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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 1:31 am 
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Karen wrote:
I got the chance to email privately with Brenda, who did the videos with her mare "Lucy" where I learned to lunge using the tiger as the target. Brenda coined a new name for this more "sedate" and controlled form of Tiger chasing...she called it "Stalk the Tiger". :D :D :D


Oooo...most excellent naming.

Karen wrote:
I have invited her to join us here...I hope she does soon. She is delightful!


I hope she will. I look forward to meeting her. And a training diary from her.

Donald Redux

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 2:47 pm 

Joined: Mon Oct 22, 2007 2:26 pm
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First 2 Chase the tiger videos are removed and new links are here: :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qe5CwweChzM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qtZFqAVssQ

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 8:09 pm 
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today my little pony has not case the tiger but case the dog :D He was getting his meal after our ride in the woods. The dog was steeling his food, and he did not like it..get very angry and run to the dog.. the pony was free...and he bite him in the neck..the dogs cry and run away..the pony went back to eat again..jee i was not happy about that, but after all the dog was not wounded. I hope he had learn from it.
My little one is not afraid of dogs... :wink:


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 6:11 pm 
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Hello Inge:

that's exactly what someone told me could happen if I taught my horse this game. I am hesitant since I'm not at all sure that my horses won't do just that.

Is your pony a dominant pony by nature? In general, is he confident? In the past, before showing this game, did he ever show a sign that he was able to attack?

I was even told that a horse, once he learns this game, can even attack small children? do you think your pony could also attack children?

I would be very interested in learning on this subject.

Jocelyne


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 9:06 pm 
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horsefever wrote:
Hello Inge:

that's exactly what someone told me could happen if I taught my horse this game. I am hesitant since I'm not at all sure that my horses won't do just that.

i do not think that is the problem :-)it is not the game but there is more, there are some resons why a horse do this kind of behavor.

Quote:
Is your pony a dominant pony by nature? In general, is he confident?

nope he is the lowest in rang, very friendly, wanted to listen, do his best, but is very clear when he thinks you tread him unfair, when a child sit on his back on the wrong position he will jump the child of, on a mild way :-)When the child is doing it wright he is o.k, but when the child pulling the reins to heavy, he turns in the opposit direction.
(riding bitless btw)

Quote:
In the past, before showing this game, did he ever show a sign that he was able to attack?

i did have play the game for one time, just wanted to know what he would do..he did attac the dog before i had play the game, but have never bite him before he did not get the chance because of me.
i protected the dog to steel from the food of the horse. Now i was not at the right place at the right moment.

Quote:
I was even told that a horse, once he learns this game, can even attack small children? do you think your pony could also attack children?

NEVER he sould attack a child...as i said before the horse have resons to attac. The same as in the wild, protect a little one or things like that.
My pony is very friendly to children, you can leave them alone and they can play without any problems.
But not with his own food and a dog who wanted to steal from him. A child can take his food away, pick up the feed box. and he does nothing. just look what are you doing? and search for the rest he left on the ground. When the child put the feed box back he will eat further.
give no problems at all.


Quote:
I would be very interested in learning on this subject.

Jocelyne


i have play the game for ones, he new the game of touch a spooky thing with his nose and get a reward.
And from that position i have play the game.
Not in a fast way but a kind of leading rope, he must follow the tiger (walk) and go over a bearn and along a few pawns. And i have never done it later again, play some other games and driving...
he likes the last one, go in to the woods and run fast :-) he can do trails of 25 km. So that is the main thing we do.

I think you can play the game with no problems but use your mind. Think why you wanted to play this game. What is your goal, what do you wanna reach?


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 9:14 pm 
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Jocelyn, I agree with Inge (very well said!). A horse must have a reason to attack. Playing a wild game is not the same as an attack. But you do have to keep your wits about when you start to play wild games with a horse, just so you stay safe from an accidental hit with a horse's body part (head, hoof, whatever).

I think above all, you need to find your sense of confidence with horses and begin from that place, rather than a place of fear or mistrust. That is, you have to have the sense that you are safe, otherwise, I wouldn't try the really wild games, but the "stalking the tiger" is calmer and safer if you are not sure about "chasing the tiger".


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 9:30 pm 
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hi karen..thanks..:-)english is difficult for me..
and yes i think you have to start slowly..
when you have a good harmony with your horse you can play it faster. But you do not have to play it fast...slowly is good too :-)
i prefer slowly i have a reason to play this kind of game, yes it is funny for both of us but there is also some training isue. My pony do not like to work in the piste and i try to find out some nice games so he does his excercising and have some fun too.
He hates just running rounds etc. So i make it nice for us, he likes also jumping now i can train him to jump after the tiger :-) then i do not need a rope, who always stuck behind.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 9:31 pm 
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forgot to say i am not handy enough...hahahaha


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 4:06 am 
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Quote:
that's exactly what someone told me could happen if I taught my horse this game. I am hesitant since I'm not at all sure that my horses won't do just that.


Hi Jocelyne,
I read your concerns on this some time ago, and it's just so far from my experience and understanding of horse behaviour and the way that they relate to us, that I had trouble formulating a reply.

I shall try again..

How does your horse live? Is he in a herd with other horses? If he is, do you watch them? Have you ever had opportunity to spend time watching a herd of horses living together? If yes, then you've probably seen the more playful members of the herd playing their own versions of chase the tiger, and many other "mock agression" games as well.

As I write, our three year old gelding, and our twelve year old Tb mare are up on the top of the hill, taking turns to grab each other by the back of the neck in the "kill" position, shake (albeit gently) and then stand up on their back legs and wave their front hooves in each other's faces.

Despite the apparent ferociousness of the scene, even from this distance, it's appararent to see that this is a MOCK fight, and that both of them are equally delighted, glowing, bursting with joy at their game.

Now Harlequin, the youngster, is trying to instigate a Chase the Tiger...He's come in from behind, standing back as far as he can, and is snaking out his neck and nipping her on the hocks. Go on old girl, RUN for me.

Rosie, our ferocious and bad tempered TB mare, who CAN and HAS kicked to connect when the situation calls for it (in her view) has no intention of running right now.. is lowering her head, backing up into him, and doing funny little double barrelled kicks, balancing all her weight on her front legs like a circus acrobat, and UP, and UP and UP.. pulling her hind legs in under her, so that although her rump is right under his chin, and her ears are flat back and looking mean as a horse out of hell, her hind hooves are just jabbing the air, three inches in front of his chest in rythm as she inches back toward himl. It's a miracle of choreographed martial arts.

Rosie will NOT be his Tiger... beneath her dignity. But now, as he comes round to bite her on the neck again, she's happy to stand on her hind legs, towering in the air, nose to nose with the youngster in her favourite pose again.

Here comes the 18 month old Shetland pony filly... surely not safe with these two clashing giants..
She sneaks in with head snaking side to side, and nips Harlequin on his elbow.. and OFF.. cantering to the other side of the paddock.YES! A new game is on, and Harlequin wheels around to chase her in a beautiful collected canter.. almost Rolkur :lol: (but without the grimace :cry: ) to travel with his nose stuck on her rump, around,flying changes to left and right, change of pace, extended trot, then collected canter again, then gallop, then spin and stop, and Miro dives under his chest and bites his elbow again.

Harlequin drops to one knee and pushes (a trick he learned from playfighting with our cow when the two of them were yearlings.) Miro's gone, round behind, he spins grabs her by the neck for the KILL.. she spins and BANG BANG BANG collects him with three in a row double barreled kicks to the chest.. he doesn't even wince. He's delighted. He nips her on the shoulder and the two of them take off at a gallop behind the hill where I can't see them.

On this side of the hill, our dogs have become excited by the game, thinking of joining in.. one or two of the younger less "trained" ones begin to bark and prance at the other quietly grazing horses. But look out.. here comes the filly's mum, 11 hands of motherly Shetland fury, bearing down on the dogs at the charge trot, head low and snaking from side to side like a protective stallion. The dogs know this look, they retreat and bahave.

The chickens are scratching around in the fresh horse manure. Sunrise, feeling enthused by Harlequin's shenanigans, but too lazy to join in with all the running around, has a little squeal and buck and prances through the flock in war horse style, sending chickens flying and squawking. She trots off proudly to the top of her hill to celebrate her victory over feathered things, and the chickens regroup and go back to their feast.

This is a normal morning scene in our herd.
And on any given day you can see dogs, chickens, piglets, ducks, geese, cats and kids wandering around among free horses.

CHase the Tiger is not a game we TEACH THE HORSES.
This is a game we have LEARNT from observing the horses. I assure you, even if your horse has never showed it to you, he knows this game. It's in his blood and his bones. Perhaps in his domestic environment, he's never practiced it, and luckily, because of his humans care, he will never need to use it. Perhaps, if he's never had the opportunity to role play this game during his developmental stages, he wouldn't even know now how to respond, if he ever was faced with a dangerous situation, with a dog or mountain lion threatening his safety.

Our dogs roam around our horse's legs.. nosing through droppings, playing chase, chewing hoof trimmings while I work.. the horses never act INAPROPRIATELY with them. The young dogs get chased off if they get too loud and playful, but only with as much force as neccessary.

But one day out riding, a really dangerous event occured. Some people near us had a Caucasian Ovtcharker.. they grow as big a bear and can quite easily kill bear or a wolf. This one was totally unsocialised and half mad from being locked in a small cage with no outside view since puppy hood. It always barked and crashed it's bars as we rode past. This day, it had broken it's lock, and was loose. It came straight at the horses and kids, barking and slathering. Two kids were riding, one was walking and leading Rosie. Rosie pulled free, eyed up the rapidly approaching dog, pawed and snorted a warning, then as he leaped to attack, she wheeled and let rip with both hind legs. This huge dog lifted up off the ground, flew through the air, landed with a thump on his side, picked himself up and went back to his kennel. The kids, shaken, carried on.

How glad I am that Rosie remembers her survival instincts and spends some time practicing her skills.

So, here's my point..
The play, Chase the Tiger and all the other mock fight games are the natural normal behaviours for horses, just as role plays of possible adult situations (fighting, hunting, housebuilding etc etc) are natural behaviours for the young (and sometimes not so young!) of every species, including human.
The play is essential training for possible real life situations. It hones their defense skills, and at the same time keeps them fit and active, provides interaction, and is FUN! But it doesn't make them homicidal.

Horses are not "attack" creatures.. they are "defense" animals. So it's just too big a stretch of the imagination for me to think of a horse being "taught" the Tiger game, and therefore learning to "attack" in seriousness, innocent creatures. (Unless the horse is crazy - totally unsocialised and abnormal). Practicing may help them to deal effectively with an attack.... or a raid on their food buckets..But it's not going to turn a well socialised, happy, human liking horse, into a creature that attacks on whim.

When we start to join in the role play and encourage our horse in Chase the Tiger and such, my experience is the horses know full well, even the youngest of them, that this is role play, for fun.
We must be sure to teach them that we start and stop the game, and that we don't want to play as roughly as their horse buddies like. This is fairly simple to do.

At the moment, our little filly is learning that we don't accept being nipped on the ankle to play... but if she stands back politely and invites us with her gestures we might. If we allowed and responded to her usual horse to horse invitations (nipping, leaping up, striking with a leg, turning her butt and play kicking) we could create a really dangerous situation where she approached others and even children in this way. But we don't and she won't. Harlequin at just turning three, has this down pat. I must post a video to show the differences between how he plays with the filly to how he plays with my daughter. Miro pretty soon will have matured enough to also be completely sensible and trustworthy around non-horsey people and small children.

If we have a good relationship with our horse, and our horse cares about us, they are happy to adapt their behaviour a bit to suit the fragile humans. They are VERY VERY smart, and have no illusions that humans are horses. Likewise, if they have been socialised to dogs and don't feel threatened by them, they will continue to get along just fine with dogs, and may even invite the dogs into the game. But, and I'm very proud to say this, beware any dog who comes into our herd with evil intent!

Regards small children, it's my experience also that the horses I know all understand that children are baby humans. They treat them with utmost gentleness.. and with the high status that our horses bestow on humans. So... a baby pig has been tossed by the scruff of her neck out of Rosie's feed bowl.. but a small child rummaging around in it would just get a gentle little nose nudge.

Teaching horses to play with us doesn't change their basic nature. It won't turn a nice, social, friendly, co-operative gentle natured horse into a crazy, mean, unpredictable, vengeful, attacking creature. If you already have a horse that is crazy, mean, unpredictable, vengeful, attacking, you probably wouldn't be advised to try to play Chase the Tiger with it.

But if you have a horse of the usual friendly kind, and you know how to teach boundaries appropriately and have confidence in your own physical ability, then play is just going to add another positive dimension to your relationship, be a great training tool, and be lots of fun for your horse as well.

If you don't feel confident in your abilities, by all means don't play. But please, think twice before you attribute this decision to the horses' lack of common sense and goodwill. :)

BEst regards,
Sue


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 12:03 pm 
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Hi Sue!
Well, this time you have succeeded in formulating a very clear reply!
I agree for the full 100% with all you wrote, and I can't find anything else to add :)

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Jolanda
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our introduction with photos: http://www.artofnaturaldressage.com/viewtopic.php?t=744


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 8:38 pm 
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same here...very good...

and yes my pony does the same, he does nothing with the dog when he has no food or anything and the dog just walk around him.
The dog walks freely around the farm and walks day in and out in the fields between the horses.
So they know him very well, but he may not steel any food from them..


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 12:59 am 
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Thanks Sue (and everyone) for your comments and suggestions. As I understand it, Inge's pony was probably protecting her food. I've seen some horses who are pretty agressive when it's feeding time (I'm not saying Inge's pony is agressive but maybe just protecting her food like some dogs would).

Corado is out with other horses. I let him out with Magic (my other horse) and they will nip at each other's neck for short periods of time. But when Shrek, the pony, is with him, it's hilarious. Corado will kneel down to be at the same level as the pony. Corado's neck is all bitten everywhere because of Shrek but I know Corado is the one starting all the time. when I started letting them out together, Corado was being run over by Shrek meaning Shrek was dominating Corado. Now, I've noticed that Corado has alot more confidence and he doesn't want to be the last one. So he runs after Shrek. But it's still Corado being bitten. Shrek had one bite on his back, that's it.
So I think Corado would love to play this game. I am very confident around Corado on the ground so I don't have a problem with that, I was hesitant since I don't want to teach him something that I may regret later.
Your comments are very interesting and they make sense. I will try slowly with him (at the walk) to see if he's enjoying himself.
Thanks for your time. Greatly appreciated.
Jocelyne


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 1:05 am 
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horsefever wrote:
Thanks Sue (and everyone) for your comments and suggestions. As I understand it, Inge's pony was probably protecting her food. I've seen some horses who are pretty agressive when it's feeding time (I'm not saying Inge's pony is agressive but maybe just protecting her food like some dogs would).

Corado is out with other horses. I let him out with Magic (my other horse) and they will nip at each other's neck for short periods of time. But when Shrek, the pony, is with him, it's hilarious. Corado will kneel down to be at the same level as the pony. Corado's neck is all bitten everywhere because of Shrek but I know Corado is the one starting all the time. when I started letting them out together, Corado was being run over by Shrek meaning Shrek was dominating Corado. Now, I've noticed that Corado has alot more confidence and he doesn't want to be the last one. So he runs after Shrek. But it's still Corado being bitten. Shrek had one bite on his back, that's it.
So I think Corado would love to play this game. I am very confident around Corado on the ground so I don't have a problem with that, I was hesitant since I don't want to teach him something that I may regret later.
Your comments are very interesting and they make sense. I will try slowly with him (at the walk) to see if he's enjoying himself.
Thanks for your time. Greatly appreciated.
Jocelyne


Just remember, high up, the Tiger is a target to be followed. Down low, The Tiger is a creature to be destroyed.

Especially as you come under his nose, and toward his front feet along the ground.

To the horse it probably triggers ancestral memory of one of a pack...wolves or other canids...trying to sneak in and bite.

Donald



:D

_________________
Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 5:46 pm 
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Donald Redux wrote:
Just remember, high up, the Tiger is a target to be followed. Down low, The Tiger is a creature to be destroyed.


Well, it's just how you want to teach it to your horse. 8)

It's doesn't really matter how I hold the tiger, high or low. With us the difference between attacking or following is more how I ask for them to follow it, and if I encourage wild movements (which they are not that keen on at the moment anyway) or let them be more relaxed during the chase. the height doesn't matter that much.

For the rest I agree with everyone: horses aren't stupid, and chasing a plastic bag doesn't mean that they will start to attack kids. Just as allowing them to eat hay or grass won't mean that they will start to eat humans. 8) Horses also only will be aggressive around food if they haven't been taught how to deal with food correctly. Clickertrainers after all also use food, and don't miss more fingers than other horsepeople. :wink:


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 6:52 pm 
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Miriam wrote:
Donald Redux wrote:
Just remember, high up, the Tiger is a target to be followed. Down low, The Tiger is a creature to be destroyed.


Well, it's just how you want to teach it to your horse. 8)


Ah, just so.

"I would be very interested in learning on this subject.

Jocelyne"

Jocelyne, who is asking about learning to teach this Chasing The Tiger game, needs to see how each of us that do it might proceed from the beginning.

Miriam wrote:
It's doesn't really matter how I hold the tiger, high or low. With us the difference between attacking or following is more how I ask for them to follow it, and if I encourage wild movements (which they are not that keen on at the moment anyway) or let them be more relaxed during the chase. the height doesn't matter that much.


I agree, as the game learning progresses this should happen and does. In fact, Dakota, yesterday, was positively bored of the game.

I think I was imagining Jocelyne's first attempts, where she might get a very strong reaction to coming in at ground level with The Tiger. Dakota, and other horses I've observed have pounced like a lion. In fact, that particular behavior, though the logic is reversed, is what prompted me to refer to the black plastic as a Tiger. It was his behavior...more like a cat jumping on a mouse in the field.

Miriam wrote:
For the rest I agree with everyone: horses aren't stupid, and chasing a plastic bag doesn't mean that they will start to attack kids. Just as allowing them to eat hay or grass won't mean that they will start to eat humans. 8) Horses also only will be aggressive around food if they haven't been taught how to deal with food correctly. Clickertrainers after all also use food, and don't miss more fingers than other horsepeople. :wink:


How true, now true.

Though dumb clickertrainers can forget themselves as I did on a very cold day where I lost track of exactly where my fingers were and found my gloved thumb being gently knawed by Dakota. He was so sweet.

He worked my thumb around and from between his teeth, but of course, managed to retain the treat all the while.

Now there's a nice horse. :lol:

_________________
Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.


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