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 Post subject: 3: Lunging + Video
PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 7:21 pm 
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Lunging


Quote:
Hi everyone,
I have a few questions about lunging.
At what time do you start it in your horse's development of exercises? Do you recommend lunging like the parelli's circling game,(stand in one spot while your horse goes around) or like regular lunging(follow your horse around)? I know the parelli's advocate standing in one spot because it releases pressure, "rewarding" the horse and saying that's what I want, the pressure is off.

Thanks for any advice :wink:



Edit by Romy: Here is another thread that might be helpful:
How to teach the coming/sending


Edit by Miriam: Here is are two nice 25-minutes videos by Carolyn Resnick on how to teach a horse to lunge - she uses a halter & whip, but you can use the same technique without them as shejust uses babysteps & bodylanguage to teach the horse:
How to teach a horse to lunge

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 Post subject: Re: Lunging?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 8:10 pm 
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BladeRunner wrote:
Hi everyone,
I have a few questions about lunging.
At what time do you start it in your horse's development of exercises? Do you recommend lunging like the parelli's circling game,(stand in one spot while your horse goes around) or like regular lunging(follow your horse around)? I know the parelli's advocate standing in one spot because it releases pressure, "rewarding" the horse and saying that's what I want, the pressure is off.

Thanks for any advice :wink:



Each is for different purposes.

You probably have noticed that there are two ways expressed here of how to be with your horse. Not that others aren't mentioned as well, but as applies to your question. Basically a performance and conditioning question at that.

One is liberty play (which can take place on a lungeline, at least in form) and the other performance outcome intended.

I'd say your answer lies on you examining what you wish to have happen at any particular moment.

Circle work, ala PNH, fits within a certain paradigm. Has preceding activities leading to it, and has goals and outcomes intended to be done later.

It is a fine method for teaching the horse to attend you closely, and to respond to very subtle clues.

It does not, however, fit very well into the goal of many here: to build from freeing the horse to decide what they wish to do next with their human and building on that.

On the other hand, I'm sure that many horses could be lunged in the PNH fashion and still be invited to and accept more freedom of choice.

I would wager some here have done just that.

Notice that so much of the play going on also is mentioned occasionally here as being done on the line.

Sometimes because of conditions -- no fences, near traffic, etc. Sometimes because the person feels what they wish to convey will happen on the line better.

I'd think that the lunge line might also be a calming influence if that's needed.

And if reduction of pressure is the thing that calms your horse, then becoming quiet and further from the horse might be the tool you use in the moment.

But, and this gives pause for thought out of your comment, could the human moving from actively following the horse around the curve to becoming more quiet closer to the center be that allusive Pressure Reduction and Release AND practitioners seek?

Could it fit with taking those first steps toward more freedom and energy at play?

I wonder what people are seeing that might use this combination tool toward their goals, and those of their horse as well.

The videos shared here I think show just that. Changing by the same horse and human from one form to the other in lunge work.

You make me think.

Donald Redux 1965

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 9:19 pm 
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I must say that I almost don´t lunge my horses anymore. Of course we also run in circles (me being lazy and taking the inner position ;)), but they don´t think that it´s fun to run around me while I just stand in the middle and tell them what to do. So I almost always run with them, except for situations when they just want to run very fast when we come to a meadow after several weeks on a muddy paddock. Then I can´t join them in their high speed canter and they have to run around me alone if they really want to go wild.

It´s very interesting what you wrote about the Parelli way of lunging - that they stand like this in order to avoid pressure - because I never knew why they were doing it like that. I have always tried to base my communication with the horses on body language and mimicry. That means in the case of lunging (in the years when I had still done that), that the horses were starting to walk when I stood a little more staight, started to trot when I tensed a little bit more and walked my small circle with a little bit more suspended steps, cantered when I did some mini canter jumps and stopped or went to a slower gait when I took the tension out of my body. The more I did this, the slower they became, up to something like a fast wincing(?), which made Titum stop from canter and turn around to canter into the other direction when I paired it with a slight turn of my body. So we were communicating all the time while lunging and as soon as I started to stop moving or reduce my movement to a certain degree, Titum did the same. I have never understood why people willingy abandon the great options of mimicry and stand in the middle like a rock...

Besides that, I always had the impression that this was a little impolite towards the horse - he has to run around his human and this human doesn´t even make the effort to attend him - but yes, if you work within a system where attention is closely related to pressure, this makes sense. Thanks for the clarification, Brittany. :)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 10:35 pm 

Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2007 2:28 am
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The Parelli way is to standstill while the horse goes around mindlessly, while AND is asking the horse to concentrate and at the same time you need to concentrate. I feel if we want our horse's to focus then we must focus, too.

I think instead of just asking our horses to go a round in circles, you can be asking for a slower tempo, a faster tempo, you'll be able to ask for a walk and then go up to a trot, but we need to focus just as much as our horses focus to achieve this. Once the transitions are balanced then asking for shoulder-in and many other exercises come into play. Again, our horse has to focus then why shouldn't we?

April

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 12:02 am 
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Thanks to all three of you for your replies. They really made me think.

Romy wrote:
Besides that, I always had the impression that this was a little impolite towards the horse - he has to run around his human and this human doesn´t even make the effort to attend him - but yes, if you work within a system where attention is closely related to pressure, this makes sense. Thanks for the clarification, Brittany.


No, thank YOU Romy, for the clarification! You made me realize that since I don't play with my horses using pressure, I don't need to release pressure. DUH! :roll:
If I do lunge my horse, which I mean lunging in the way of going around in a circle so you can see his whole body and teaching him to move in a collected way. I know that you don't have to lunge to do that, but I have read about people lunging in order to more clearly teach different movements, for instance in the canter. We can't run forever with our horse to teach him something in the canter! 8)
But anyway, if I do lunge my horse, it will be with a cordeo and a line only, and I think April and Romy are right in that you should be actively involved in the circle with your horse and using mimickry.


Donald Redux wrote:
But, and this gives pause for thought out of your comment, could the human moving from actively following the horse around the curve to becoming more quiet closer to the center be that allusive Pressure Reduction and Release AND practitioners seek?

Could it fit with taking those first steps toward more freedom and energy at play?

I wonder what people are seeing that might use this combination tool toward their goals, and those of their horse as well.

The videos shared here I think show just that. Changing by the same horse and human from one form to the other in lunge work.

You make me think.


Now You're making me think! What you wrote above is a lot for me to think about and digest. I'm really thinking about it, and I'm not sure how to reply just yet. I'm reading your words over and over, trying to think about how lunging fits(or if it even does fit) into AND. You're right about the videos. I think I'll go watch some of them. :wink:

I would like to hear others thoughts on this, while I'm trying to figure out what I think about it. (I'm not quite sure what I think yet :roll: :lol: )

Okay, I'm going to do some more reading and watching videos posted here, and I'll come back and post a reply after I get my thoughts together. In the meantime I hope to see some more post about this.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 12:49 am 
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I also have a question on lunging. Why do people lunge horses in the first place?
When I bought Corado, I was at this barn where I was teaching Corado the "Circling Game" (I used to be a Parelli student) and this other girl was "lunging" her horse. Corado was calmly walking around (bored to death probably) but this other girl had a horse who had not been out of his stall for about 5 days, a hot-blooded horse and here she was trying to lunge him at the walk. He was going crazy. So she would use this whip and snap it real loud so he would run and she was so agressive towards her horse. I couldn't stay. Corado did not react to her method but I was sick to my stomach (one month later, I left that barn). I believe the Circling game taught in level 1 is to simply teach the horse a certain language: direction, do not change gait and come to me. It's alot better than the traditional way but... in my opinion, nothing beats liberty!! And the circling game (after alot of practice) can be done at liberty in a round pen. The horse is probably bored to death so is it necessary, I don't know!!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 4:16 am 

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Actually, you can do circles out in the pasture with no round pen. I've done this out with a herd of horses. It just takes time.

Lunging is used to help the horse to bring his inside hindleg to come under him, at least that's what it's suppose to do.

I use a picadero because it's square and the horse has to stand up when he goes into the corner. On a circle the shoulder can fall into the circle so using the corners I feel it really helps the horse to step under himself.

april

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:40 pm 
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Very interesting April. So now I have a few questions for you (and everyone).
:?: by putting his hindleg under him, is this only an exercise he should or is it to prepare him for certain dressage moves (I know nothing about dressage).
:?: Do you prefer working in a square paddock (picadero) or a round pen. I'll tell you why. I asked my boyfriend to build me an indoor round pen (50' diameter) because all I've heard about is a r.p. but if a picadero can be used for all the same reasons as a round pen and it makes him physically more fit, I would probably ask for a picadero.
what is your advice?? (I didn't even know that a picadero existed)
Jocelyne


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 8:53 pm 
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horsefever wrote:
Very interesting April. So now I have a few questions for you (and everyone).
:?: by putting his hindleg under him, is this only an exercise he should or is it to prepare him for certain dressage moves (I know nothing about dressage).
:?: Do you prefer working in a square paddock (picadero) or a round pen. I'll tell you why. I asked my boyfriend to build me an indoor round pen (50' diameter) because all I've heard about is a r.p. but if a picadero can be used for all the same reasons as a round pen and it makes him physically more fit, I would probably ask for a picadero.
what is your advice?? (I didn't even know that a picadero existed)
Jocelyne


Ah, the luxury of choices. Lucky you.

Square. It does things you cannot do in a round pen, and if you really want to take the pressure off it easier in a square pen.

ON the other hand, as long as we are making wishes, I prefer, minimum, about 100 by 60 rectangle with take down round corners.

I'm such a greedy boy.

Donald

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~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 3:27 am 

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horsefever wrote:
Very interesting April. So now I have a few questions for you (and everyone).
:?: by putting his hindleg under him, is this only an exercise he should or is it to prepare him for certain dressage moves (I know nothing about dressage).
:?: Do you prefer working in a square paddock (picadero) or a round pen. I'll tell you why. I asked my boyfriend to build me an indoor round pen (50' diameter) because all I've heard about is a r.p. but if a picadero can be used for all the same reasons as a round pen and it makes him physically more fit, I would probably ask for a picadero.
what is your advice?? (I didn't even know that a picadero existed)
Jocelyne


The picadero actually helps him to collect. I do this at a walk and if he rushes that's fine. At first, I do this totally at liberty. The round pen came into play to get rid of corners. The cowboys felt the horse would get stuck in the corner. Yes, they do turn into the corner, but lay off the pressure and allow them to find their way around the corner.

The other reason why they will turn into the corner is because they aren't with you yet. This is fine, take mental notes, it's no big deal. It will improve as long as you respect this.

What I really like about the picadero is that once they are finally wanting to be with you, is that, they will step into the corner and actually bend. They have to bring that inside leg under themselves otherwise, they will fall down. They have to stand up going through it. They are doing this, not us making them do this. Allow the corner to do the training. When they come out of the corner, then it's a straight line. This gives the muscles a relaxing time. The muscles need this time.

A horse that isn't use to using their muscles this way, is very very hard. I only ask for about 3 times and then change direction, 3 more times, and then it's done. You don't need to do a lot. Like I stated this is not an easy exercise. Think of yourself, doing palates or stretches for the very first time.

The round pen does absolutely nothing for them except that they can go round and round. The horses have a false bend.

What I would do is go out and walk and trot, just yourself, around the round pen. See how your body bends and how it is used. Where are you legs? Where is your ribcage? Where is your shoulder and is it easy to drop the shoulder into the circle and still move around. Do this at the walk and trot. Just yourself not your horse.

Then you can take a string and make a nice 30-35 x30-35 square pen and do the same thing. Feel how your body goes into the corner and how you have to stand up to make it through and then you'll come out straight. Again, how easy is it to drop your shoulder when you're in the corner? What muscles are you having to use?

I only do picadero work a couple of times a week, then we might do arena work, play, or go for a walk out in the country or just take a walk around the pasture. I mix things up so not to be boring. This isn't about drilling the horse, but preparing the horse and get to know your horse so you're relationship will grow and his own abilities will grow.

If we can teach the horse how to collect, this will benefit his health. It makes him stronger and he'll be able to carry you in a more comfortable way. Also, this will stregthen his back and actually his whole body.

The size of the picadero is important. You don't want it too small nor too big. It also depends on the size of your horse and his own abilities. I had retrained Racehorses and I made the picadero 40 x40 (this is in feet). I tried the smaller 30 x30 but because their muscles have been used differently, I needed to give them more room and not feel crunched in it. As they changed, then picadero size changed to help them further their training. I wouldn't go any smaller than 30x30.

Go with what feels right to you at the time, but I would switch over to a square even if your horse gets stuck in the corner, this is fine and allow them the time to think things over. Take mental notes, that this is where your relationship is right now...no big deal. As long as, you respect your horses opinion and acknowledge him everything is going to turn out okay.

Make it fun being in the picadero. The horse I'm working with right now, will go right under the lines and hang out in it. He'd look at me saying aren't you coming. I have disappointed him, because sometimes we wouldn't do picadero exercises, but we'd do other things and he would cheer up.

I am hoping to be able to have videos done this weekend of me and Shhzzar in the picadero.

April

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 10:49 am 

Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:12 pm
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Location: Utrecht, The Netherlands
Hi,

I've just learned to lunge in the Chris Irwin way.
I don't know if you know him?

Basically what he says about lunging is that you have a center(your bellybutton) and that should never point to the horse's head.

So, if you lunge that way, you'll get a very relaxed horse(when you do it correct), I personally think it's a nice way to lunge your horse because it's about relaxation and body language.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 11:26 am 
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Interesting topic!

I do lunge the pony's quite often, in order to ask them to step under with their inner hindleg and bend the body on the circle. We always do one to ten small circles whenever we train, so I guess in total we lunge about two minutes. 8) Also making a circle is a good way to start stepping under, and then leave the circle in a shoulder-in. Our circles aren't that circular actually and they change shapes with every round we do; bigger, smaller, stepping more under, becoming more collected or extending more.

As Donald wrote: as you don't up the pressure when lunging in this way, you don't need to release that pressure either so there's no need to stand still. Most of the time I walk a small circle in the middle myself, or moving in the way I want the ponies to mimick (like collected canter, or collected trot).

By the way; I also use the ideas of Chris Irwin on the human bodylanguage when lunging, simply because I see the ponies (especially Sjors) responding immediately when I walk towards their head instead of shoulder or hindquarters. I'm not so sure about his belly-button theory. I guess it's more a case of very normal body-posture reading: every animal and human knows that a human will walk to where his bellybutton/chest/rump is pointing at, and will avoid collision by making space with their own body. Also, when you stand straight and look forwards, you are ready to move forwards, which sends out a signal to the rest of your environment to clear the path in front of you (if there's a horses'head in the way, it will turn away from you). And if you sag a bit in your back, stand a bit in a slouched posture looking at the ground, it's clear to everybody that you are not going to move soon, and if you are, it will probably be backwards. So if there's a horse standing in front of you, he will actually turn his head towards you because you are making room for him. At least that's how I've integrated it in our training/lunging sessions!


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 4:29 pm 
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Miriam wrote:
I do lunge the pony's quite often, in order to ask them to step under with their inner hindleg and bend the body on the circle.


This is where my question originated from! I knew I had seen somewhere that you lunge your horses, so I asked:
Quote:
At what time do you start it in your horse's development of exercises?


I also asked whether or not you should do it like Parelli, but I got my answer from Donald and April.

I think it is a good idea to lunge for stepping under with the hindleg and bending the body, so when would be the best time to start this type of lunging?

Thanks!

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Brittany



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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 4:45 pm 
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BladeRunner wrote:
I think it is a good idea to lunge for stepping under with the hindleg and bending the body, so when would be the best time to start this type of lunging?


As soon as your horse understands how to step under in hand (with you next to him, with cordeo or at liberty) which you teach him on a small circle. Because then you can ask him to enlarge the circle by asking him to step sideways away from you with his hindleg stepping under. First you ask him to only enlarge the circle with a meter, then more and more. :)


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 6:04 pm 
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Thanks Miriam!

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Brittany



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 6:13 pm 
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Miriam wrote:
BladeRunner wrote:
I think it is a good idea to lunge for stepping under with the hindleg and bending the body, so when would be the best time to start this type of lunging?


As soon as your horse understands how to step under in hand (with you next to him, with cordeo or at liberty) which you teach him on a small circle. Because then you can ask him to enlarge the circle by asking him to step sideways away from you with his hindleg stepping under. First you ask him to only enlarge the circle with a meter, then more and more. :)


Miriam, with your own and others many contributions to the folders "Research Material," and "Groundwork," as well as other folders, anyone with a question such as this would do well to take a quick look.

The AND forum's search engine can deliver posts and threads that have gone into considerable depth on the subject.

This subject in particular has had some very good coverage. Bladerunner might benifit by a quick review of the thread at:

http://www.artofnaturaldressage.com/vie ... light=step

I came across this when I was searching for the source (I believe it was you -- but don't hold me to it -- that provided it) of the precise method of working with the horse in hand to execute the "step under."

I haven't as yet located it but possibly you'll remember. The trainer cited was female. The action described, roughly paraphrased, was:

Leading the horse in an energetic walk (it might have been trot) bring the horse to a halt and immediately cue for a single step away of the hind quarters. The nearest hind hoof should move in front of the grounded outer hoof.

Please edit any errors in my understanding. The source cited did a wonderful job of describing this movement.

It was the first of lateral movements I used to help Dakota begin to supple, and strengthen in preparation for collection.

May I suggest that any newcomers here interested in various training aspects do a read of those folders.

There is found a growing treasury of information, references, citations, explanations, and clarifying discussions of great value.


Donald Redux

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 6:24 pm 
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Hi Donald,
I am very sorry that I wasted space on AND by posting this thread. I have no idea why I didn't think to use the search engine! :oops: I will research thoroughly next time I have a question.

Thanks to all who gave me such great answers! Romy, you were the first to make me realize that I don't need to stand still while lunging, because I don't work with escalating pressure, so thanks for that revelation!

Oh, and thanks to Donald for the "Duh, use the search engine!" :lol: :lol:

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Brittany



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 7:28 pm 
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BladeRunner wrote:
Hi Donald,
I am very sorry that I wasted space on AND by posting this thread. I have no idea why I didn't think to use the search engine! :oops: I will research thoroughly next time I have a question.

Thanks to all who gave me such great answers! Romy, you were the first to make me realize that I don't need to stand still while lunging, because I don't work with escalating pressure, so thanks for that revelation!

Oh, and thanks to Donald for the "Duh, use the search engine!" :lol: :lol:


Oh, Dear ME! No no no!

There is no 'better' way. Just another way. Please do both, and start where you are.

You might have had a question triggered by reading someone's commentary, and want to engage right then. That IS the way to proceed if that is what you feel inspired to do.

The teacher is NOT the learner. YOU are the learner and thus your own teacher.

Go with your inspiration, not my silly "teacherliness."

One may start anywhere. With the other horseperson, with written resources, and with the horse him or herself.

There is no RIGHT way.

Your intent drives how and what you learn. NOT the other way around.

"How and what," should never be creating intent.

That is the tool of authoritarianism. Ugh!

(Nothing more embarrassing to a dedicated teacher than to have been caught clumsily 'teaching,' by correcting, again ... shame on me).

:oops:


Donald Redux 1965

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Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 7:45 pm 
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It's okay! :D I really think that's good advice, to search first and then if I still have questions, to ask them. However, like you said, if I read something that triggers a question I may post it right away if I am inspired to do so.
:wink:

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 9:21 pm 
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Donald Redux wrote:
I came across this when I was searching for the source (I believe it was you -- but don't hold me to it -- that provided it) of the precise method of working with the horse in hand to execute the "step under."


Hi Donald,

I'm not sure exactly if I found you the right spot, but the methods to teach your horse to step under, are over here:
http://www.artofnaturaldressage.com/viewtopic.php?t=327
Maybe the quote you needed is over there too?

About this topic: I actually thought about turning it into a sticky, as we haven't covered lunging in a sticky yet! :D I'll write a formal entry later, but for now just the stickyness will do. ;)

And it's true that a lot of questions have already been asked in the past. It would probably be good if members started using the search engine more, but on the other hand the questions can lead to new exercises (like this topic 8) ), so don't feel too bad about it!


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 9:29 pm 
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Miriam wrote:
...

Hi Donald,

I'm not sure exactly if I found you the right spot, but the methods to teach your horse to step under, are over here:
http://www.artofnaturaldressage.com/viewtopic.php?t=327
Maybe the quote you needed is over there too?

About this topic: I actually thought about turning it into a sticky, as we haven't covered lunging in a sticky yet! :D I'll write a formal entry later, but for now just the stickyness will do. ;)

And it's true that a lot of questions have already been asked in the past. It would probably be good if members started using the search engine more, but on the other hand the questions can lead to new exercises (like this topic 8) ), so don't feel too bad about it!


Yes, that is the very thing I was looking for at:

http://www.artofnaturaldressage.com/viewtopic.php?t=327


I wrote with poor clarity. I meant to say that what has been contributed before is yet another resource. And to look their TOO.

As a typical external processor (means I babble a lot) I'm appreciative of the manner in which give and take on an issue helps explore it and helps discover more about it.

Donald

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Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 10:09 pm 
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Very good idea to turn this into a sticky Miriam! I will be looking forward to reading the formal entry.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 11:19 pm 
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Quote:
I would like to hear others thoughts on this, while I'm trying to figure out what I think about it. (I'm not quite sure what I think yet :roll: :lol: )


Wow! Great thread! Just shows that there are soooo many ways to lunge and just as many reason to lunge or not to lunge, eh??

Anyway, I lunge with a target, clicker trained so it is not mindless as I am always looking for some little piece that I like, and so click and treat a lot. I have been lunging with the Target low, so Lucy moves with her head stretched down long and low, walk, trot, and a little canter. Lucy doesn't self exercise so one of the main reasons I target lunge is for fitness, and it's a way to do it without pressure.

Now since I have been here at AND, I am shapng a new cue with the Target (touch her chest) to have her lift her head and flex a bit, usually stepping under at the same time. I also do this when I'm playing with the Tiger, and I get more animation there. So in between jumping around (as much as Lucy jumps around <G>), I'll do some trotting circles trying to get some flexion and a rounder back, getting more push from the rear.

Here's a video from last week using the Target (not the Tiger):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQV8EeGKwvs

I always done things different so no reason to quit now <G>!!!!

Brenda


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 2:38 am 
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Great way to lunge Brenda! I'll definitely try that way too! That way looks so fun for the horse.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 1:43 am 
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BladeRunner wrote:
Great way to lunge Brenda! I'll definitely try that way too! That way looks so fun for the horse.


Yes! It certainly is! No pressure for sure! Lucy loves it! And if Blade already loves his Tiger, you could easily transition to this type of lunging!

Poor Lucy is my first clicker horse, and now my first AND horse so she is my 'guinea pig' with all these 'new' ways of doing things! But she gets LOTS of treats so I 'think' she doesn't mind!

I'm sure with a more talented, physically lighter horse, you could get more or better 'stuff' from it! I also use barrels a lot for practicing bending, stepping under, etc. and it keeps things more interesting too!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bF_L4-nKeVo

Also here is another video from last year working with Lucy on a long lead, some mimicing?, so not quite lunging but maybe a good transition from close work on the ground?? I like moving with the horse. Of course you could use a cordeo(instead of a halter) and a line?? Now that I am learning about AND, I am planning to go that route as soon as it stops SNOWING!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWNHTqgjAcQ

Enjoy! Brenda


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 2:28 am 
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I think all three ways of lunging (standing still [Parelli], moving with the horse [Hempfling], and target/tiger) have their benefits.

I do believe the standing-still method of lunging teaches the horse great persistence. I don't think it necessarily has to be taught through pressure (as in, "keep going because I say so!") but can simply be the horse learning to continue performing for a period of time before being rewarded; ie, helping them move away from instant gratification. When a horse can continue around you without help, it seems that they have learned a lot of responsibility and this can transfer over into other exercises.

When you move with the horse, there is a huge potential for influencing his movement and carriage, as you are now a dynamic part of his environment. When I start lunging Caspian in this way, he instantly tunes in to me and focuses intently, mimicking my movements in a way he doesn't necessarily do when I'm leading. Although certainly movements and improvements in gait/carriage can be taught without lunging, for example, in running beside the horse, or in free play, it seems that lunging facilitates that learning -- the horse doesn't have to be wondering where you're going or what's happening next, but can concentrate on the fact that you're consistently staying in a consistent circle doing consistent things. (Not to mention it's less work for you! :) )

And then the "tiger lunging" provides great incentive for movement! It is also a great way to transition from play to lunging without the horse realizing it.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 4:17 am 
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Brenda wrote:
And if Blade already loves his Tiger, you could easily transition to this type of lunging!


Well he certainly loves his Tiger!! So I will try this the next time I get to play with him (hopefully soon, the weather is supposed to get warmer this week). I'll let you know how it goes.

Quote:
Poor Lucy is my first clicker horse, and now my first AND horse so she is my 'guinea pig' with all these 'new' ways of doing things! But she gets LOTS of treats so I 'think' she doesn't mind!


That's how it is with Blade, poor, poor boy. :wink:
He is my first horse, so besides for just trying to learn how to Take Care of a horse, I have tried Parelli, NHE, Clicker Training, and now AND. I still do clicker training of course! :wink:
Now that we do Clicker Training & AND,I can see that Blade really enjoys our time together. I am so thankful to have such a wonderful horse.

We are all so blessed to have horses in our lives.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 10:38 am 
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Makana wrote:
I think all three ways of lunging (standing still [Parelli], moving with the horse [Hempfling], and target/tiger) have their benefits.


This is very true. Every method can only be evaluated in relation to its goals. And if you want to take the social or interdependent component out of your work to a certain extend and have the horse work on his own without your involvement, then standing still and letting the horse run around you might be just the best choice.

So I can´t say that the method is wrong or bad, only that it doesn´t fit to my goals and training ideas, which emphasize interaction and communication a lot. I don´t want a rather autistic performance, but a constant conversation during our training. And probably I am also a little bit biased after all the conversational therapy lessons and communication training during my studies... just try how it feels to talk to someone who is looking out of the window all the time. ;)


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 10:57 pm 
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:lol: :cry: :lol: :cry:

I don't know whether to laugh or cry!

AND has a search engine? RATS! I didn't notice that! I wouldn't have had ask a bunch of maybe unneccessary questions!

There's reasons for lunging horses? Oh! :shock:

I've only ever known it for "taking the edge off" an oatsy horse! RATS!

I thought you could only call it lunging if you were using the "proper" equipment in a "proper" arena i.e. caveson, lunge whip, lunge line, 20m round area, etc. Sigh!

Well, that'll teach me to jump in the deep end! Again!

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 1:40 am 
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Glen Grobler wrote:
:lol: :cry: :lol: :cry:

I don't know whether to laugh or cry!

AND has a search engine? RATS! I didn't notice that! I wouldn't have had ask a bunch of maybe unneccessary questions!

There's reasons for lunging horses? Oh! :shock:

I've only ever known it for "taking the edge off" an oatsy horse! RATS!

I thought you could only call it lunging if you were using the "proper" equipment in a "proper" arena i.e. caveson, lunge whip, lunge line, 20m round area, etc. Sigh!

Well, that'll teach me to jump in the deep end! Again!


I usually refer to it as 'circle' work, just to clarify that I don't use it to take the edge off a horse.

A couple of circles is usually all I'll do to wake the horse up, not wear him down. Like some easy movement to prepare for more strenuous exercise.

I do sometime, quite deliberately do Volte work, for a particular purpose. Dakota was, for instance, very left sided. Stiff but strong on the left, loose and flabby and weak on the right side.

He looked like he had been hit in the ribs by a truck.

So I did quite a bit of work on the right hand, that is stretching the left side and encouraging the right side to tighten up.

He's improved a little I'd say.

But his canter is onesided. Smoother on the left lead. A horror on the right.

Neither is that good really, after a couple of months of no work.

Circles can help with collection if done square up as was being discussed here recently about pecador.

Square circles rather than round ones.

We must seem strange to the non horse people.

We want our horses to go "straight" on a curved track, and when they look at us doing it, we have the horse's body curved to the arc of the track.

And we circle our horses into squares.

And we can't seem to land on one language to discuss Dressage. Not even horses in general, or riding them.

Lope - canter. Chestnut - Sorrel. Black horses that because they have a little brown on the underside are called "Brown," while a white horse with a few little brown specs is called a Fleabitten GREY.

We back our horses, not by making them go backwards, but by getting on top of them.

Yet we still say 'back' when we mean we back them up. "Ask your horse to back please."

We regular break our own rules, by calling a young horse of either sex a colt, when we know perfectly well that means a male while filly means a young female.

Heck we don't even use mare and horse correctly, the one being male, the other female.

I'm forever calling mares horses.

And the biggest hoax we pull on the non-horse set is this one:

You can take a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

Sure you can. Just don't give him water for awhile. And then take him to water. You'll have trouble making him NOT drink.

We are the funniest people, we are.

I think there is an odor given off by horses that is in fact an intoxicant that addles our brains, and makes us do the silliest things.

And apparently it takes years and years to wear off, and if you then come in contact again, you can be hooked in a few minutes.

Blasted horses anyway.

Now I'm shopping for a horse box (trailer to you Americans), I'm angling to get some tougher horses to train than Dakota (and he broke someone's back) so you KNOW I'm out of my head with Horse Perfume. I even hang my riding clothes in my bedroom.

I think it makes me sleep better.

:roll: :wink: :lol:


Donald Redux, addict and quite happy with it.

Image

.................................

If you are curious, you can see my photo and video album at -

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff51/donald_redux/

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 2:37 am 
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Quote:
Square circles rather than round ones


They're called squircles where I came from ... :lol:

Quote:
And we circle our horses into squares.


This is perfectly reasonable: its "migration mentality" - we had our ox-wagons and you had your gold-rushes and "Go West, young man" and it became a genetic memory ...

Quote:
And we can't seem to land on one language to discuss Dressage. Not even horses in general, or riding them.


I still think a Saddle-seat animated walk is a trot ...

I recently saw a list about why horses outperform husbands which included:
You don't have to nag them to mow the lawn.
They eat what you serve them - quietly.
You control them with your knees.
You can dictate what they will do with that paunch.
They don't bring drinking buddies home at 2am.
They don't care who controls the TV remote.
They change their shoes when you say they need to.
They like eating vegetables.
They smell good all the time.

And - you know you're horse-mad when you cluck to your car on the uphills!

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 6:13 am 
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Quote:
I do sometime, quite deliberately do Volte work, for a particular purpose. Dakota was, for instance, very left sided. Stiff but strong on the left, loose and flabby and weak on the right side.

He looked like he had been hit in the ribs by a truck.

So I did quite a bit of work on the right hand, that is stretching the left side and encouraging the right side to tighten up.


Yes! Good point! Lucy was one-sided too and with the 'lunging', playing with barrels, and teaching her to 'spin', she's much better...now if I can teach her to spin at the canter, that would really help! Maybe I can with the Tiger game????

Brenda


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 7:02 am 
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Brenda wrote:
Quote:
I do sometime, quite deliberately do Volte work, for a particular purpose. Dakota was, for instance, very left sided. Stiff but strong on the left, loose and flabby and weak on the right side.

He looked like he had been hit in the ribs by a truck.

So I did quite a bit of work on the right hand, that is stretching the left side and encouraging the right side to tighten up.


Yes! Good point! Lucy was one-sided too and with the 'lunging', playing with barrels, and teaching her to 'spin', she's much better...now if I can teach her to spin at the canter, that would really help! Maybe I can with the Tiger game????

Brenda


Oooo, loved the book. When will it come out in video, please?

:lol:

Donald

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 Post subject: Re: 3: Lunging
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 11:09 am 

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Ted had just learnt free lunging with the clicker- I thought I'd try it as when I lunge with a lunge line he will constantly pull at it and then runs off with it. I dont lunge very often anyway, but when I do from now on, Ill be doing it like this! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6_i8ZOQCAw

This was our 3rd attempt in 3 days and he seems to enjoy it. It was a bit muddy so he was slipping a little. I was really impressed with him, all I was expecting was maybe one or two circles in walk.


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 Post subject: Re: 3: Lunging
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 1:26 pm 

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I just love this thread and forum and ALL the people here!!! :D
This is exactly where I am presently and would you just know, here comes the topic...... :funny:

Does anyone want to give their advice on a halt when circling. I am not talking about disengaging the hind end and the horse coming in or standing facing you, I am looking for a nice relaxed halt staying on the circle.

Would love to know what you do and how/why?

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 Post subject: Re: 3: Lunging
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 1:42 pm 

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Hi Annette, I haven't yet tried it with Honey on a circle/lunge however, I have been playing in the field with him trotting and have begun to use the cue that KFH explains where you take the last step before stopping and put more energy into it. For me, this results in a definitive 'stomp' when I stop, and Honey immediately stops as well. As long as I stand still, he stands still.

KFH states that the benefits of stopping like this are that the horse brings his hind legs under him to stop, and you are much more likely to get a square stop. So far with us, this has proven to be true.

Hope this helps! And let me know if you try it and how it goes.

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 Post subject: Re: 3: Lunging
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 1:47 pm 
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Wow Mightyboosh, I love your video (and the music ;) even though it's abit rock'n'roll for me). It goes well with this video.
You're right, why use a lunge line when you don't have to.
I may be wrong (I am not a pro at all but people have already told me this about Corado). Shouldn't his head be pointing in the circle? If not (Corado's case), he had some kind of tension in the neck which required some massage and alot of free movement (like you're doing).
Great video, lots of fun to watch.
Jocelyne

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 Post subject: Re: 3: Lunging
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 7:34 pm 
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horsefever wrote:
Shouldn't his head be pointing in the circle? If not (Corado's case), he had some kind of tension in the neck which required some massage and alot of free movement (like you're doing).


...or stepping under on the circle - a description can be found here. :smile:

I usually combine this with learning that a touch at the girth area (with the fingertips of my outside (horse-side) hand means that the horse should turn his nose to the inside. Works quite well. I have a tiny little bit of this in a video of Summy in the snow (1:05-1:35).


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 Post subject: Re: 3: Lunging
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 9:44 am 

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horsefever wrote:
Wow Mightyboosh, I love your video (and the music ;) even though it's abit rock'n'roll for me). It goes well with this video.
You're right, why use a lunge line when you don't have to.
I may be wrong (I am not a pro at all but people have already told me this about Corado). Shouldn't his head be pointing in the circle? If not (Corado's case), he had some kind of tension in the neck which required some massage and alot of free movement (like you're doing).
Great video, lots of fun to watch.
Jocelyne


I'll read up on this, I know with a lunge line he pulls on it constantly then runs off with it :ieks: I havent actually studied how he was moving from that video as it was a bit slippery we were on a hill and I'm just chuffed he was doing it! But I will try and video him on a flatter drier place (if it ever dries up!) and see how he's going. :thumleft:


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 Post subject: Re: 3: Lunging
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 12:05 pm 

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Location: Western Cape, South Africa
Thank you Shannon. I will play with that. If I stop while walking at liberty or a lead line, he stops immediately but on a circle I have not found a good stopping cue. It might be just that he is further away from me as he does like being right next to me. Perhaps I can exaggerate that last step a little more. Will let you know. I have taken today and tomorrow off from horses, I needed a break!

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 Post subject: Re: 3: Lunging
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 5:38 pm 
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Morgan wrote:
Thank you Shannon. I will play with that. If I stop while walking at liberty or a lead line, he stops immediately but on a circle I have not found a good stopping cue. It might be just that he is further away from me as he does like being right next to me. Perhaps I can exaggerate that last step a little more. Will let you know. I have taken today and tomorrow off from horses, I needed a break!


Often the horse has given us clues (as Josepha has said so often, listen to the horse) about a behavior we'd like to get from them.

Two years ago I started working a very flighty Morgan gelding and since I had no enclosure worked on a lunge line. One of the things I wanted from him was an instant stop "when things go wrong," as with him had so often happened, throwing riders pretty badly, or bolting and running.

During the first part of his training when I was charging the clicker it was quite obvious he got it and would stop whatever he was doing, including even trotting away from me, if he heard the sound of the clicker.

Since I did not want this energetic (but good humored boy) to start mugging or charging for treats I went immediately to him when I clicked. He got to stand still for his treat. Worked fine.

You probably can figure out where this is going.

Soon he was playing "statue," with me. I cued by throwing the lead line down, or even the stick and line, or a piece of rope I might be carrying, anything. Anything hitting the ground meant to stop and wait for his treat.

Paid off big time when the old saddle I was using for training blew out the offside cinch billet and it peeled off over his rump. He literally slide to a stop, and stood facing foward on the circle expectantly waiting (even though he was a bit excited) for his treat.

The ideal is to remove the click eventually and have the cue itself be the bridging signal. If I say whoa, I say whoa slow. People that watch me can't figure out how a rider or handler saying whoa slow gets sliding stops from a horse, but that's the way it works.

If the horse is turning toward you for his treat when he halts on the circle, go too him immediately so he gets the idea that he doesn't have to move his feet at all. Just stand and wait. It's a good habit to give treats, at first, immediately for this very reason. Later you can begin, especially when treating a well established behavior, to stretch the time out, and should.

You can also reposition him on the circle just before actually giving him the treat reward. Whatever that might be. Praise, food, or scritches.

Donald

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 Post subject: Re: 3: Lunging
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 10:12 pm 

Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 9:58 pm
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Location: Western Cape, South Africa
Donald that was more or less what I was doing but I didn't continue with it. I thought about what I would do with my dog......it's a little similar!!!! :funny:
It is very clear the way you have written it. Thank you :f:
I guess the answer is to teach the cue while using the clicker and getting to him super quick with the treat?
Brilliant....... :D

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 Post subject: Re: 3: Lunging
PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2009 7:41 pm 

Joined: Sun Jul 12, 2009 10:39 pm
Posts: 15
Mightyboosh wrote:
horsefever wrote:
Wow Mightyboosh, I love your video (and the music ;) even though it's abit rock'n'roll for me). It goes well with this video.
You're right, why use a lunge line when you don't have to.
I may be wrong (I am not a pro at all but people have already told me this about Corado). Shouldn't his head be pointing in the circle? If not (Corado's case), he had some kind of tension in the neck which required some massage and alot of free movement (like you're doing).
Great video, lots of fun to watch.
Jocelyne


Thanks everyone i read the "stepping under on a circle" post and it makes sense, so I gave it a go with Ted today, got him doing in nicely in walk on a (very small) circle at liberty, but we seem to lose it on a bigger circle. Once he was stepping under with his inside hind leg, his head went in the right direction -pointing in the circle. I'll be working on this to get a bigger circle and will do another video to compare and see if we're doing it right!


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