The Art of Natural Dressage

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PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2008 4:17 pm 
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I work on the assumption that, as no-one either in their right mind or who is not registered blind is ever going to compliment me on my beauty or graceful movement, I might do well to have horses who attract such flattery and bask in their reflected glow


Well heck, I have to add my ooo's and aaaaa's to the rest of the crowd. Beautiful horses! I am looking forward to your contributions to the forum! I hope we hear a lot from you!


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PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2008 1:20 am 
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Location: Taiwan, via NZ
Hi! I think I missed your name in there.

Okay, more praise and recognition (but sadly no material rewards :lol: ) from me. What wonderful photos. You certainly look beautiful graceful and elegant atop your horse!

Are you riding bitless in the photo, as it appears?
I am very curious to hear how you have trained "Tiga" for collected riding, and how you achieve collection without a bit? This is a major fascination for most of us here I think, and most of us are still way back down the road at the point of still working at collection in groundwork, and perhaps getting a few collected ridden steps.

Is this just Tiga's natural way of going (he looks like he was born perfect :lol: ) or is this something you have had to pay a lot of attention to training for.
I'm sure you know that there are SO MANY in the world who still vehemently believe that it is not possible to collect a horse for riding without the use of a bit...
So.. would love to hear your experiences.

Warm welcome! And if you ever feel the desire to learn another language, we'd be happy to host you for Chinese learning if you'd like to pop over to Taiwan and have a poke around in our horses mouths... :lol:

Sue

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I have not sought the horse of bits, bridles, saddles and shackles,
But the horse of the wind, the horse of freedom, the horse of the dream. [Robert Vavra]


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PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2008 12:58 pm 
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Hi Tiga,
Sorry I am a little late but from me too a very warm welcome! Your horses are beautiful! Where in Portugal are you exactly?
Kind regrds,
Els


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PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2008 7:50 pm 
Amiro wrote:
Hi Tiga, Sorry I am a little late but from me too a very warm welcome! Your horses are beautiful! Where in Portugal are you exactly? Kind regrds,Els

Thank you Els. I have a house near Caldas da Rainha about an hours drive north of Lisbon on the coast.

windhorsesue wrote:
Hi! I think I missed your name in there.
Okay, more praise and recognition (but sadly no material rewards :lol: ) from me. What wonderful photos. You certainly look beautiful graceful and elegant atop your horse!

Are you riding bitless in the photo, as it appears?
I am very curious to hear how you have trained "Tiga" for collected riding, and how you achieve collection without a bit? This is a major fascination for most of us here I think, and most of us are still way back down the road at the point of still working at collection in groundwork, and perhaps getting a few collected ridden steps.

Is this just Tiga's natural way of going (he looks like he was born perfect :lol: ) or is this something you have had to pay a lot of attention to training for.
I'm sure you know that there are SO MANY in the world who still vehemently believe that it is not possible to collect a horse for riding without the use of a bit...
So.. would love to hear your experiences.

Warm welcome! And if you ever feel the desire to learn another language, we'd be happy to host you for Chinese learning if you'd like to pop over to Taiwan and have a poke around in our horses mouths... :lol:

Sue


Thank you Sue, for both the complements and the invitation. I am struggling to get to grips with even basic Portuguese so anything else would totally fuse my brain at present (I am not a very good or organised or disciplined student at the best of times) :oops:

In the photos in the halter Tiga is bitless and in collection. BUT...he was trained bitted to a high level before I 'saw the light' So anyone is welcome to take a pop at me for 'cheating'...however he is much happier doing it bitless. He is more expressive and gives of his back more willingly and we have learnt a whole lot by undertaking the Parelli programme. He was my 'sacrificial lamb' poor boy. My new colt, Cristo, will benefit from Tigas years of suffering at my inept hands.

Anyone who aspires to ride a collected horse also 'cheats' and takes a short cut by owning a Lusitano...they are built collected, have high play drive and are highly intelligent. Tiga took 20 minutes to teach in hand piaffe when he was 4 years old (the cues and principles)...and I have a standing bet that I can teach any Lusitano to piaffe within 6 packets of polos :roll: and have never failed yet. I do not extend this wager to any other breed :lol:

PS. my real name is Jan but I get called Tiga as a nickname.


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PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 6:20 am 

Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2008 3:38 am
Posts: 331
Location: Australia
Well that's a relief, I was beginning to feel quite useless. But now I know you cheated twice, I feel much better! :lol: I think however you are being a bit modest. I've seen riders with such horses ridden with bits and not being able to collect them, so I'm thinking you are way more skilled than you are letting on. This off course won't stop me telling myself that if I had an Iberian horse I'd be so much more advanced. :lol:

Cheers,
Kim.


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PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 8:08 am 
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Yes - I agree with Kim...On all... :lol: :lol: :lol:


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PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 4:02 pm 
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I also agree with Kim! Lusitano or Andalusian...I see MANY that are ridden and trained in "modern" dressage and they an look every bit as flat and lifeless as any other breed trained in that way. So much of it has to do with training, not breeding. I know, of course, that what you say is true about the Iberian breeds (this includes some mustangs) that are "born collected" though. The differences in natural ability and desire to be collected, between my Quarter Horse and my (mere) half Andalusian is vast.

I am glad you're here, in that you can always let us know how things are/were done with Tiga...because we are constantly looking at the "traditional" and adapting what we can to AND - bitless and reward-based. The knowledge is certainly not wasted, is it! I think you have much to share!

And I have to say again that Tiga is beautiful, but Cristo, even in the photo at six months old...took my breath away. He is stunning.


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PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 6:53 pm 
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Karen wrote:
I also agree with Kim! Lusitano or Andalusian...I see MANY that are ridden and trained in "modern" dressage and they an look every bit as flat and lifeless as any other breed trained in that way. So much of it has to do with training, not breeding. I know, of course, that what you say is true about the Iberian breeds (this includes some mustangs) that are "born collected" though. The differences in natural ability and desire to be collected, between my Quarter Horse and my (mere) half Andalusian is vast.

I am glad you're here, in that you can always let us know how things are/were done with Tiga...because we are constantly looking at the "traditional" and adapting what we can to AND - bitless and reward-based. The knowledge is certainly not wasted, is it! I think you have much to share!

And I have to say again that Tiga is beautiful, but Cristo, even in the photo at six months old...took my breath away. He is stunning.


Just an observation on "collection," a word or two from observation.

When we, as in Dressage, say "collected," we mean with raised action, a drawn together frame. When those in western riding say collection they mean low short steps at whatever gait...though in loping, canter, they can get some true collection going.

All "collection" is in most western riding, even competition, is a reduction in impulsion.

Though I have to admit, a quiet ride in the countryside on a nicely set up Quarter Horse doing a soft slow trot is quite pleasurable.

I do believe that they believe that collected as they label it is in fact "collected."

Isn't it sad too that those wonderful natural abilities that have been bred into Iberian horses over time so carefully are thrown away in modern Dressage.

I look at the interest in dressage competition, bitless, etc. in the AND 'tradition' and can't help but wonder that if it takes hold (as it seems to be doing in the very early stages) a new standard with arrise.

I think time is wasted attempting (though I admire and encourage those that try) to rehabilitate modern dressage and get them to accept some of the AND principles.

l believe that AND could focus on Classical Dressage as the goal with new ways of asking for performance and frame.

That it can be done is inarguably true, as we show with our AND member videos now on nearly a daily basis.

I count on our moderators, and each other, to hold us to a clear model, while accepting that we also experiment, so that we have this wonderful place to explore and promote a return to, and continued development of, Classical Dressage.

And I trust those of us that came from NHE, as they have mentioned, continue to appreciate what what good and reject, as they apparently have, what unscrupulous content of some posters there should be rejected.

The pride with modesty, and the joy in the doing, that I see here strongly supports my feeling that this is the frontier, AND, that will continue to move forward out of the older traditions.

Such good company for horses and those that love them, truly.

Donald Redux '65

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PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 8:24 pm 
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Tiga, in the front-on shot of Tiga is he being ridden with just a cordeo (with the halter/reins just sitting)? When I looked at the bigger picture in your website album, that's what it kind of looked like... but wanted to be sure.

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~Job 39:19a

www.cambriahorsemanship.com


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 9:22 pm 
Karen wrote:
I am glad you're here, in that you can always let us know how things are/were done with Tiga...because we are constantly looking at the "traditional" and adapting what we can to AND - bitless and reward-based. The knowledge is certainly not wasted, is it! I think you have much to share!

And I have to say again that Tiga is beautiful, but Cristo, even in the photo at six months old...took my breath away. He is stunning.


Thank you Karen. I will do my best to contribute within my limitations. One of my problems is that I don't actually think or analyse much when I do anything...I just do it!

I have always dreamed of having a buckskin Lusitano stallion, but they are very expensive as you pay a big premium for the colour. Last year I went with my friend to deliver some horse feed to her clients new stud with their first crop of foals in the field.We were of course invited to view the mares and foals. From 100 metres away I pointed to the buckskin boy and said "Christ,look at that" It was only after I learned that his name WAS Cristo :lol: I told the breeder my dream and he said a price for the foal that I could not refuse. I did not have the money at that time but my friend helped me and Cristo is now at her house in the field with her colts of the same age learning how to be a horse. I pay the last money back to her next week and he is all mine!

I did not love him only for his colour, his bloodlines are spectacular and also his character and movement. He is very cheeky and has a very high desire for play. He is brave but careful and sensitive without being silly. When I last saw him in January I took him for walks in the village and we passed a farm with milking cows. They were by the road and he wanted to go to say hi to them. He didn't care when a big tractor drove past with a trailer behind. Training him is going to be soooo much fun!

Donald Redux wrote:
Isn't it sad too that those wonderful natural abilities that have been bred into Iberian horses over time so carefully are thrown away in modern Dressage.

I look at the interest in dressage competition, bitless, etc. in the AND 'tradition' and can't help but wonder that if it takes hold (as it seems to be doing in the very early stages) a new standard with arrise.


All is not lost!!! http://www.luislucio.com/doma-nat/index.htm
Luis Lucio the Spanish Olympic dressage rider is a NH convert. All his staff are Parelli trained and his horses are all worked using PNH online before he rides them each day.

http://www.dressagenaturally.net/index-Dateien/Page324.htm
and Karen Rohlf who I have met personally is a very good 'bridge' between normal and natural dressage. I think she has been mentioned before somewhere on this forum?

Makana wrote:
Tiga, in the front-on shot of Tiga is he being ridden with just a cordeo (with the halter/reins just sitting)? When I looked at the bigger picture in your website album, that's what it kind of looked like... but wanted to be sure.


Yes in that shot the control was purely with the neck string. At the time he was still a stallion and there were other people in the field with mares so I didn't think it appropriate to take off the halter 'just in case' he was, after all a covering stallion and gave me many foals over the years.


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PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 10:57 pm 
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Quote:
At the time he was still a stallion and there were other people in the field with mares so I didn't think it appropriate to take off the halter 'just in case' he was, after all a covering stallion and gave me many foals over the years.


Ah, that makes a lot of sense.
"Yes, well, your mare will have an awful nice baby!" is probably not what you wanted to have to tell anyone... :lol: :lol:

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~Job 39:19a

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PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2008 6:26 am 
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I am really enjoying this topic! I don't have anything to contribute, except to say that I am a happy little sponge here!

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 12:52 am 

Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2008 2:02 pm
Posts: 1072
Location: UK Worcester/Hereford border
Tiga, I just visited your website and went through your photo's. WOW.
Where in Worcestershire are you, if here at all now? I am between Malvern and Bromyard, hence asking in case I need an Equine Dentist. If you still visit friends and family in the area I would love a lesson on my pony! (not a Lusso, he is a piebald feathery barrel with fat score of worrying 10 million today)
I have just posted on another thread because the UK members are trying to arrange Josepha clinics.
My understanding of dressage is very limited. I simply aim to have walk and halt in place.
I know my pony can piaffe, he is now gelded, but still thinks lady horses in fields along the roadside need him to impress them, my little 13.1 grows to 17hh in hand when walking and dancing for mares. Collection comes naturally to him, if he thinks it suits his purpose. At least he does not hurry past and drag me, just collects and shows off as we reluctantly leave them behind without having his children. (Unless mares are ahead of us, then I might go ski-ing.) Susie xx

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 9:27 am 
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Welcome, Tiga (sorry if I missed you real name :blush: ), and what stunning horses... :love: I love the old european breeds and are blessed with 3 of them myself.

I am also looking forward how you introduce the portugese to NH and perhaps AND. :) :alien:
Sylvia Loch, though, has the portugese riders in very high esteem, so looking forward to your view on them.

Anyway... as Romy already explained the difference between NH and AND... I only want to add this: two horses have been in complete control over me the past 2 or 3 years and that has led to AND as far as my part of the founders goes in the first place. :)

As it happens, we have a ex portuguese citizin staying with us for a month, the alter real Glorioso. I was to teach him... again turns out he is more teaching me. Allthough he has fun and great work out contributing to better collection :)

Warm regards,

Josepha

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 11:36 am 

Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2008 11:43 am
Posts: 209
Location: Herefordshire - UK
I missed this thread but just want to say Hi and welcome :green:

xxx

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