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 Post subject: Re: Hello from ITALY !
PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 10:48 pm 

Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2007 5:13 am
Posts: 182
Location: Italy
No Enzo you aren't the only one Italian here.... here I am!

Please, I apologize for Italian, but... let me write some rows into our language!

Ciao Enzo!

Se ti andasse di tradurre in italiano qualcuno dei migliori post che troverai in questo forum, fai come me, se ti va l'idea: pubblica la traduzione su questo stesso forum. C'è un topic un po' nascosto: Translations:Italian; dagli un'occhiata.... chissà, fra qualche giorno dovrebbe arrivare un'altra utente italiana, il forum le è piaciuto moltissimo!

Spero di incontrarti anche in qualche forum "a casa"!

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Alex


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 Post subject: Re: Hello from ITALY !
PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 3:29 pm 

Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 1:10 pm
Posts: 24
Location: ITALY
Makana wrote:
Hello Enzo! I think your English is wonderful -- I can understand you perfectly. :thumleft:

I am so glad that you are here! I did Parelli for quite some time also and still use many of his methods. Many of his ideas, games, and so on meld beautifully with AND philosophy once the phases/pressure is taken out.

I would love to see pictures of your horses! How many do you have?


Hi MAKANA, Thanks for the compliments on my english, that are wholly undeserved. My personal horse is Leda (anglo-arabian) that you can see in the youtube video and in this picture:
Image

In this photo you can see Leda doing trot two new students, Karexa (arabian) and PEPPY (paint)

Image


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 Post subject: Re: Hello from ITALY !
PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 4:08 pm 

Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 1:10 pm
Posts: 24
Location: ITALY
Alex wrote:
No Enzo you aren't the only one Italian here.... here I am!

Please, I apologize for Italian, but... let me write some rows into our language!

Ciao Enzo!

Se ti andasse di tradurre in italiano qualcuno dei migliori post che troverai in questo forum, fai come me, se ti va l'idea: pubblica la traduzione su questo stesso forum. C'è un topic un po' nascosto: Translations:Italian; dagli un'occhiata.... chissà, fra qualche giorno dovrebbe arrivare un'altra utente italiana, il forum le è piaciuto moltissimo!

Spero di incontrarti anche in qualche forum "a casa"!


Hi Alex, if I am not mistaken you are Alex Brollo, is not it?
I supposed that you was here because I knew And on your site and why I wanted to thank you. It 'a really big news!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Your site is a reference for all. You are truly to be admired for your desire for knowledge and passion that you put in disclosing your discoveries.
I am writing on the italian Forum 'il cavallo' but under the pseudonym of Valenzino, here instead I wanted to put my real name. It seems to me that you're not writing more on this forum. Are you active on some other forum?
As soon as possible i'll watch what you've already done and see if I can integrate.(For those who are my ability)
The AND philosophy is fascinating but i' m not so sure yet fully absorbed.
I would like to translate some articles. This should be helpful to go into that and deepen further.
Ciao, a risentirci presto e grazie ancora!


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 Post subject: Re: Hello from ITALY !
PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 5:48 pm 

Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2007 5:13 am
Posts: 182
Location: Italy
yes I am Alex brollo... thank you! Your words are really a big reward!

Yes, I'm active into some other forums. I founded one dealing with barefoot horses, http://barefooters.forumup.it , now I gave off it to a younger, and more experienced member (both about riding & trimming). Recently I almost stop to write forums, I have been very discouraged by a fight between two friends... :sad: ... yes, they ideas were very different, but both shared very interesting opinions.

Please put into "Il cavallo" my greeting to col. Angioni, at the first opportunity, we have some mail contact sometimes, since my present interest is wikisource (the free biblioteque of wiki project) and I need some hard-to-find data about ancient authors and ancient riding styles and words.

As you'll see, it's far from simple to explain AND principles into a general horse-related forum... try carefully, just a little bit at a time... ;)

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Alex


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 Post subject: Re: Hello from ITALY !
PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 6:06 pm 
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Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2008 2:32 am
Posts: 3270
Location: New York
Hello again, Enzo!

You wrote:
Quote:
Hi Leigh, I am truly touched by your demonstrations of affection towards me. I am glad that you are familiar with the Abruzzo. Do you have any Italian origin or you came just for the music festival? I too have come a time in California but only for work, because my first job is the doctor. I am specialist in Urology and i went to L.A. for a course with Prof. Skinner, five years ago.


I went to Molise for the music festival -- no Italian in me -- though my father (who is of Swedish descent, growing up in the midwest USA) calls himself an "Italian wanna-be." :D We have a good friend from Bologna who he practices being Italian with when he can...and some of that has rubbed off on me. So I'm an Italian by desire... :D

I live about an hour and a half north of LA, close enough to explore the city when I want, but thankfully far enough away so I don't have to live in all of the traffic and miles and miles of buildings!

I am really interested in how our different interests meet each other in our lives. Sometime, when you have time (if you want), I would love to hear you think about how medicine and horses teach and shape each other each other in your life.

I was reading a while ago about Stanford University -- they have their first year medical students work with horses to learn how to work with people. I thought this was wonderful!

Here's a link to an article about it if you're interested:
http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_10798482

In any case, I'm delighted that you are here!

And how wonderful that you and Alex have discovered you know each other in other contexts. There are so many special people who use this forum!

All the best,
Leigh

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 Post subject: Re: Hello from ITALY !
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 2:07 pm 

Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2008 8:42 am
Posts: 29
Location: Tuscany, Italy
Hello!!! I'm near Florence! I'm a Brit, been living here for over 25 years, me too I found this wonderful AND place through Alex, and me too am 'of a certain age' ..... 61.... I'll post info about myself as soon as I can - very busy at work and don't want to risk getting the sack (how would I support my horse? the cats?) - and my lunch break is almost over. a presto, Susan

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 Post subject: Re: Hello from ITALY !
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 5:56 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2007 5:47 pm
Posts: 302
Location: Grantville, PA
Hi Enzo, I am also coming from a Parelli background. I have no problems using pressure to train, but I love putting AND into what I already do. I too had a hard time at first trying to undersatnd AND. It sounded like you stand there and wait for your horse to do a piaffe and give him a cookie- well we know that isn't happening. Far awhile I really confused my horse because as I started AND I got so soft that there was no leadership and she did not like that at all. So instead I used the same methods I had before but used more mimicry, or shaddowing, and more treats.

So to sideways a horse towards me I teach it first with a stick on their other side. Then I get to where I walk sideways away from my horse as I cue him to move sideways towards me. Then I phase out the stick and just walk sideways, and give him a cookie. So I still use pressure ad release to start, but than I phase it into somthing else. THis has kept me and my horses happy.

Gradually I use more AND and less pressure. This way I don't confuse myself or my horse.

Of course, start however you want. If yo are used to putting your horse's nose on things, maybe start with some targetting. Since this is in Parelli too, it makes sense.

Good luck. You obviously have a great start!!!

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 Post subject: Re: Hello from ITALY !
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 6:30 pm 

Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 1:10 pm
Posts: 24
Location: ITALY
Susan wrote:
Hello!!! I'm near Florence! I'm a Brit, been living here for over 25 years, me too I found this wonderful AND place through Alex, and me too am 'of a certain age' ..... 61.... I'll post info about myself as soon as I can - very busy at work and don't want to risk getting the sack (how would I support my horse? the cats?) - and my lunch break is almost over. a presto, Susan


Hi Susan, nice to meet you in the AND community. By for now.


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 Post subject: Re: Hello from ITALY !
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 7:32 am 
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Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2007 7:29 am
Posts: 1486
Location: Belgium
Welcome welcome

Great pictures!
Regards

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Image
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 Post subject: Re: Hello from ITALY !
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 1:02 pm 

Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 1:10 pm
Posts: 24
Location: ITALY
danee wrote:
Hi Enzo, I am also coming from a Parelli background.

I Danee, I am very happy i can exchange my opinions with someone who has lived my same experiences.
In this moment i am training 3 horses. My personal horse (Leda, 17 years old, who has been being with me for 8 years. She is completely "Parellized".
Although being still very animate and dominant when she is in the herd, she behaves in very subdued way with me, and it is difficult to succeed in getting movements from "high school" she usualy does at liberty with others horses. Now I am trying to perk up her movements while we are playing together at liberty, but when i put in front of her the plastic bag to play the " chase of tiger" she looks me with "lost air" and always follows me instead of the pouch. It's quite frustrating!!!!!!!!!! Now i'am using much more treats and i'am going to "mimicring" each other. We will see what it will happen.
Luckily I have some satisfaction from the paint colt that I have been working for few months and therefore she is not conditioned by the pressures like the old Leda yet. After 3 or 4 times I have succeeded in getting a quite good "chase the tiger" that she does with remarcable excitement, that i reward immediately. Nevertheless when we play racing together I succeed in making her respect the correct distances and she doesn't behave in dangerous way (i will post a movie as soon as possible). I have not succeeded yet to get a behavior of mimicring, however, but I don't believe to be so far.
The paint owner is puzzled at least, because she wanted a horse like a sheep and now has a lion, but she follows the AND forum too and she understands what I am doing.
The 3° horse is a great arcanum for me. She is a plain egiptian arabian, 4 years old. She is a very very very spooky horse. I have been desensitizing her for 6 mounts but she doesn't trust me yet. Outside she frightens very easily and fly away suddenly. Many people has folled down yet and me too.
It's impossible try to make her follow the plastic bag because despite has tried to desensitize her more times, he frightens when she sees it stiring.
What do you think can i do to improve our relationship?
Ciao.


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 Post subject: Re: Hello from ITALY !
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 1:37 pm 
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Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2007 8:20 am
Posts: 6076
Location: Dresden, Germany
ENZO wrote:
The 3° horse is a great arcanum for me. She is a plain egiptian arabian, 4 years old. She is a very very very spooky horse. I have been desensitizing her for 6 mounts but she doesn't trust me yet. Outside she frightens very easily and fly away suddenly. Many people has folled down yet and me too.
It's impossible try to make her follow the plastic bag because despite has tried to desensitize her more times, he frightens when she sees it stiring.
What do you think can i do to improve our relationship?
Ciao.


Hi Enzo,

this topic might be of interest for you: Being a leader - different approaches to a situation where your horse is afraid or unconfident are being described there.

What I also liked very much is a story Sue from our forum wrote about her spooky Arabian mare Brodie. You can find it in Leigh´s diary in the fifth post on this page.

About your mare being afraid of the plastic bag: you can also use something else as a tiger, like a piece of cloth tied to the end of a stick. Maybe she will feel more confident with that? After all it is only a target and it isn´t mandatory that it makes scary noises in the wind. ;)

Warm Regards,
Romy


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 Post subject: Re: Hello from ITALY !
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 1:56 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 15, 2007 2:40 pm
Posts: 4733
Location: Belgium
Quote:
It sounded like you stand there and wait for your horse to do a piaffe and give him a cookie- well we know that isn't happening.


Yet strangely, that actually did happen to me and I think to some other's here as well like Barbara for instance :yeah: :rofl:

But the thing is, I do not wait for piaffe, I just wait for our horses to present to us what they want to do.
And I think one can never pressure someone into that, can one?

For me, it is not about what we want, it is about what our horses want.

It is not about what we want or horses do to, it is about what or horses are able to do and like to do.

Obedience in relationship to dressage is totally irrelevant to me and not of interest to me, for this can stand in the way of what is really going on in the horse's mind, to my experience, and THAT is what fascinates me endless.

I do not believe in dominance over a horse. They let them being dominanted because of their gentle herbivor nature, for if they want to, they can dominate a human every time, or do you think not?

Now, leadership I personally do not search after even. And I believe that AND is not the sort of 'programm that will get you leadership in ten steps or so' . But it will help you in terms of communication with your horses and isn't that worth so much in every aspect with horses?

That the horses that live with me decided to give me leadership because over the years, I have proven to make decissions which benefit them if they go a long... or that following me means that something fun or beneficial is coming up... well, that's an other thing.
I think AND might have had something to do with that as well :)

I believe in democratie. That always seems to work better then dominance and dictatorship, does it not?
So if you are a democrat... you can not take leadership... you have to be chosen to receive it.

To sum it up: leadership you receive because of your actions, dominance you take with certain actions.

Hope that clears it up.

Warm greetings to all from Josepha who is having a fever.

And edited because of poor writing. therefore I resign today for still not being well and myself. Excuse me, Josepha

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 Post subject: Re: Hello from ITALY !
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 2:14 pm 
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Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 4:10 am
Posts: 3688
Location: Pacific Northwest U.S.
Well Said, Josepha.

And I hope you get through your fever soon and get well.

Donald

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~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.


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 Post subject: Re: Hello from ITALY !
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 2:35 pm 
Site Admin

Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 7:51 pm
Posts: 2055
Location: Netherlands
Josepha wrote:
Now, leadership I personally do not search after even. And it is also not part of AND.


I also see the difference between dominance and leadership, but to say that leadership isn't part of AND as a method sounds too strict for me.

First of all because everybody has a different relationship with his horse, but also because in my experience there is a kind of leadership also between me and the ponies when I train. It's not that I tell them what to do every second, but more in the fact that I let them decide the things that they can judge best, and they let me decide the things that I can judge best. I'm not allergic to the word 'leadership', but you could also call it guidance, because I do feel that I guide the ponies when they experience with new movements, new ideas and help them develop those. And the ponies let me do that (I think!) because they have the idea that I know what we're doing and that I have a sort of overview of where we're going. While they themselves know much more about their own bodies, what feels good and what feels bad and what they feel like doing, so they guid me on that. But I do have the final say. If Blacky wants to do the levade 10 times, I will only 'allow' him to do it five times and then do some stretching and forwards moving and then do four more, because I can predict how his muscles will feel tomorrow if we do only that. 8)

Leadership in itself is just like allergy: the word itself means nothing because it's a term for a thousand different possibilities. If you want to say that AND doesn't do leadership, you first need a very precise definition of what you mean with that word. I do think that when doing AND you move away from dominance-based leadership, but on the other hand it will be replaced by another kind of leadership, maybe passive leadership, a kind of leadership that you don't force from your horse, but instead that you deserve and receive because you've started to behave better and more polite towards your horse.

It's difficult to describe AND in terms of what we don't do, because most descriptions then in honesty aren't true. If you say we don't use pressuretools to tell our horse what to do, that we don't correct, that we don't use pressure etc., it's probably not true. Because we will touch the horse in order to ask him something, which is pressure. But we use it in such a way that there's no threat of harder pressure if the horse doesn't respond. And the cordeo or the whip still is a pressure tool that can force the horse to do something - only when doing AND you choose not to use it that way. Perhaps it's so hard to define in the negative because we didn't start with the thought of what we are against, but instead of how we want to communicate with our horse in order to achieve what we want to see ourselves. Then it's not really that important what we don't do, but nistead what we do do. :f: :alien:

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 Post subject: Re: Hello from ITALY !
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 3:20 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 15, 2007 2:40 pm
Posts: 4733
Location: Belgium
okay... let me put it this way: we did not produce AND as a way to get leadership. (Or did we?)
We produced AND to find out how our horses want to train, did we not?
So if one, in the process gets leadership while applying the philosophy of AND that is great. But I do not think it is a given that this will happen, is it? Nor is it the ultimate goal... Or so I always thought...

Quote:
Leadership in itself is just like allergy: the word itself means nothing because it's a term for a thousand different possibilities. If you want to say that AND doesn't do leadership, you first need a very precise definition of what you mean with that word.

I believe I did that in my posted message... forgive me if I was not clear.

Quote:
I do think that when doing AND you move away from dominance-based leadership, but on the other hand it will be replaced by another kind of leadership, maybe passive leadership, a kind of leadership that you don't force from your horse, but instead that you deserve and receive because you've started to behave better and more polite towards your horse.


Yes, well to my imagination, that is exactly what I said... 8)

Bu then again.. I am having a fever...

Edit:
Quote:
If Blacky wants to do the levade 10 times, I will only 'allow' him to do it five times and then do some stretching and forwards moving and then do four more, because I can predict how his muscles will feel tomorrow if we do only that.


That are indeed choices we make. I for instance can also go totally crazy in the gym, knowing I am going to be sore the next 3 to 4 days. But I love the feeling of giving all I've got and I love the feeling in my muscles and they heal and even get stronger if I rest and get the right nutritions. It is about knowing one's body I suppose.
Now, if my horses want to do some excercise like crazy with this glee in their eyes feeling all high on it who am I to say they can't? I do the same thing, don't I? If they are sore the next day, they know where it came from. But somehow they seem just as satisfied as I :alien:
They'll learn more about their bodies by exploring and experimenting. I leave the choice op to them if it is only a quesion of muscle soreness or something... I'll say it: you'll be sore keeping this up, should you better not calm down?, but if they are really savoring their momemt, I'll take it as it is.

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