The Art of Natural Dressage

Hi all..

My little one only attac the dog when he get muesli, he do not get it much but like it very..very..much..
He can eat together with his friend muesli from one bucket without any problem, no fighting or bite to eachother. The same with hay, they eat it out each mouth for sometimes...*LOL*
But only with his friend, he does not do it by other horses, or let other horses eat out of his bucket, then he will fight again, but in de the field he is always the lowest in the group, when he eat at some place a other horse came, he have to move away...

maybe he feel stonger when i am around or his friend?? he know that he will be protected after all?

Hi all,

New to this forum but here goes!

Interesting thread...

The experience I have had with my mare Lucy is that her critter chasing behavior has diminished since I began playing with chasing a target. I do mostly the 'calmer' targeting tho. Now that could be that she just got used to my dogs but the target chasing definitely did not increase her critter chasing behavior.

Also, I've been experimenting with having the target/tiger low or high as I am trying to get more playfulness and energy from my mare. I have found that when I go from low on the ground to high I get more energy, or at least more lift in the front. If I just keep it low she does her long and low movement which is good in another way, but very relaxed. The thing she loves the best is if I can get a head start and run away from her with the target/tiger.

Would love to hear ideas of specifically how you used the tiger/target to get more play and energy, especially from those of you who have horses that don't offer you wild games naturally???

Thanks. Brenda

This has been my experience too. My mare Rosie who has had agression issues that spilled out onto other horses, dogs, and people who disturbed her has become much calmer and more trustworthy since she's had a legitimate way to release her pent up feelings.

Increasing base fitness has been a big factor in encouraging more exuberant play from the more energy concious. Providing timely and thoughtfully structured rewards has also helped. I know there are those who think that we should't reward for play behaviour - we want it to be intrinsically rewarding. However, my experience is that in the initial stages, for a horse who has low energy levels, low status, or who has previously been taught to NOT express themselves, using food rewards strategically in the early stages can be a big booster, and as the horse is encouraged to play more, they DO begin to find that the play is fun, and the rewards can be put on an intermittent schedule, and then phased out altogether.
Cheers,

Sue

It appears we are talking about, and developing something I would call, Equine Social Learning Theory. In humans a research, Bandura, developed such a theory about how humans learn, and in therapy with young people, the field I worked in, that was the basis for much of our method.

What you are both describing is in line with that. How to take unwanted behaviors, and based on learning theory, teach a new way of behavior and extinguishing of the old.

And one of those ways was to focus on a behavior, usually aggression, but we also worked with withdrawal and similar retreat from the world.

Then devise ways to both explore the behavior, such as acting it out safely, then, immediately follow up with a similar but safe behavior they could perform instead of the unwanted form of it.



Romy, you and others, have recently discussed, that there is more too it than the issue of intrinsic reward from the activity itself.

That is true, it does reward itself, but all behavior happens within a much much larger context. Or has considerable potential to that might either suppress the behavior or encourage the behavior.

Going back to the most basic of behaviorism, it's posited that we move toward pleasure and away from pain.

Two ends of a continuum, a spectrum.

If we start from a midpoint, where our feeling is neutral (an impossible state, except in death -- as far as we know ) each creature has both their species characteristic tolerance for pain and pleasure (yes, pleasure can get to be too much and cause a shutdown at times)and also their individual tolerance.

And so you deal with each horse as individuals, as therapeutic practitioners should always be focusing on doing.

You are doing, it appears to me, therapeutic rehabilitation, or with horses whose systems are not corrupted, you are doing self actualization work. From Maslow's hierarchy of needs model.

Hopefully both kinds of horses headed in the same direction under your thoughtful and kindly hand, each of you.

This may or may not resonate for folks, but it's worth taking a look at as we develop our personal equine philosophy.

http://www.lifeworktransitions.com/exercises/part1/mazlow.html

As I look at how we are with our horses, these are the goals that both the horse strives for, and we provide for them as well.

I believe that given the chance, as you two are discussing, the horse will "actualize." That is it will strive toward the state of being where they realize the most potential they are capable of.

Life is like that for me, and I suspect you get it how much I enjoy my life, and that is what I wish any horse I associate with to have a chance to do. Really enjoy their life.

And thus I know that if he is disabled (as so many of the horses folks here find when the come together) sometimes one has to be very clever in figuring out how to meet that hierarchy of needs, and move with the horse toward his or her self actualization.

These game we play, as you point out, have a great deal more to them than cute tricks for amusement.

Does this present any ideas on how to expand and apply the use of targeting and chasing?

I love your description, Sue, of how an aggressive mare could through this particular play come to be a safer happier and more actualized horse. It's very thrilling. Very like seeing children I an other's work with that blossomed, and bega to really get joy out of live and feel good about themselves, and present less of a danger to the community, and begin to be able to contribute to it.

It still, even after all these years, effects me greatly. And now I get to read about people doing this with horses.

What a wonderful exciting thing you are doing. I am so very deeply moved by it.

Now were did I put my hanky?

Donald Redux

_________________
Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.

Hi Donald, Nice post. I really appreciate seeing your take on things and gaining better perspective. Yes, the idea of a hierarchy of EQUINE needs resonates deeply with me. I do believe horses also need to have each base need addressed in turn before it can move on to working on the next higher level.
Self-actualization may be choosing to move in natural collection, taking an interest in manipulating their environment, instigating play, investigating the culture of other animals (including human).. hmm what else?

Are you also familiar with The Continuum Concept (Jean Liedloff)? Her work was focused on how we could better prepare babies and children for higher self esteem, greater contentment and better social skills in adult hood by ensuring that their genetically programmed experiential needs were met at the correct developmental stage. In my work with children and adults, I took this to the next stage, blending it together with a bit of pop psychology that I loved ("It's never too late to have a happy childhood" - Tom Robbins, Still Life with Woodpecker.) helping people to recreate opportunities to go through those missing experiences. And tying it in with CBT. (Cognitive Behavioural Therapy .... which is incidentally almost identical to some Tibetan Buddhist methods for implementing behavioural changes.)

Now I'm playing around with these same ideas in horses. They seem to be responding just the same.

It's very plain to see, that my young Sunrise, who spent her first eight months living with her mum and herd in a natural situation in the hills, then was socialised to humans very positively, and since, has had every opportunity to fulfill most of her natural experiential needs in turn(stallions and mating being the main exception), has moved effortlessly and quickly, without hesitation, through the hierarchy of needs.
Her physiological needs had always been well catered for when she arrived here, and she was fast becoming assured of her safety and protection. She then had to find a place in the newly created herd...I watched and assisted as she went from being the lowest on the pecking order, being chased from hay pile to hay pile, to discovering her own power, standing up to the lead bully, and establishing her sense of belonging. Simultaneously, she was becoming bonded to humans (me!) and having her needs for love and belonging met there too..Her self-esteem rocketed in the next couple of months as she discovered her own ability to solve problems, and enjoyed her new social status. We could see the happiness just glowing out of her. And in pretty short order, she was doing some very unusual (for horses) things.. going exploring on her own... becoming interested in mechanics.. things she could manipulate..... attempting to change and influence her environment... wanting to learn and find out about all manner of things that piqued her curiosity...taking an interest in the culture of other groups.
I'm waiting for her to discover her spirituality now.

By contrast,
Bella...
Arrived as a ruined show pony. Has been taught all the moves, then finally, after years of being hauled around, having a sore mouth, sore feet, no control over her environment, learnt how to shut down and escape.
She arrived with only trust in the first level of needs being satisfied. She ate and drank, and knew that that was always forthcoming. She didn't feel secure.. lowest in pecking order, and used to being sold from home to home, being forced into unsafe situations. She made one horse friend, but took a long time to really integrate into the herd. Took more than two years show any sense of belonging and love with us humans. Very low self-esteem. Shut down, no attempts to communicate. Health issues tied up with immune system problems. Recently began to show higher self esteem, stand up to some other members of herd, offer interaction with people. Lots of play, encouragement, and reward based training, no punishment, care of her physical needs etc, all in order, and finally now, she's beginning to reach out, and I would say, be working on self-actualization.. joining in and even beginning play with other horses, exploring her own feelings with role play and movement, as she has perceived each need to be met.

And then Rosie.. Back to the continuum concept.. well, as a young race horse in training, she would have had many many of her normal experiental needs interrupted, and many completely missing, as well as a perception of her base needs (Maslow)not being met. This shows up in her poor social skills, inappropriate and exaggerated responses to conflict or stress, perception of doom, and (previous) inability to bond. She was definitely still working in the second level when we met - fighting tooth and hoof to effect her own security and protection. She had no sense of belonging, to either horse or herd, so was relying almost totally on her own agression to meet her safety needs.

Allowing her to feel safe was my first goal.. that meant removing all punishment, even scolding.
The second goal of integrating her better into the herd (teaching her to mutual groom rather than attack), and creating a personal bond with her came next. Once that was in place,it was possible to see her self esteem raise, as she began to express herself, and experiment with more gentle communication. I think she's just at the beginning of the self actualisation stage yet, but she's still not entirely secure. This may have something to do with missing experiences.
So I think the energetic and sometimes agressive play is helping her to fill in some of the developmental gaps that she missed out on, and give her the opportunity to have, at this late stage, a happy filly hood.

Did you ever see the link to my "healing the inner filly" photos Donald? Rosie's expression in the cycling photo is incredible, for those who have known her. We can truly see the shy, innocent trusting filly that she once was peeking out again.
And in her agressive play, the playful confident, joyous yearling.

Hanky.. hanky...?
Didn't I see it attached to the end of stick with a small dark horse chasing it around?
Sue

Hi Sue,

The intrinsic VS extrinisc question is one I have been asking myself since I found AND! I know with dogs you can really squish an intrinsically reinforcing activity by using treats/toys, but sometimes that works to our benefit!

I have a cold blooded draft and a pretty shut down QH so treats seem to be the best way to keep them interested! They always want to stay with me, maybe too much? so if I don't run, they don't run! So I'll keep working on play a little bit at a time! And yes! fitness (mine too!) is an issue right now, and footing too, because we're in the middle of winter and have LOTS of ice.

Anyway, I was thinking of teaching them to wait, just so I could call them to me, or call and run??? Is that a good idea, or too contrived???

Thanks for the input!

Brenda

Hi Brenda, For me, the way to ensuring treats enhance intrinsic motivation has been to put them on intermittent schedule, so the horse doesn't quite know when he'll get one, but to use lots of other rewards as well, using the same marker signal. THis is a bit different to clicker training, which tells us that you must give a treat each time you click.
I'm basing my use on Bridge and Target, or SATS theory.
So after initially training the click to the food treat, I then sometimes throw in a scratch reward, then voice reward, and then kind of wean to intrinsic reward, and joy of sharing, when the situation feels right... that is, as the horse starts to show that she is enjoying it. Then the food rewards just get used for training some new things. I let the horses guide me as to when they want it.
One of ours is a half quarter horse, part clyde part tb... but her nature is ALL Clydie.. and using this method, she's actually been spontaneously showing a bit of self carriage and offering up a little trot and canter when the other horses are playing in the paddock recently, when in the past all she would do would be to turn her ample butt and give a little warning hop.. so it's spilling over into her private life as well.. which must be the ultimate sign of the horse discovering the intrinsic joy.

I don't think that teaching them to wait is too contrived. It's slightly different to just encouraging 100% free play, but both things have their place imo. Cheryl has a lovely video clip posted somewhere of Cam being asked to wait as she walks away, then on signal he comes running to her. Lovely!

Sue

Sue, you are describing, as you likely already know, what the very best of trainers that use negative reinforcement (pressure release) with finesse are doing.

They start as lightly as they can get a response to, then work back to lighter and lighter 'cues' using the correcting leg, and the correcting rein.

They can get extraordinary performance, and do.

And you describe also what the best reward based (bridge signal reward, or Click/Treat) trainers do.

Alexandra Kurland, if I recall correctly, uses a similar progression to remove the click and reward cycle and replace it with, in the end, the horse's investment in play and performance.

It's the natural outcome of the reward based operant conditioning system is, just as surely as compliance rather than self commitment is to pressure release.

I think so much is dependent on the heart and mind of the trainer. I have seen extraordinary performance by some horses with some pressure/release trainers.

What I see with the best reward based trainers though is not only extraordinary performance, but a fundamental change in the horse just as you describe, and far more horses that engage spontaneously.

Your description is inspiring in it's clarity on how you move through the stages toward that state of generosity of spirit and willingness to engage spontaneously.

I wish I could think of questions to draw out more explicit information. But just following you so far helps me understand, and helps in challenging my own long involvement with pressure/release style training.

I am inspired.

I see also that I may have been missing this with Dakota and some of his shutting down, or shutting off to me and withdrawing attention may well have to do with my own methods and a need to trust the horse more. He's safe to ride, so my obligation to the owner as to training has been met.

Whatever I add now is frosting.

So why not add something that is good for him, and just hope I can influence any new owner.

The weather has been rushing me too, I think. It's so darn cold and miserable, usually raining on top of snow, or wind blowing, etc. that it's difficult to do what I know must be done...that I patiently wait for him to connect.

Hanging about the paddock, as it were.

I laughed at the image of the part draft mare. And laughed for her that she can begin to join in being a horse again with other horses. And taking her place.

Donald Redux

Donald Redux

_________________
Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.

Yes, I am familiar with SATS tho I have only dabbled with the intrmediate bridge and used it in combination with c/t.



Yes, I have done similar things with my dogs in agility and sheepdog training but I am having trouble seeing exactly what's intrinsically reinforcing to horses to get them to give us such energy without pressure???? Guess that's why I'm here I guess!!!!



Wonderful! Do you have any videos showing how you work?? That would be soooo helpful for me as I am a visual learner! I'll check the video section...



Yes! the Cheryl and Cam video is what gave me the idea! So I think I'll try it, at least for now!

I feel like I'm on an adventure trip but not sure where the path goes right now...

Thanks for your time and input!!!

Brenda

I guess it's the joy and celebration of feeling a fit and agile body under their skin...
When we first take up dancing, or running, or aerobics, or football, or running around trying to keep up with our horses, the energy required is often greater than our current fitness can easily maintain. We need some hope of external reward..(I'm going to get slim and attractive! I'm going to feel healthier! My horses are going to learn something and get fit! I might even do okay in the triathlon!) But once we physically adapt to it, we usually find that the pleasure in the activity itself, the pleasure of feeling our bodies working for us as we want them to, the raised spirits we experience, the endorphins that are released by the exercise provide us with sufficient motivation to just want to keep on doing it more for it's own sake.

Why should it be any different for horses? Two reasons I could think of is if they are not fit and feeling good, and if they are being pressured unduly into that exercise. Otherwise, why should they enjoy a good horsekind of romp any less than an agility dog enjoys his doggy romp?


Sue

Would I be safe in speculating that it's could be wrapped up in the concept of "work," versus "play?"

Or possibly more accurately, in the transformation of work INTO play?

_________________
Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.

Corado finally chased the tiger (and not me) and stomped on it
I hadn't played this game for awhile and decided to try it out. He never really trotted after it before. when he would, he would follow me rather than the tiger.
So this week, I brought out the carrot stick and the plastic bag and started at the beginning. He followed it, put his nose on it a few times, clicked and treated.
When I started walking faster, he automatically started trotting but was still looking at the tiger so I slowed down so he could put his nose on it, then clicked and treated. Did this a few times until he was trotting at a greater distance and then he did it! He lifted his front feet and jumped on it, his neck arched as if to say"got ya!!
I clicked and treated.
I think it went well because I've been working on "leg up" and asking to walk at the same (having trouble but I'll get there). Compared to Magik, he loves his feet, he paws everything, he's constantly lifting his feet, while Magik is the opposite, will not put his feet on anything but will put everything in his mouth.
At the end, I had to place myself on one side of the fence and him on the other because he seemed to like the game a little more than I expected and just to be on the safe side...

Hooray!!! The tool for so many behaviors one might wish to encourage. But ...



Wise move.

It's important to remember that for the horse they have three major weapons, if they must stand and fight a predator. Teeth, hind hooves, and of course, front hooves.

The reaction you saw is exactly that which comes from this natural weapon.

In a human if one was a boxing coach, one would applaud energetic use of the fists to encourage the budding fighter, but would not do things that suggest the fighter hit just anyone for any personal reason.

The theme here in AND is common, that working with jambette and other front leg lifts requires teaching the horse to direct the movement away from the human. Knowing the range of the horse's reach, and or standing well to the side is important.

It's thrill to see that the first time, isn't it though. For me it signals that horses that have had standard training and handling have the potential to break out of the self suppressing model forced on them.

Now to direct it. That's the challenge while not forcing the horse back into suppressing this expression of freedom and spirit.

During the training period I would not allow the horse to be at liberty with dogs and children running about in front of them though. Once the action is well attached to a cue it's more manageable.

I had an ancient pre-history ancestoral memory flashback when Dakota did this the first time -- pounced on the Tiger. I could almost see the pack of wild dogs trying to kill him, and him fighting back powerfully. Makes one's hair stand on end.

And it reminds me we and the horse share a common history of being prey ourselves. Humans probably were an easy catch for a long time, until we learned how to fight back.

Horses got better with tooth and hoof, while we learned about the rock and the stick.

Good for you. Such fun.

Donald R.

_________________
Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.

You know Donald I kinda forgot about the dog part. Good thing I don't have a dog and my cats are all scared of the horses (never seen a horse before June). So...
I've noticed that Corado is using his front legs more and more. Since I'm not as scared of him like before I can tell him "no" firmly when I don't want a certain action, and I start over what I was doing to make sure I don't get it (for example when I'm in front of him and he does leg up). What I've also noticed is that alot of times he paws with agression or maybe that's not the good word, with enthusiasm. With leg up, I now can control his energy when he puts his foot down. by holding the leg with my dressage stick he keeps it up until I remove it. Then he puts his put down softly.
Oh yeah, the farrier told me that Corado was mean to him once, he tried to kick him discreetly when he was straddling his front foot. I now believe him because he's alot more dominant than before especially with Magik. I think I have quite the horse on my hands now. So far, he's been very nice to me, but I haven't really asked him to work either. I just play. Maybe that's ok too. That's what I do with Magik and my relationship with both my horses is great.
Anyways, I will be careful with Chase the Tiger. I won't ask him to play this game every time I bring him out.

With the ponies I always include a Chase the Tiger moment in one shape or another (chasing the real Tiger, or chasing a piece of wood that I hold in my hand, or just chasing me ), because I want to keep them energetic and lively during the sessions, and just doig focused work tends to overcollect them and slow them down a bit. The loosening up in going forwards is just as important.

However, Even if we chase the real tiger, we differentiate in how we chase it: just follow it around in walk/trot/canter with a forwards-downwards reaching neck like when lungeing, or the Attack the Tiger with all the wild chase and jumps.

In a single ten minute Chase the Tiger session I often alternate between the two several times, with my bodylanguage and voice (neutral or exited) showing them what the Tiger is at that moment. I might ask Sjors to chase the tiger very wild, then ask him to just trot after it in a collected way, and then turn it into a real chase again with SJors jumping on top of the tiger - and only then give the reward, so without breaks in between.

So even though I think it is very wise to think about safety when teaching horses exiting movements, they can very well differentiate between when an object is meant for serious training, and when for wild play. That's because in our training sessions it's me who gives meaning to the object, and not the object itself. So I can drag the object in front of Blacky, while asking him to back up, away from the bag, and reward for that.

For me, Chase the Tiger isn't really 'The game of the plastic bag on a stick (or whatever ), but instead it's one of the many games you can play with a bag on a stick. Just as you can play Chase the Tiger (meaning a game of: horse, follow that at high speed!' ) with a lot of other objects. I can also use our official tiger (bag on stick) as a regular target, and as a way to ask for stretching the nose down, for lungeing and for asking the rear to become higher.