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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 8:32 pm 
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Hello to all :)

Some of you may know me from other forums, but to those of you who don't:

I am Anne, I'm 17 years old and I live in Norway with my family and our five horses. I own two of them, a 9 year old Norwegian horse called Kira and her 5 months old foal called Narwalòce. Pictures will hopefully come as soon as I find my way around here. I've owned Kira since she was no more than a foal, and now I've got her beautiful son too. :D Unfortunately, in a not-so-distant future, I will probably have to sell at least one of them due to further education... (money, time, blah) :( :S

I guess I should tell you a little about my reasons for coming here.

First of all, I've sadly lost some contact with many of the people who I treasured the most in other forums. These are people whose thoughts and experiences I highly appreciate, and I would not lose them if I could help it. :)

Second of all, I do believe that to make up one's mind about what one's inner, heart-felt philosophy about horses is, one has to explore, be critical, ask questions and feel one's way. Through the help of many fantastic people on the other forums, I think I've reached a point of being adequately selfconscious as to being able to be "exposed" to different styles of thinking and chose for myself what I like and dislike. My loyalty lies with my horses and my heart, not to a single forum or community, therefore I think it is only right that I explore and meet new ideas. Some inspirational, some maybe not.

This does not mean that I don't support the way of the Academia. The Academia might have many "rules", but these exist for perfectly good reasons, and I believe in them and have adopted them as my own. Therefore it is a bit confusing to me to find people from this forum having started riding uncollected horses, talking about leading with slight force or even using bits... :huh: Don't misunderstand me, I don't mean to critisize anyone. However, I come with many questions about this forum's philosophy.

The most important of those questions are the really basic ones:

How does this forum define "force"? I wonder, as I might think of some of the things described here as having some resemblance to what I associate with the word "force" (however, being an Academian, maybe I am over-sensitive here, I don't know...) What if a horse tells you "no" to something? How would you go about it?

Do all on this forum use treats for teaching the horse things? Or do some of you not?

How are your views on riding horses? About collection/no collection? And how do you define a horse to be "ready to ride"?

What about natural living conditions and shoeing/barefoot? I hope these things are important to you too?

Okay, this intro got a tiiiiny bit long... :D (as my posts generally do ;) ) I think maybe I have written enough for now. I would be very glad to get answers to at least some of these questions, in the meantime, I will be checking out your games. They look really funny... ;)

Lots of love,
Anne

P.S.: Avatar and signature will also come when I figure these things out (shouldn't take too long as I am getting pretty good at finding my way in new forums these days... :B )

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 8:53 pm 
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This forum is first and foremost, a study group. Everyone is on their own path. No one dictates what one must do or not do in order to be part of this forum. Everyone is here to learn, and they will learn what they are destined to learn at their own pace, in their own time.

Quote:
Therefore it is a bit confusing to me to find people from this forum having started riding uncollected horses, talking about leading with slight force or even using bits... :huh: Don't misunderstand me, I don't mean to critisize anyone. However, I come with many questions about this forum's philosophy.


You answered it here:
Quote:
Second of all, I do believe that to make up one's mind about what one's inner, heart-felt philosophy about horses is, one has to explore, be critical, ask questions and feel one's way.


People here are honored for TRYING to find a different way. We do not say you must do this or that in order to learn...if we did, then some people may not be exposed to new ideas at all...if they are banned from here for using a bit, then they would not have the opportunity to see what others do without them.

Seeds are planted here...wild sown. They grow where the soil is fertile. But even if they do not grow at once, they lie dormant, and wait for the right time.

In some other places, we also were not allowed to seek out the writings of the old masters, in order to adapt that knowledge to a nicer way with horses. Here, we know that the world is full of chances to learn...just like you, we take from it what works within our individual philosophies, and leave the rest behind.

Quote:
How are your views on riding horses? About collection/no collection? And how do you define a horse to be "ready to ride"?


Everyone is different. And since this is a universal fact, we see no point in being dictatorial...for all the same reasons quoted above. We all have different views...different and very VALID views. So here we do not argue...we seek to understand and to learn from each other.

Quote:
What if a horse tells you "no" to something? How would you go about it?


The horse is the teacher. If he says no, we listen. We learn.

What you ask, you will have to ask 409 times...once of each current member of the forum (and who knows hOw many that read here that do not register). Each will offer similar, but also unique answers.

This forum does not dictate anything. Here we all study together and learn from each other. Similar, yet different paths.

And WELCOME!!!!! :D

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 9:21 pm 
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Hello, Anne, and welcome here.

It sounds like you have had quite a journey, and have many tales to tell. I can't wait ...

Regarding your questions:

WHAT KAREN SAID, and also (from my point of view)

1. Force - yes, I will "force" my horses - but only if they insist on doing something that places themselves or a human at risk in any way. I define force, by the way, as demanding, insisting and MAKING them do something they would prefer not to do - over-riding their preferences by creating a "you MUST" situation. Does that make any sense at all? As they grows and mature I re-visit what this may or may not apply to. If they tell me "No" to something that is not a "safety" issue I accept it, but I do repeat that same question to them regularly.

2. I use treats most of the time on my unspoilt horse, and hardly ever on my rescue horse. They are different and I need to work differently with them.

3. They currently do not live as naturally as I'd like, but I'm working on that. My big boy has never had shoes, and I hope he never will. He did wear a bit during backing, and for a few months after I bought him, but has not since. The little rescue - I have very little information about his previous life - but he will definately be bitless and barefoot with us!

4. Riding? Well, there's riding that can harm, and riding that can't. I prefer not to do harm ...

5. Ready to ride? I don't need to define it - the horse knows better than me when it is time to ride.

I hope you find something good here, and pull up a comfy chair, and join us on our travels ...

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 9:24 pm 

Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 9:58 pm
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Location: Western Cape, South Africa
Hi Anne,
I was hoping you would find your way here!
This is a fantastic place to be where no one criticises what you post or your ideals. I know you will love it here after you get over the confusion. It took me a while too but I find the atmosphere warm and supportive.
I had the priviledge of attending a clinic here in SA with Josepha and Glen and other members of the forum. It was fantastic to see riders riding their horses completely relaxed and balanced and with a cordeo. It was great to meet everyone and share ideas and thoughts.
Take your time and please put some of your beautiful pictures?
Annette

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 10:36 pm 
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Anne wrote:
Hello to all :)

Some of you may know me from other forums, but to those of you who don't:

I am Anne, I'm 17 years old and I live in Norway with my family and our five horses. I own two of them, a 9 year old Norwegian horse called Kira and her 5 months old foal called Narwalòce. Pictures will hopefully come as soon as I find my way around here. I've owned Kira since she was no more than a foal, and now I've got her beautiful son too. :D Unfortunately, in a not-so-distant future, I will probably have to sell at least one of them due to further education... (money, time, blah) :( :S



Hi Anne. Nice to see you here, and sorry that you must sell. That's always such a hard thing, isn't it?

Anne wrote:

I guess I should tell you a little about my reasons for coming here.

First of all, I've sadly lost some contact with many of the people who I treasured the most in other forums. These are people whose thoughts and experiences I highly appreciate, and I would not lose them if I could help it. :)

Second of all, I do believe that to make up one's mind about what one's inner, heart-felt philosophy about horses is, one has to explore, be critical, ask questions and feel one's way. Through the help of many fantastic people on the other forums, I think I've reached a point of being adequately selfconscious as to being able to be "exposed" to different styles of thinking and chose for myself what I like and dislike. My loyalty lies with my horses and my heart, not to a single forum or community, therefore I think it is only right that I explore and meet new ideas. Some inspirational, some maybe not.

This does not mean that I don't support the way of the Academia. The Academia might have many "rules", but these exist for perfectly good reasons, and I believe in them and have adopted them as my own. Therefore it is a bit confusing to me to find people from this forum having started riding uncollected horses, talking about leading with slight force or even using bits... :huh: Don't misunderstand me, I don't mean to critisize anyone. However, I come with many questions about this forum's philosophy.



Hmmm...yes, it is a bit confusing to find a group that has a uniting philosophy but no particular dogma outside of agreeing we'd rather do no harm to the horse.

I, for instance, deeply dislike using bits on horses. Yet I sometimes discuss the fine points of how to do it well (I'm an instructor). I came from that world, though I carried with me a venerable tradition of working without bits, at least in part.

We celebrate each other here. And we ask ourselves hard questions I think more than we ask others. The course of horse and human history is currently at a place were the belief in the need for force still holds sway, yet too, we are at the frontier of discovery about the horse and what she will do not by force or coercion, but by request.

We choose a lot of ways to "request." That may be confusing. Especially since so many of us still ask the horse for traditional behaviors.

Anne wrote:

The most important of those questions are the really basic ones:

How does this forum define "force"? I wonder, as I might think of some of the things described here as having some resemblance to what I associate with the word "force" (however, being an Academian, maybe I am over-sensitive here, I don't know...) What if a horse tells you "no" to something? How would you go about it?

Do all on this forum use treats for teaching the horse things? Or do some of you not?

How are your views on riding horses? About collection/no collection? And how do you define a horse to be "ready to ride"?



Most use treats. I doubt that all do. And many of is move on to other kinds of rewards. Especially those that are, or lead to, the horse finding "reward," in spontaneity. Choosing to be with us, and choosing to play with us simply because it's in the horse's nature to play.

Of course this isn't generally believed, but the inability to play or recognize play can come from the horse's prior experience with humans.

I only accidentally discovered this myself in about 1966 because I was in particular circumstances where all pressure was off to "perform," and one of the horse's I had was a stallion with a huge sense of play and a wickedly funny sense of humor. He broke me of my habit of demanding.

Anne wrote:

What about natural living conditions and shoeing/barefoot? I hope these things are important to you too?



Yup! Just had my recovering Laminitic Andalusian mare (she has Insuline Resistance) trimmed this morning. I don't know if she's ever been shod, but you can be sure she never will be.

She's well on the road to recovery, thanks in part to help from AND posters, Hooflady in particular.

Anne wrote:


Okay, this intro got a tiiiiny bit long... :D (as my posts generally do ;) ) I think maybe I have written enough for now. I would be very glad to get answers to at least some of these questions, in the meantime, I will be checking out your games. They look really funny... ;)

Lots of love,
Anne

P.S.: Avatar and signature will also come when I figure these things out (shouldn't take too long as I am getting pretty good at finding my way in new forums these days... :B )


If I had to put a single word to the task of describing this forum I'd have to say, "JOY!"

A great many people here have a great deal of joy being with their horses, and of course with each other.

A few of us old timers in the horse world are fortunate to be taking guidance from them in letting go of force and coercion. It feels very nice, even if difficult for us to do.

I accepted Altea into my life (My Avatar above) to let her be my teacher. I suspect she will be a good one. It's not often one has a 13 year old horse come into their life that has never been "trained," to do anything. Gentle, sweetnatured, curious, and patient. Good attributes for a horse that's going to teach humans.

Donald Redux
Image

If you are curious, you can see both my current and my historic photo and video albums at - (guest password is 'haumea')

http://photobucket.com/guestlogin?albumUrl=http://s236.photobucket.com/albums/ff51/donald_redux/

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So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 10:38 pm 
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Welcome, Anne!! :)

I could not agree more on what Karen has said and I don´t really have anything to add. Indeed, if you want to know what we are doing, you would have to ask all our 400+ members as everyone is different and we see this as a chance to learn, rather than a drawback.

I hope you will enjoy our forum!

By the way, it was mentioned sometimes now that Maksida´s new school had so many rules. Just for curiosity, what are they about?

Warm Regards,
Romy


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 11:09 pm 
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Welcome Anne! :)

Here is a friendly place, where people are not judgmental (or at least try to :green: ) . So one can exchange thoughts and experiences freely, without having to worry to feel like an :alien: . That leaves everyone the freedom to listen to their horses and find out what fits best for each individual horse and person.

As you wonder what is considered to be "force" here, that is a good point. I find that words are used by most people rather without too much thought. People have different concepts about words. It would be often better to first agree on a definition and then use the word with care. English is also rather fuzzy often - that is why German is the language of philosophers :D

Some words have been discussed on the forum already, but I do not think "force" has been. So for my personal understanding of that word "force", it is not something I would ever want to use when it comes to horses. Force goes along with being rough in my vocabulary. But there are other people who might have a different concept of the word.

Quote:
Do all on this forum use treats for teaching the horse things? Or do some of you not?

I do not use treats at all, right now. I decided to not hand feed my horses, nor do any kind of clicker training. And it is great to know to have the freedom to change that, should I change my mind about that. ;)

I believe one can ride a horse in a way the horse is ok with. And that is the point when the horse is ready, when he is ok with being ridden. But then one has still to take good care about how and how much one does ride. There comes in the equipment, the balance of the horse and of course collection. And what collection means, that is again something people do discuss about.

Most people come here to this forum, because they are looking for a good way with their horses. So many will have their horses barefoot and in more natural living conditions. But if for some reason you can't offer your horse such at the moment, then you are still welcome here.
It is nice to have avatars and signatures, but even without those, one is welcomed here. :friends:

So welcome once more :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: Looking forward to read more from you. :)

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 11:56 pm 
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WOW. What a tremendous response in such a short time! :D I don't even know where to start!

First of all, I've now found and read many of the lessons in "level 1". I must say that as I read on, I'm actually surprised to be surprised (yes, exactly) that I like very much what I'm reading! :applause: I was afraid that I'd only be able to use some of the tips and thoughts here, and maybe only half-heartedly, but to my joy I find that this is very much the same as my own thoughts/likings. Pluss I liked that there were many inspirational hands on, yet not "do this then that", tips there. :D There's a fine line, but I really liked what I was reading. :) I must admit, at first I'd thought that I would come to a place that didn't take the horse's true freedom of choice seriously. Didn't mean to be judgmental (though totally was ;) ), just that it is taken very seriously in Academia, which I like. I was so happy to realize it didn't compromise my beliefs! :green:


Romy wrote:
Quote:
By the way, it was mentioned sometimes now that Maksida´s new school had so many rules. Just for curiosity, what are they about?


Well, it really doesn't have any rules other than no sports, shoes or bits. Like here, people can come with different opinions, discuss and get educated. But there is a very great emphasise put on learning, developing one's own mind, always questioning one's intensions, anatomy lessons etc., which I personally like very much. But of course, with great knowledge comes even greater responsability, and I think it is this that many mistake for "rules". Maksida's school is truly a wonderful place, just like I'm sure this is, and I salute her and respect her in every way possible for the tremendous work she does for horses and people. Then you might ask what I'm doing here? :P Well, curiosity. I'd like to explore every way and learn from as many as possible. :)

Oh, and I'll upload some pictures asap to please Annette too. :) :green:

But again: thank you for the warm welcome! :)

Lots of love,
Anne

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 12:03 am 
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And here some pictures from my home :D

Three of the horses - my two rascals and my mother's ex-trotter Knekt - grazing in the summer fields.

Image

From a walk with the two.

Image

My horse is godsent :D

Image

Another walk...

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Beautiful boy! :)

Image

Our dog Leo, my mother's boyfriend and Narwalòce enjoying some plums from the fruit garden... :)

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Leo :)

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Kira and Lòce enjoying the sun...

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My dog and my foal are becoming good friends... :D

Image

Anne

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 12:28 am 
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Hi, Anne, and welcome!

I am nodding my head in agreement with what's been written by others! :)

To that, I would add, because it feels important to me:

1. I truly believe there is no "one" way to do anything. What I love about this forum is that it is many people each finding their own individual paths -- and even their individual paths with their individual horses. Each of us here, both the people who visit and the horses we represent, are different. For me, the truth and rightness of what we do is unique to each of us.

As a result, I can't even give you one answer, for example, about shoeing. One of my horses is a young filly who has never been shod, and I don't anticipate she ever will be. The other is a rescue with chronic alignment issues who was saved by corrective shoeing -- I doubt he'll ever go without shoes.

I love the idea of shoeless horses, and respect the theory and experimentation that has gone into expanding the understanding of how the horse's hoof works. But to me the important thing is my horses and what they need, and for me, that trumps a particular position or dogma any time. So I eagerly learn from those here who are experienced with barefoot horse care, and make my decisions as best I can for my individual horses based on what I learn from many sources -- but most importantly, my horses.

2. With this sense of learning together comes a both of sense of humility and a self-confidence together. There are no "masters" here, and everyone is a "master." Everyone who comes here has something to offer -- their own genius, their own ideas, their own experiences in the world. I learn as much from our members who are exploring the magical world of their horses for the first time as much as I do the people here who have decades of experience. We each bring ideas and insights, all of which are valuable.

3. At the ripe old age of 40 something with a bunch of academic degrees under my belt, I am not looking for the teaching or philosophy of one person or one school of thought -- been there, done that, hated it! ;) I am interested in the process of experiential learning, supported and cheered and lovingly challenged by the amazing people in this group. To me, it is most interesting, most helpful, most inspiring, to share ideas with people who share a common enough framework in their understanding of their hearts and their goals for their relationships with their horses that I can learn from them both when they do things much in the same way I do, but also when they do things differently. This forum makes me think -- deeply, creatively -- about many things.

Josepha has a wonderful saying that I find myself thinking about a lot, both in this forum, and outside of it in the rest of my life:
"Give first, then ask."

For me, this is one of the true hearts of this way of approaching horses (and everyone else in our lives!). :-)

Beyond that, empathy, communication, respect, love, trust, kindness, generosity, imagination, creativity, thoughtfulness -- these are thing things that are important to me as I learn to be a better person with my horses. If I do anything with my horses, I am constantly asking, "why?" Why am I wanting to do it, why is it important, why am I approaching it the way I am? For me, the "hows" of what we do (whether it's shoeing, or feed, or riding, or leading, or whatever) come out of the why. When I can honestly say that the "why" is for the good of both me and my horse, I know I'm on the right track.

So, welcome, and I look forward to hearing more about you and your horses!

All the best,
Leigh

PS: I was writing this as you were posting your last post. Wow! What a beautiful place you and your horses (and the rest of your family, oh, yeah, right, them!) ;) live!

And I love your sense of curiosity and self-analysis and responsibility. Very wonderful!

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 11:40 am 
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Dear Anne,
I' very happy to meet you here and that you find inspirable what you read here!

Did you read this: http://www.artofnaturaldressage.com/philosophy.htm ?
Than you will know that the basic philosophy (regarding the handling of horses, not the handling of humans ;)) here is not so different to Academia or even NHE.

Anne wrote:
Second of all, I do believe that to make up one's mind about what one's inner, heart-felt philosophy about horses is, one has to explore, be critical, ask questions and feel one's way. Through the help of many fantastic people on the other forums, I think I've reached a point of being adequately selfconscious as to being able to be "exposed" to different styles of thinking and chose for myself what I like and dislike. My loyalty lies with my horses and my heart, not to a single forum or community, therefore I think it is only right that I explore and meet new ideas. Some inspirational, some maybe not.
:applause: :applause: :applause:

That is exactly the reason why I came here. Especially after my posts in this dominance/leadership thread and the answers and reactions to it at academia!!! I DO want to learn from all those great horse people in the world and I refuse to believe that they are all bad because they don't fit totally and in all aspects in a certain philosophy!!! And I think we would loose so much knowledge and experience if we put ourself above all those people because we think we are the most developed and have the purest and best way of them all.

I also have the deepest respect for the high ideals of Academia but I also have great respect for many other horsepeople and their knowledge! And I don't have the feeling that I can really exchange all my thoughts over there without beeing looked down on me and beeing critized in an embarrasing way....

Leigh wrote:
3. At the ripe old age of 40 something with a bunch of academic degrees under my belt, I am not looking for the teaching or philosophy of one person or one school of thought -- been there, done that, hated it! ;) I am interested in the process of experiential learning, supported and cheered and lovingly challenged by the amazing people in this group. To me, it is most interesting, most helpful, most inspiring, to share ideas with people who share a common enough framework in their understanding of their hearts and their goals for their relationships with their horses that I can learn from them both when they do things much in the same way I do, but also when they do things differently. This forum makes me think -- deeply, creatively -- about many things.


YES YES YES I can only agree with all my heart (even relating to the age ;) )

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 5:06 pm 
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Many people here like the challenge of looking at a traditional method for a particular movement, and adapting it to meet the no bits,spurs or force philosophy. In this way, you can not only learn from a wider range of horse people (even those you do not like), but you become more creative and more imaginative and more self reliant in how to achieve the gymnasticizing elements for the horses. We CAN learn from someone who uses bits, or pressure/release methods.

There was a philosophy in another forum that made you feel that if you watched or learned from a person who uses bits and spurs and loads of pressure, then you were condoning that. And that in itself made you guilty by association. That idea is not supported here...because we CAN learn even from those we do not wish to emulate...because only by learning about them first hand can we honestly decide not to emulate them.

One must learn about what they consider bad as well as what they feel is good if one is to create their own philosophy in their way with horses. Here we simply embrace the fact that all our philosophies grow and develop in different realities...and this allows us to not only learn from each other, but love each other for those differences.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 7:44 pm 
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Karen wrote:
Many people here like the challenge of looking at a traditional method for a particular movement, and adapting it to meet the no bits,spurs or force philosophy. In this way, you can not only learn from a wider range of horse people (even those you do not like), but you become more creative and more imaginative and more self reliant in how to achieve the gymnasticizing elements for the horses. We CAN learn from someone who uses bits, or pressure/release methods.


I think this is very wise, Karen.

I have many teachers about horses -- those that live on my shelves in books, those who have invested in sharing their insights and experiences online or on videos, and those who I've trained with or have done clinics with.

Many of them do things differently than I do, but all of them are good teachers for me, often because they understand something more deeply or differently than I do, and I can learn from that understanding, whether how we choose to react to that understanding is the same.

For me, this process of learning how to stay open and still centered about horses has been extraordinary. It has helped me to find confidence in my own instincts, beliefs, experiences, and perceptions without instantly needing to be dismissive of anyone who does things differently than I do. It's not an easy balance to maintain -- it takes work to remember that our rightness isn't necessarily rightness for any one else, but in the moments where I truly find that, I find a sense of strength and clarity that takes my breath away. My own truths aren't dependent on anyone else's, nor are theirs dependent on mine.

There is a teaching in Zen philosophy celebrating the concept of both/and rather than either/or. I think this is an idea that can be hard for people in Western culture -- we tend to be taught that either one thing is right or the other is right. But in this way of thinking, both my truth can be truth and yours can be truth -- even if they are different, and especially because they are different.

I think this is exactly what Karen is talking about, and the beauty of it (and what she's suggesting) is that everything can be a learning opportunity for us -- challenging us to think deeply about our own ideas and assumptions and pushing them forward and outwards, rather than allowing them to calcify into a hard set of beliefs that begin to exist to feed themselves, rather than to support our experiences and learning.

All that said, I also (in my cranky old age) tend to seek out teachers and community that respect this sense of both/and, rather than those who are caught in their singularity. These feed me, and, I find, tend to be open and kind. I'm at a point in my life that the compassion and sensitivity of those I engage with are as important as their message -- I don't have a lot of time for people who are harsh, or arrogant, or dismissive of others, even if they have brilliant ideas. So I'm probably a bit less open about this than Karen is ;) (and perhaps have hit the edge of my own abilities to live in the both/and philosophy...). :) But I feel that there are so many brilliant ideas out there -- whether in the context of horses or beyond -- and this is one of the ways that I can filter what I spend my time with.

This is all probably far more than you bargained for, Anne! :)

(And Franziska, I just KNEW you were a sister kindred spirit!) 8) :)

All the best,
Leigh

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Last edited by Leigh on Sun Dec 07, 2008 5:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 10:09 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2008 8:52 pm
Posts: 30
Oh, I love the response I've gotten here! :D After rereading my initial post, I was a bit worried that I had sounded a bit... I don't know... harsh? Or maybe critical? Anyway, that was no way what I intended... ;)


Karen said:
Quote:
There was a philosophy in another forum that made you feel that if you watched or learned from a person who uses bits and spurs and loads of pressure, then you were condoning that. And that in itself made you guilty by association. That idea is not supported here...because we CAN learn even from those we do not wish to emulate...because only by learning about them first hand can we honestly decide not to emulate them.


Yes, exactly what I have started thinking. :D The scary thing about being in a radical community that is quite "isolated" from every other horse community, is that there can occur somewhat of a stagnation. This doesn't mean that being radical isn't good. But hearing the opinions of other people, not necessarily those who think in completely opposite ways than us, but also people we can to some extent agree (and disagree) with - it is all important. You get new ideas, fresh thoughts to awaken your own.

Leigh said:

Quote:
For me, this process of learning how to stay open and still centered about horses has been extraordinary. It has helped me to find confidence in my own instincts, beliefs, experiences, and perceptions without instantly needing to be dismissive of anyone who does things differently than I do. It's not an easy balance to maintain -- it takes work to remember that our rightness isn't necessarily rightness for any one else, but in the moments where I truly find that, I find a sense of strength and clarity that takes my breath away. My own truths aren't dependent on anyone else's, nor are theirs dependent on mine.


Beautiful! :D :applause: I really like your way of thinking! :)

Leigh said:
Quote:
This is all probably far more than you bargained for, Anne!


Not at all! :D All brain food is good brain food. ;)

Lots of love,
Anne

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The greatest thing you'll ever learn, is just to love and be loved in return....


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 4:42 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 7:51 pm
Posts: 2055
Location: Netherlands
Welcome Anne,

Great questions! It sure made me think, and these are my own answers. ;)

Anne wrote:
How does this forum define "force"? I wonder, as I might think of some of the things described here as having some resemblance to what I associate with the word "force" (however, being an Academian, maybe I am over-sensitive here, I don't know...) What if a horse tells you "no" to something? How would you go about it?


Well, I do use force and throw everything I have into battle in order steer a pony away from the middle of the road if a truck is approaching. If we’re in a situation that puts my horse, myself or our environment under a direct threat, I will do anything I can to prevent harm.

However, in safe training situations, for me force and ‘upping the pressure’ aren’t tools I use.
I feel that they actually are quite similar because in both cases the horse knows that a ‘no’ is not an option as eventually the pressure will be too hard to resist.

A couple of days ago one of our members (sorry, forgot the name!) posted a topic on the difference between pressure and feel, and for me that really hit the nail on the head: for me the difference between soft pressure and feel, is that soft pressure will be followed by harder pressure until the horse gives in.

For me that’s not really an option on our training, because in that system your cues become inherent correction, always reinforcing the thought in your horse that he shouldn’t break the rules or do other things than you ask for. And with that you take away his imagination and his own ideas and the energy connected to that. I would want a horse who is not afraid to say no in order to protect his own body, or to suggest a better idea. And I also want him to feel safe enough to experiment with the things that I ask. When I ask for a pesade and Blacky does it too low, it’s not wrong – it’s the first step to a levade!

So instead of pressure-release, I work with feel-release: there’s no upping the pressure; I just ask for something with my voice, bodylanguage or by placing a finger against his body. If he ignores that, I might repeat the same cue with the same lightness, and then do something else if he still doesn’t respond. After all, for an exercise is only worth something if it’s done with enthusiasm. If the horse doesn’t feel good about it, it’s worthless!

So why would an Academian (I’ve never heard of that word before actually in this context, do you mean a member of the school of Maksida?) be more over-sensitive about this than people who roam here? ;)


Anne wrote:
Do all on this forum use treats for teaching the horse things? Or do some of you not?


Some of us do, some of us don’t. I myself work with treats a lot (well, all the time would be more accurate 8) ) but I think it’s great that others experiment with training horses without treats as well and see where that leads to.

The fact that I use treats now, doesn’t mean that I’m against using treats or that I will never stop using treats in the future either. The only reason for me to work with treats is that Blacky and Sjors love it, and the only reason why I train them is because I want them to enjoy our sessions and let those sessions really enrich their lives (not just in terms of getting fatter, but also mentally ;) ). So if stimulating with food equals a happy pony, then I will use food. 8)

Anne wrote:
How are your views on riding horses? About collection/no collection? And how do you define a horse to be "ready to ride"?


I don’t ride Blacky and Sjors (even if they were highly collected I still would think it would be bad of me to ride them, considering their .99 height at the withers ;) ) and I do think that collection is very important for horses in order to be able to sustain the weight of the rider in a healthy way. However, I don’t believe in absolutisms like ‘you should never ride your horse if he’s not collected’. Simply because collection isn’t a bow. For me collection is not a trick that you can put on or off, it’s a living process.

Even the king of these statements himself, Alexander Nevzorov, has quite to very uncollected moments in his videos when he is riding his horses. Just as that you should never lunge your horse uncollected. In one of his movies you will see him talking to the camera while Lipisina is being lunged in a very uncollected trot by Lydia. I think a horse will only more really collected for a maximum of 2-5 minutes on end and have frequent uncollected stretching down pauses in between – that’s also part of the process of learning to deal with the weight of a human, something that you can never prepare him totally for from the ground.

So if you ride your advanced horse naturally collected at liberty for five minutes, he will still have more and less collected moments. And if you ride a green horse in natural liberty, then he will probably shift between collected-uncollected every minute. And of course a piaffe is more collected than a collected trot. And if you can only ride a collected horse – does that mean that you can only ride collected exercises also? So where does that lead the extended trot, or the regular canter versus the collected canter?

So my real answer to your question would be: what is you definition of collection? Because only then it will be possible to answer this.


Anne wrote:
What about natural living conditions and shoeing/barefoot? I hope these things are important to you too?

Well, Blacky and Sjors have always been barefooted and 24/7 in the pasture or paddock. For me that’s so normal that it’s not really an issue either. To me it’s not important, it’s just natural. 8)


A question back in return, because I’m always curious about how people have found our site: how did you find us? From your first post you seemed to have a somewhat negative idea about what this site would be – why did you feel like that, or how did you get that idea?

It’s not meant as criticism, I’m just really interested in how outsiders view our forum. The intriguing thing for me about our forum is that traditional NH trainers seem to think we’re total softies who have completely out of control, dominant horses because we don’t use pressure and corrections – while I got the idea that NHE’ers generally have the idea that over here we’re all controlfreaks who only go for results and not for a real relationship, simply because we publish the methods with how we train our horses on the site instead of keeping them secret. So what on earth are we??? 8)

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