is new for her. And at her case there is not about fear, but about is real domination
It's a very interesting topic for sure - and bringing a human (a member of a totally different species, mind you) into the equation makes things much more complicated still
I really like the pictures of your horses and what you tell about them and am looking forward to hearing more from you! Maybe you'd like to start your own diary in the Daily Training section.
Thank You and yes- I think that I should start at Daily Training section
Maybe this threads are interesting for you: Being a leader, Leadership and its role in horse-human relationships.
Thanks- I will
I agree with you that there are needs most horses have in common, for example that they need other horses around. But in reference to the horse-human relationship I don't believe that i is this easy and everytime the same. Instead I think that every being, horse and human, is too different to be able to do things in the same way. For me it is important too that the horse feels safe with me. But I think that there are many ways that lead to this goal. One of them is being a leader, another one is encouraging the horse to become brave, another one is to show the horse that I'll protect it, another one is to be with the horse only when other horses are around and so on. I want to find the pieces that work best for me and the horse, so I don't have the goal "become a leader" but "find out what makes the horse feel safe".
Yes, yes, yes, yes!! I agree in 100 % with You, than you
In the most herds I observed until now I saw all the horses have a rest every now and then. Who is awake and aware of the possible predators is changing. There isn't one horse that has all the responsibility the whole time. I can't believe that this would be very useful to protect a whole herd. Instead is is more secure if the horses that are most alert are watching out so that the others can rest. And when the others are alert again they can watch out.
Here is something real, I will think about this