The Art of Natural Dressage

Hello All,
I'm new to this forum, and it's a daunting change for me -- the idea of depending less (or perhaps not at all) on professional trainers in my quest for creating a partnership with my horse.

I fell in love with dressage many years ago, as a new student at a dressage barn owned and run by an Olympic dressage competitor. I was taking my first ever riding lessons and I was awed by the Grand Prix riders and their horses that I saw there. I knew then that I would spend the rest of my life trying to achieve what I saw. At the same time, I knew that there was some serious money involved, and I knew that I would never be able to spend the kind of money it takes to get a horse to FEI levels.

Nonetheless, I wanted to try. My first dressage prospect -- an OTTB, 4 years old, 16hh (dressage horses all had to be tall, right? otherwise you were wasting your time, right?). I was still a fairly green rider, but making progress with regular lessons. The horse was near-sighted and spooked at everything, and then bolted. It made for an interesting ride. I still have some pictures of myself on him, with my stirrup leathers impossibly long, so long that I could barely reach the irons. I thought it would improve my seat. It didn't .The horse went blind at the age of 12 years old, and I accomplished very little in the way of partnership with him. Not for lack of trying, but for lack of knowledge. He had a forever home with me, regardless.

Next up was a lovely bay Arabian stallion, a grandson of Bey el Bey,15.3hh, bred and raised on my farm in Virginia. I had no professional help with training, and though I managed to accomplish walk, trot, and canter, I can't say we were partners, although he also had a forever home with me.

Fast forward to 12 years ago. I bred a large QH snowflake Appaloosa mare to the Arabian stallion above, and got a beautiful red bay filly with a lacy blanket. She has her father's good looks and sweet nature (mostly...). I found a dressage stable about an hour away and I've been doing haul-in lessons. But of late, I've started to feel that the conversation is all one-way...me speaking a language she can't understand, and by now, probably doesn't want to.

I happened on the Nevzorov videos on the web and they took my breath away! There, at last, was what I have wanted to do for my entire life. I tried to scrounge up anything I could find on the web about Nevzorov. I wanted to become a pupil...I wanted to learn how he had accomplished this and spend the rest of my life trying to learn it and do it. I found the NHE forum, but there was no information on how to do what he had done. No books, no instructors, no clinics -- I couldn't find a thing. The more I searched, the more I found that this information wasn't available (except perhaps to what is referred to as "the inner circle"). So I had about given up on it.

I'm sorry I didn't find this website five years ago, but at least, I'm glad to have found it now. I want to make a late change to a different school of thought and see what I can accomplish. I'm hoping for lots help. Thanks for reading this lengthy introduction.

Welcome!

Thanks for your introduction. I like them lengthy and honest, so many thanks for that .

I actually believe that professional trainers can be more in the way of finding an relationship with a horse than teaching me about it. I haven't met that many, but they all had very specific goals in mind and even if they were about the relationship as they claimed (e.g. horsemanship groundwork), it had little to do with where I was standing currently with my horse, or the view I have on those things in general.
It is a rare thing to have a trainer, who really sees what I bring into the lesson and then works with that. So in the end I believe that relationship is something I can learn about and there sure are some handy exercises and stuff, but creating a relationship and maintaining it is something so closely tied to myself, that only I can do it. The best teachers if you want are those few living examples you can find around you, if your lucky .

_________________
Volker

The horse owes us nothing.

Welcome!

I hope you will enjoy the forum and I am looking forward to reading more about you and your horses. By the way, do you want to tell us your name? It's a bit funny to say "LateChanges" when talking to you.

Concerning trainers, I completely agree with Volker, and I cannot even imagine having someone work with me and the horses who tells me what to do, because for me that has to emerge from the interaction with the horse itself. I feel like I always know what I must do (which does not mean that this is the "right thing" in any way, just what feels right for me at that moment), and then I must do it and watch the horse's feedbak, adjust my action, watch, and so on. I would not want anyone to get in between that. Therefore, I prefer to watch others or listen or read about what they have to say, and then only take out the the things that seem useful for my own interaction with my horses.



Indeed, and I wonder how these trainers - if they exist, I haven't met one yet - can possibly do this. I am everything but a trainer, but if I am working with someone, I cannot do it. Well, perhaps when it's just about preferences (e.g. someone preferring his horse to be less wild than I do), but certainly not when the thing the student wants is incompatible with my philosophy of interacting with horses (e.g. if he wants me to teach him how to get his horse to be obedient). For me it's really that black and white: I only teach what I could do with my own horses as well without feeling bad about it. Not very helpful, but I could not do it in any other way - but then perhaps that's also why I will never be a trainer.

Best wishes,
Romy

Hello Romy and Volker,
Thank you both for your responses.
This morning was my first attempt to convince two of my horses that, without doubt, I am the most fascinating creature in the entire universe. I can't tell you how strange this felt. I used the 20 meter round pen, and walked, danced, sang, slapped my leather gloves on my head, and all manor of crazy doings to get my horses' attention. Nikolai (Arabian, stallion, 13yrs) got the picture about half way through the session. I got a phone call, and while I answered it, with my back to him, he came up and nudged me to continue playing the game (I was using food rewards -- don't know if I was supposed to or not)

Lacy, (half Arab, mare, 12yrs) was more interested in the grass. Even though she's highly motivated by snacks, the treats I offered didn't hold any interest for her at all. Next time, I'll try a small paddock that doesn't have good grass. In the meantime, I continue to read the exercises described in this forum. Are there any specific topics or posts in this forum that you would recommend for me?

And out of curiosity, can you tell me how the transition is made from ground exercises to being in the saddle? I know I'm probably skipping ahead, but I'm curious as to how its done.

Thanks,
Nan Goldberg
LateChanges

Hey Nan, we have a sticky on Different ways of starting to interact with your horse, perhaps this will give you some ideas. But actually it all depends on what you and your horses are interested in or need to learn. If you have an idea what that might be, I can direct you to threads where this has been discussed.

Thank you, Romy
Today was day 2 of trying to get my horses to find me interesting. I'd say the results were mixed. They show some intermittent interest in me, then immediately go back to eating grass...maybe this is to be expected? Today, I did find that both were able to do a huge step sideways, moving the inside hind leg well under the body, with the merest touch of my hand, so that was promising.

If you would, would you direct me to a location, here in the forum, that explains (and better yet has videos) of how to start my horse. If there are any videos that show a newcomer starting a horse that has already had traditional training that would be helpful. I understand that there is no "cookbook approach" to this training, but I feel a bit lost, not knowing what to do next. Thanks!!

Also, at this point, my posts probably should be made somewhere other than the "take the time to introduce yourself" topic. So please let me know where it would be appropriate to start posting such beginner questions. Thanks again!

There really is no such thing as "the correct way to start", which is why we have that topic about different ways of starting that I linked to in my last post. For example, when I am working with a new horse (no matter if he has been traditionally trained or not), I never do that "trying to make myself interesting" thing. Instead, I simply make sure I am available to the horse, and as soon as he comes checking me out, I give a reward and then suggest to do a tiny joint movement (Encouraging politeness, which really isn't just about politeness but about establishing a language together). I am building all of our interaction from that, because if my horse watches out for my body language, I can ask for all kinds of moves in this way. But that is just me, others may start with just spending time together, playing wild games, or directly with learning an exercise together so that the horse has a reliable way of offering something and then getting rewarded for that.



An example for a "newcomer with traditionally trained horse" video for what I have just described is be this: Lena and Pan, paying attention to body language. It's not their first session, but it was in their early days of learning to communicate.



You could either start a diary in the Daily Training section, or have a look at the threads in the Practice: Groundwork Exercises section, read the threads on the topics you are interested in, and then ask your questionsright there. Also, you can check out the Links to threads, where we are collecting threads about questions that often come up. If you scroll down to the end of the first post, there also is a section about where to start.

I started with my horse when he was 3 years old. He was raw when I got him, so it's not exactly like your situation.
I tried horsemanship approaches like Parelli for a short while, but finally had a breakthrough when I found this forum and tried positive reinforcement with food rewards.
If you are not already familiar with the concept of operant conditioning, I can highly recomend this video, as it illustrates the topic nicely:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFwpXUVGcho

I began with my horse Mucki in a way similar to what Romy described above. I tried to ask little questions via body language, observed Mucki's reactions and rewarded every successful conversation. It's a bit like learning a language, first simple vocabulary like 'move forequarters', then 'to me', 'away from me', 'left', 'right'. It might sound boring or abstract at first, but I found that it established a wonderful foundation for all interaction later on.

_________________
Volker

The horse owes us nothing.

Hello Nan, welcome to this forum. I am using the c.t. method for the last 2 years. I don't ride so I develop my relationship with my two horses (one is mine and the other is boarding at my place). I see Magik as my big puppy dog. He follows me everywhere, and I take one day at a time. Sometimes I can stop training for a few weeks, I just hang out with the boys. Then, when I feel like training again, I'll be playing with them for weeks. They love to learn but it wasn't like that at first. So what I can suggest is just have fun. Take the time to introduce the new you to your horse, and let him introduce himself to you. Write every experience in your journal: good times, bad experiences (learn from these bad experiences). Once your horse has learnt to communicate with you, then I believe the sky's the limit. You can teach him anything.

Just an example. I wanted to teach Magik to move sideways with no pressure whatsoever. I asked him to mimick my legs (crossing). So he did. Then I added a cue which was my arm pointed in the direction I wanted him to move. So the front was moving fine. then I asked him to move his hind by pointing my whole hand frontward but at his side. When he moved his hind, I clicked & treated. Did this for awhile. Then I added both and voilà, he understood. This took about 3 months, working about 5 minutes occasionnally. but we had so much fun. Now Magik comes to me and starts doing all the stuff I've taught him if I don't give him a cue. He wants to play.

Sorry for the long post but I just love clicker training and I am so happy to have joined this forum way back. I'm sure you will enjoy yourself as much as I have.

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Jocelyne
[Hug your animals everyday. You never know!

Hi Nan,
welcome here!

Just to give you some more support, by telling my starting-story:
I had done a number of trainingmethodes before coming here and the last thing we tried was a Parelli course that did not go well. So my horse would not come near me. I spent quite some time in the pasture in the beginning just being there and rewarding Beau with a treat every time he came to take a look. I have to say he got interested soon enough and I started asking him ramener and moving his weight (not his entire body at first) away from me. just some small things standing still.

I am sure you will find your own way in this, just take the time...

Big hug
Barbara

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Horseriding is an art

My horse is a beautiful living sculpture

Hi Nan! A fellow Floridian, for some reason I'm really excited

I started out with traditional methods, then Parelli, then finally wound up back here. It was also videos that first drew my attention to the concept of natural dressage Haute Ecole (for me it was Hempfling) and then to this website.

I have a gaited horse, such a "perfect" dressage prospect to the normal world right? He is tall though, so maybe that's a plus

I loved reading your story, and hope to hear more about your horse journey on the forum!