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PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 3:19 am 

Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2009 9:30 am
Posts: 289
Location: Australia
Hello.

I'm Kate, Jen's (Jen in Aus) daughter. I found this forum a couple of months ago, but was too shy to join, so just read lots (and then showed Mum the other day, and she joined) and finally I'm here to say hi too. You all seem so lovely! A nice change from other horse forums I've been part of in the (fairly distant) past.

I was so happy when I found the forum. I've been using a clicker with horses for quite a few years now, but all the clicker websites and books I had seen insisted that it was not a method in itself, and that you MUST use some other (more traditional or NH) method with it. Of course, I don't think the clicker/food is the whole picture, there is the relationship with your horse as well - but professional (clicker) trainers seemed to be saying that you absolutely must use some kind of pressure/release and can not just have: you, your horse, a bridge signal and some treats, playing and learning - with no other equipment or round yard etc. I was doing just that (and Mum was just 'being' with the horses (if that makes sense) without making demands, and using positive reinforcement if she did ask something of them, well before I was), but I thought there must be some compelling reason that everyone seemed to think you couldn't do that. So it was a huge relief to find all of you, especially as some of you seem far more advanced with your horses than I am. Dressage movements! It is possible! :D I suppose I knew it was possible - and right - anyway, but I lose confidence sometimes, so it's lovely to have a place like this. If I have a bad day and all the horses ignore me, instead of thinking 'oh no, I'm being stupid even trying to do this', and giving up, I can come here and read some posts and become inspired! :)

At some point I will write about how I came to be where I am now, doing what I am doing with the horses, but for now I'm going to talk about more recent things.

I'm doing a riding instructor course, and plan to have a riding school eventually, but I want to do much more than just teach people to ride. I want to... well, I can't "teach" anyone to develop a good relationship with their horse, but I can encourage them to, and, even if they don't have their own horse, show them how to play with them (safely) and how to train/teach things, ask for things instead of demanding, help them work out what a horse is trying to tell them if something is wrong... things like that. As well as riding with a good seat and soft hands (but no bits on our horses), of course.

What I do most at the moment is play with the young ones, Billy and Willow. They both turned 6 at the end of last year. Willow I have ridden a few times, just in a web halter, and she was fantastic. She seemed to view me being on her back as just another interesting and fun game! (And she certainly lets me know if she doesn't like something.) I have since put on weight, so I'm going to lose that before I ride her again, and even then I don't know how much I'll ride her, because she is a small pony (12.2hh). She carried me just fine, but I'd feel mean riding her for long periods of time. So for now we just play, and go for walks up the road (to the amusement of the neighbours) and that's fine. (I often wish she were a few hands higher, though, she would be my perfect riding horse.) It's funny, before I found this forum, we were lunging (and just running around playing) with a target, and she started occasionally chasing and attacking it. I was a bit shocked and worried at first - did she hate it? But despite the "attacks", she still seemed to love targetting, so what was that about? I started clicking only for following nicely and not attacking, but she would still do it sometimes. Then I found this forum and it seems she was "chasing the tiger" and that's not a bad thing! So now we have a separate tiger and target. :D

I haven't ridden Billy yet. I lean over his back and he lines up at the fence for me to get up and put my leg over his back. But that's as far as I've gone. I haven't felt that he was ready for me to get on properly yet. I think we are getting to that stage, but I'd rather go too slowly than risk rushing him.

Mum taught him to have a halter on, and lead, and be okay with general handling (while I was doing the same with Willow) when he was a baby, but for the last... I think about three years, (not full years, I have had stretches of weeks or months where I couldn't really deal with the world and stopped spending much time with the horses) he has sort of been my 'experiment' - I wanted to see how far we could go, whatever the professionals said. I do everything with him with no pressure, and completely at liberty. (With the exception of one thing: sometimes he has a lead on to trim his hooves, just because he can get a bit grabby - it's play, not in a nasty way but it would still hurt - and I like to know where his mouth is. But we are working on 'standing still with your head to the front' without being
on lead.)

He'll do a lot without treats now, he just seems to enjoy playing. Sometimes he wants to go on playing and doesn't want a treat just at that moment! (Also, a big reinforcement for him is clapping and cheering if he does something really spectacular - yes, the neighbours think we're mad!!) I play a lot with him following a target on the end of a long stick, or just running with me, and he also knows: target my hand with his nose, shoulder, hip, and ear, spin around, go back, and various other things. Sometimes I put a saddle on him (to get him used to the weight, no girth at the moment. and a bareback pad, which he is good with. It's been interesting working out how to teach/ask for some things without using pressure - moving over (away from me) for example, but we work it out eventually. He sometimes gets very impatient if I'm not clear about what I'm asking and either pulls faces at me (not pinned ears, just a cross look in his eye) or walks off in a huff, but that's good for me because it means I have to learn to improve my explanations of what I want, cues, AND my timing with the click. :D He has of course taught me far more than I've taught him. We simply play more than we do any real training, though.

In saying I do everything with Bill without pressure, I don't mean that I use pressure or force with the others. We do most things with them with no halter or anything too, most of them are actually better than he is with standing to have their hooves trimmed!

I find the older ones, especially Muffin and Gretchen, who have had more bad things done to them, are less easily convinced that it's okay to offer behaviour. Or even to play. Muffin only JUST last year realised that he could try different things to see what would earn him a treat, and still only does it occasionally. He used to just stand there and wait to be told what to do, even though he knew I was waiting to give him treats and he wanted them. It was so sad. (And partly my fault for doing a very pressure based method with him years ago that I somehow believed was kind and gentle at the time.) He's finally started to run around with me and play a bit! :D

Anyway, I could go on about them forever, but I'd better stop. Sorry for the long ramble. I'm really looking forward to learning heaps and getting to know you all. :)

I will post more photos and maybe some videos later, but for now if you want to see our darlings, you can go to Mum's introduction thread, here: http://www.artofnaturaldressage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2053

Kate


Last edited by kate on Tue Mar 27, 2018 3:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 3:49 am 
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Hey Kate:

Welcome! So glad you've joined us! (And your mom, too -- we've got a couple of mother/daughter teams here -- just think that's so cool!)

Willow (I have a dog named Willow! :) ) and Billy sound marvelous -- I'm excited to hear more about your adventures!

All the best,
Leigh

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 6:44 am 
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Welcome, Kate!! :)

Sounds great what you are doing with your horses. I am looking forward to reading more. Oh, and I already said it in your mother´s introduction, but your horses are just so incredibly beautiful that I can´t decide which one I like most. :smile:

By the way, I think that those clicker trainers saying that CT was not a method and that you need something else for your training to be a complete system are very right. I also see positive reinforcement as a motivator, a consequence for the horse´s behaviour, and with that only one part of your training. I only don´t think that the other part needs to invole pressure. ;)

Warm Regards,
Romy


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 7:11 am 
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:D :D :D i already have some students for you!!!! :yes: so let me know when you want to meet some of them..... :roll: that is if you want to go down that path :huh: teenage girls can be :huh: hmmmmmm......how do i put it.......interesting :D :D :D :D tosay the least :lol: but i have one girl who really really needs to find someone quickly!!!! she is loosing inspiration and i am frightened she will give up. she is very very talented, but too sweet and gentle to cope with people in small town......you know what i mean 8) cant wait to hear from you.......oh, and welcome on the forum :f: :f: :f: :f: :f: :f: :f: :f: :f: :f:

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 10:25 am 

Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2009 9:30 am
Posts: 289
Location: Australia
Thank you Leigh, Romy and Jess for the warm welcome! :f:

A canine Willow! :D

Romy wrote:
I also see positive reinforcement as a motivator, a consequence for the horse´s behaviour, and with that only one part of your training. I only don´t think that the other part needs to invole pressure. ;)

Oh yes, that's just what it is: a motivator and consequence for behaviour, :yes: there is more to it than that - I just meant that what many say is: you definitely must always use a method of pressure too, and I, happily, haven't found that to be the case. :smile:


!!! :D :D :D Jess... I definitely want to meet some of them... Mum said she will email you soon (when she gets a turn on the computer ;) ) so we can all discuss that more then. I don't know about teenage girls... at least ones who can be, hm... interesting... teenage girls scare me! Bad memories from high school. :ieks: (Though I suppose when I have an actual business I can't say "please go away, you're terrifying!" so I will have to get used to them... anyway Mum's dealt with them in riding schools before so she's fine!) I would very much like to meet the girl who is sweet and gentle though! Does she have her own horse(s)? I do know what you mean about coping with people in a small town, I don't cope with them very well either.

Oh, I am so glad to have found this place :D :f: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 11:38 am 
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Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 1:45 pm
Posts: 788
yes, she has a special young mare that i helped her with. this mare was tossed to the side because shortly after breaking it was realised that sheneedeed more, so after three 'trainers' (you know the area, you know what i mean!!) she was considered a fairly dangerouse and useless ridden horse..................i love a challenge.

i saw her eyes, and i got her parents to get this little mare for her. ......i will go over to my intro to tell more about her, as i dont know wether i should post photos on yours. so i will meet you over there.... :yes: :yes:

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just keep swimming, quote from nemo!:)
love jessy


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 1:37 pm 

Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2009 9:30 am
Posts: 289
Location: Australia
I certainly know what you mean about 'trainers' in the area. We had a mare who had been with a 'trainer' here (she has gone to a new home now and seems very content with her new life :smile:, I will write about her one day)... she was the most emotionally damaged horse I have ever encountered.

I've just had a quick look at the pictures and what you have written in your post, how wonderful! :f: I will reply properly tomorrow and email you, I felt really sick for a lot of today and still feel a bit off, so sleep time soon and more talk when my head isn't muddled and I have more chance of making sense, lol :roll:

Also - I seem to be just talking to Jess, I'm not purposely being rude to everyone else! I've been reading a lot of your amazing diaries and looking at pictures and videos, and will comment when I get a chance. :study: I'm out of practice with talking on forums. Sorry :blush:


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 3:38 pm 
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Hi Kate!

Welcome :applause: :cheers: So nice together with your mother!
Looking forward to read more :yes:

Kind regards

Bianca

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 7:12 pm 
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I get busy and there are so many people that I neglect to say hello to! I don't mean to be so rude...so WELCOME from me too!!!!!

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 4:39 am 

Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2009 9:30 am
Posts: 289
Location: Australia
Hi Bianca and Karen, thank you! :smile:

I get busy too, I haven't been on here as much as I would like to be. But I might start a diary soon. :yes: :D


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 6:05 pm 
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welcome!! :f:

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 4:37 am 

Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2009 9:30 am
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Location: Australia
Tlove wrote:
welcome!! :f:


Thank you! :)


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