The Art of Natural Dressage

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 4:04 am 
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Hi Natasha!

I'm guessing that you'll get a variety of helpful suggestions from people...but I thought I'd jump in since no one else has responded yet. :smile:

I'm working with a young horse -- got her when she was just two, so she's a little older than your baby -- other people who've worked with even younger horses may have better thoughts, but here goes...

The first thing, for me, was to help both Circe (my filly) and I figure out how to play as horses while helping her to understand I wasn't a horse -- I was smaller and more fragile, and play kicks and bites weren't fun for me!! ;)

I think young horses think of people as other horses -- not that they can't understand the differences between us, but they know how to be horses and assume everyone else comes at the world in the same way.

So I learned to think about Circe playing hard as just that -- not being too aggressive, but just playing too hard.

The first thing I tried was to think about how an older horse might shut a baby down a little bit if she was playing too hard. They get aggressive back, and will kick or bite back, or do a dominance thing over their necks, for example. I didn't want to do any of those things :ieks: ;), but it did occur to me that the "NOPE! This isn't how we play!" message was important.

I do a few things when Circe gets too excited (she's getting a lot better about this, but still sometimes forgets). In all of them, a lot of it is about my energy -- up and excited with her, calmer, not approving, etc. -- and I talk to her a lot, telling her what I don't like and what I do like.

1. I'll do the personal space windmill every time I feel like we're running and she's getting to close to me (she still does this a fair amount -- she has a very small personal space!) :) The first couple of times I put a lot of energy into it saying "give me room" as we ran, and she understood it. Now, generally, I don't even need to wave my arms, but if I just put an arm out she remembers that she's supposed to run next to me rather than on top of me! :-) We didn't work on this before we played -- we learned it while we were moving.

2. If she does a kick threaten (she's famous for these -- she'll pop her hind up in the air like she's going to do a big double barrelled kick but never extends her feet) in my direction, I push my arms out and tell her out loud that I don't like that game. If I'm close enough to her, I'll actually push her hind end away from me a little bit, once she's back on the ground.

3. If she still plays too hard, I'll stop the game and walk away. Game over! I'll walk quietly past her and go and do something else. She stops pretty much immediately at this point and comes over to ask if she can be with me again. Most of the time, we'll start to play again right away, and she doesn't do what she was just doing. I think young horses can be like little kids and get really wound up -- as I'm writing this, there are a bunch of little kids next door playing on a trampoline, and I'm listening to their play wind up into what is going to be, I can guarantee, someone sobbing in the next few minutes! :D Sometimes just a break in the action can bring them back to playing nicely without being total lunatics!

4. A couple of months ago, she and Stardust (my other horse) were really excited and playing wildly and were really forgetting the only rule we have when we do this -- if they are going to fight with each other, they must do it when and where they can't squish me! No Leigh squishing allowed! :) They both had forgotten this, so I stuck my arms out to keep them out of my space. Stardust remembered what that meant, but Circe was too excited, and she decided the next fun part of the game would be to body slam me as she kept in between me and Stardust. She did it once and (once I'd recovered my balance! ;) ) I told her I didn't like it. She did it again, and I put my arm out after she ran into me. Still didn't get the message! So the next time I was instinctively ready for her and threw up my arm with my hand in a fist and bent my knees and grounded my energy so she couldn't knock me over, and she ran into my hand.
I felt a little badly, because she instantly got it and she was a little upset -- she was licking her lips and apologizing all over the place. But it actually worked really well - I didn't go after her and punish her, I just became the immovable thing that it wasn't fun to knock around. (I wasn't angry, just really clear!) She's not done that since, and it doesn't seem to have made her at all nervous about playing hard -- she just doesn't use me as a bowling pin any more! ;)

5. Oh -- another thing that's helped a lot is I've taught her that if I put my hand in front of her chest (initially, I would touch her chest, now I don't actually make any physical contact) she slows down and/or stops with me, so she stays at my shoulder. This has ended up being a really good lesson for both of us about how we can run and play really together, not just at the same time, if that makes sense.

6. Lastly, I've learned that if she's really extra wound up and excited, it doesn't hurt to let her run and kick and buck a little bit on her own before we play -- sometimes even just for a minute or two -- she gets to be as wild and crazy as she wants (which I love watching!) and then is better able to play nicely with me, remembering that I'm breakable, after letting of some extra steam.

I think the biggest thing for me has been to figure out where my comfort/safety levels are, and to learn that I can shape the game to reach that point but go no further -- again, a lot of this is about the energy that I share with them.

(And yes, now the children next door are ALL sobbing and the instigator is getting yelled at! Did I call it, or what!?? 8) )

Hope this is helpful!

All the best,
Leigh

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 6:45 pm 

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Thank you soooo much! This is extremely helpful! I've cleared my doubts now.

Quote:
I think young horses think of people as other horses -- not that they can't understand the differences between us, but they know how to be horses and assume everyone else comes at the world in the same way.


Yes, that's exactly what were my thoughts on young horses. I was just worried how it would turn out if I showed her that her way of playing wasn't interesting to me. If that would be counterproductive. I don't have experience with baby horses. I've dealed with agressive ones, unconfident, etc, but never with a baby horse and hurting a youngster's feelings... :sad:

So you say it's working just fine... Instead: offer an alternative way of having fun - nonviolent way.

Thanks! Your experience is very helpful! :kiss:


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 11:28 am 

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Thank you a lot.

I think this could work. I will start today. I really understand it could surely be his problem as he has been with a little girl all his life.

Love,

Helene

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 9:25 pm 

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I did it and it really helped me. I had to keep him on a rope as he jumped out of the arena again, but when he got my point he became relaxt :)

Thank you a lot :)

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2009 3:51 am 
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hi there :D :D i wanted to post here my experiences with Doc. he is a stock horse who is extreamly playful, but very domineering and pushy. he is a pushy horse without any respect for personal space, not to me or to other horses. he is not liked by other horses as he just gets on top of them all the time, he gets agressive if they do not comply and so they do not like to even be in the same paddock with him.

he is a very talented horse who just loves learning, but it is a little frightning as he will actually walk right over the top of you, let alone doing anything faster than walk.

i played with him alot over a fence as i thought that this would get him used to being a little bit distanced from me, but he just about climbs over the fence now, this is a video of him over the fence....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1aR5P_pxjXw

so i have gone back to basics. i want to show him how to mimic me but having a distance between us. so we are going to start with a little "step across"

i watched a youtube somewhere of a horse line dancing and it was apparent to me that this would be a great game to show them how to play without treading on my feet! so here is the very beginnings, this is the first day.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qkMVil7n0M

so let me know what you think about this idea, or anything you would add, or advice. this ould be greatly appreciated :love:

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2009 1:02 am 
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here is a link that i thought was a great game to hep the pushy horse lear about not treading on you. this is the kind of think that i am aiming for, although i am not a line dancing fan, i think that the idea of the horse stepping carefully like a dance so as to keep that space is what i am after. what do you think??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XAlfM-OI94

love to hear any thoughts :love: :love: :love:

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 2:28 am 
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Since pushy horses like to push into people with the shoulder, a nice thing to teach them is to circle around you with a good bend in the body...this keeps the shoulder up and off of you. If you elicit it and reward it often, the horse will be less likely to push into you - simply because NOT to push into you becomes more rewarding.

Also though, from a safety perspective, always be aware of where they horse is at...if they are moving past you but not focusing on you, you stand a greater chance of getting walked on. Emotions also play a part...if the horse is emotional, back off, and draw them back to you softly so their focus is back on you. If the horse is fearful and reactive (spooking), then stay aware of what's frightening them, and place yourself between the horse and the scary object...then you stay safer. If the horse is going to bolt, they will bolt away from you.

You can teach the bend around you at liberty, by placing your hand on the girth area and when they bend the body, reward (head toward you, rib cage moves away from you). Reward a step or two at a time, because if they get enthusiastic, they could drop the shoulder in on you again and BUMP! Oomph! You walk in an arc to help them get the idea.

If you use a halter and lead line, you can encourage the head toward you softly, and again, place your hand on the rib cage. Some horses like constant but soft pressure, and some horses like a soft rhythmic pressure with the hand. If you are walking side by side, very close to the horse, you can also use your forearm on the girth area.

In clicker terms, they say that when an animal displays an unwanted behavior, then it's a good idea to train an incompatible behavior. A good bend in the body is incompatible with pushing into you with their shoulder! :D

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 12:52 am 
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this sounds like a great thing to teach, thankyou Karen. i will start this soon.

i began with the foot work game because he will actually try to targe my ankle while walking. he swings his leg out and stomps on my foot. :funny: :funny: :funny: i think that he finds this amusing watching me try to dodge the hoof. :funny: :funny: :funny: i will have a look through ground training exercises to find a good thread on this. do you know if there is one?

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 3:29 am 
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HI Jessplum (sorry don't know your name),
Corado, my TB looks exactly like your horse! Same color, same white mark on the forehead.
Anyways, I don't have the same problem as you since Corado would do the opposite, he would run away from me when he spooked and he was not eager to come to me. Now things are different since he's alot more confident and sometimes he will push me with his head. But never has he tried to stomp me with his feet.
Just a suggestion: if your horse has it in his head to stomp your feet, I strongly suggest you wear shoes, and in your case maybe shoes with steel caps. I don't have that problem and would never go barefeet beside a horse. Maybe I'm too security-prone but I've never been hurt (touch wood). But when I saw your video, I kinda said to myself "I think she may be looking for trouble" Please don't get me wrong - maybe you feel completely at ease with this. Then that's fine - I should mind my own business, but maybe I can help. :f:
Also, your other video showing you running on one side of a fence and your horse on the other: is that barbed-wire?? I really hope not. But if it is, maybe you shouldn't excite him beside this kind of fence. Again, I'm always thinking about "what would happen if..." What if he decided to run into the fence OOUCCHHH!!!

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 9:45 am 
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:funny: :funny: :funny: :funny: , hi there, i laughed out loud when i read your post, thankyou for the care :funny: :love:

i was practically born with horses, my first fall was in nappies :D and i have had every toe in my foot broken at least once. ;) almost all of the breaks happend with boots on, but lately they all ach so much with shoes on that i prefer to keep them off. i find that i can move them out of the way quicker. :yes: :yes: :yes: (although i have missed on the odd occasion) i found that boots on or off, they still break now as they are weak, only difference is that it breaks the skin when barefoot. actually, i find that i have not much feeling in my feet anymore :funny: :funny: :funny: :funny: :funny: i wouldnt suggest this to anyone else, but it is more comefortable barefoot :kiss: :kiss: but dont worry, i took no offence at the suggestion as i hear it all the time. it is nice to know that people care. :kiss: :kiss: :kiss:

(ooohhh, my name is Jessy)

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:55 pm 

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Location: Estonia, Tallinn
I have a problem. And the problem is not my own horse, but someone elses. My shoulder is blue as she has bit me almost every time I walk to the pasture. She has galloped over me about 10 times and reared in front of me landing on the place where i was just standing about 4-5 times. She is 3 years old and not been taught to respect the persons space correctly, I think. The thing is...she does all those things with everyone else, but not her owner. At least I haven't seen her biting her owner. I have used the windmill (she ignores it and bites me instead). I have shut down my energy (ignores it and bites me or runs me over). Most of the time I try to make clear that "this is my space" I'm already too late, cause she is long gone, taking turns for next "runover" or grazing in the distance like nothing happened. All too often I find myself on the ground, groaning in pain. All the other horses have learned "who is who" as when a particular person comes, she/he comes for a particular horse and others basically continue doing what they do. Only she is always greeting everyone by running them over. I am getting really worried, cause me is me, but from time to time I bring some visitors to my horse and I really don't like the idea that they have to watch out for their life while finding their way around to see Ronja. So I have been thinking that I should let the owners see this particular topic and ask them to do something about it, but I don't know if they see the problem, cause the horse behaves really differently when they are around. But is there any suggestions what I can do to protect myself, so I wouldn't get bitten from behind unexpectadly almost every time I go to the pasture. (And this can't be just me doing something totally wrong, because almost every other person who goes to the pasture, experiences similar things).

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 7:00 pm 

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Sounds like a very dangerous behavior that was reinforced for this horse by being able to do this over and over again. Since this behavior is pretty regular could you have someone videotape or you videotape when another person who the horse does this to is dealing with it? The liability for the owner of this horse would be huge if someone get seriously hurt so that alone should make them want to know what their horse does to other people. If this horse will not easily back away from a lunge whip I would not even walk in there. What does the owner do to keep the horse from bullying them?
I assume you are boarding your horse at a barn where the barn owner decides who gets to do what (or is it the barn owners horse?) At any boarding place I've been at a horse like that would not be allowed to be in a group turn-out situation if it is non-aggressive to the other horses.
In the meantime, can you teach your horse to come all the way to the gate and then just use a lounge whip from the other side of the fence to keep this horse away long enough to get yours haltered and out?
Good luck,
Birgit
P.S. I just read over your post again, frankly I think this horse could kill someone. Even if you are willing to take the risk, wich I wouldn't, imagine a child accidentally getting in there,... please be completely open with the owners, it's better to hurt someone's feelings than for someone to get seriously hurt.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 9:37 pm 
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iidala wrote:
I have a problem. And the problem is not my own horse, but someone elses. My shoulder is blue as she has bit me almost every time I walk to the pasture. She has galloped over me about 10 times and reared in front of me landing on the place where i was just standing about 4-5 times. She is 3 years old and not been taught to respect the persons space correctly, I think. The thing is...she does all those things with everyone else, but not her owner. At least I haven't seen her biting her owner.

You have a small part of the problem. The owner has a much larger one. This horse has injured you. The owner and the BO both are now subject to legal action. Both and injury and mental suffering would be appropriate to explore with an attorney.

I understand that barn politics being what they are you have as yet not made a choice to pursue this, but a simple letter from an attorney (yours) to the BO and the horse owner stating the circumstances and the liability issues would likely quickly bring this horse to a separate holding area.

Your safety and that of others is being ignored.
iidala wrote:
I have used the windmill (she ignores it and bites me instead). I have shut down my energy (ignores it and bites me or runs me over). Most of the time I try to make clear that "this is my space" I'm already too late, cause she is long gone, taking turns for next "runover" or grazing in the distance like nothing happened. All too often I find myself on the ground, groaning in pain.

Never ever take that risk again. This horse could easily kill you let alone seriously injure you with this behavior.

Sadly, this horse believes she is doing the right thing and getting the desired results.
iidala wrote:

All the other horses have learned "who is who" as when a particular person comes, she/he comes for a particular horse and others basically continue doing what they do. Only she is always greeting everyone by running them over. I am getting really worried, cause me is me, but from time to time I bring some visitors to my horse and I really don't like the idea that they have to watch out for their life while finding their way around to see Ronja.

Those folks, and you as well, should never be in the presence of that horse without it being restrained by the owner (give you any ideas?).
iidala wrote:

So I have been thinking that I should let the owners see this particular topic and ask them to do something about it, but I don't know if they see the problem, cause the horse behaves really differently when they are around.

Chances are very good the owner knows. Since you are not the only boarder with this experience it's unlikely the owner doesn't know. The barn owner at the very least has heard from others. Have you talked to the barn owner? What has he or she said to you?
iidala wrote:

But is there any suggestions what I can do to protect myself, so I wouldn't get bitten from behind unexpectadly almost every time I go to the pasture. (And this can't be just me doing something totally wrong, because almost every other person who goes to the pasture, experiences similar things).


I can make no suggestions about being unexpectedly attacked, but I can about horse training.

The owner should be approached about training sessions with you and the horse - for that matter, others and the horse as well, where you and they take control from the ground, the horse being handed off by the owner. Even if that isn't one hundred percent a cure it is a starting place.

One will need to observe what takes place at that point, with both you and the owner on separate lines. I come from a cowboy background originally and we often trained (green breaking it's called) very reactive and dangerous horses, and it was common for two or three of us to put a rope on a horse while one person worked him from the ground. Even then there is risk, but this doesn't sound like one of those bangtails I worked with.

I hesitate to offer this one, but if I personally knew I MUST, absolutely MUST enter that field to get my horse for an emergency, I'd carry a boating air horn, fully charged, new.

I'd welcome the horse to come at me, just waiting. A series of quick blasts of the horn (don't make it continuous, that can provoke and attack) will turn just about anything. I, for instance, don't care much for protective sprays (other than for bears) but prefer the boat horn. I live in mountain lion country. I can assure you no lion would come through that wall of sound.

It's likely to be three or four times louder to a lion, a dog, and especially to a horse considering they all, and the last most, extremely sensitive hearing.

I would, though I don't suggest it to anyone else and in fact would caution against it unless you have either or both very fast legs and or a great deal of horse knowledge, pursue the horse about the pasture (never ever cornering it of course) and use the blasts to move it about a bit. I would control it's feet for it. That is how mares teach foals behavior. Discipline is usually a matter of mother mare moving the foal about. Moving tends stop other things from happening or ends those behaviors in the moment.

This is NOT training. This is punishment. You would be saying, essentially, "I am a bigger stronger horse than you and you will move when I say so."

You will have taught the horse nothing but to be afraid of you. NOT necessary desireable new behavior to replace the old behavior. Other animals might respond more with a desire to find a new behavior, but the horse will simply use their instinct, and run away when they hear this noise.

If you have never heard a cannister boat air horn you will be most surprised at the volume.

I run elk out of my gardens with it. I could move them with other means but in the Rut and bull elk in full antler I'd be taking my life in my hands to just run at them and yell. The air horn always moves them. Those bulls run up to 1,500 lbs and more. And have a lot more of a temper than that horse.

Now if I were the barn owner I'd offer the horse owner a little bargain - either move out or let old Uncle Don train that mare. To do that I might use the air horn, but I would have assistance and I would use it to "suggest," to the horse that approaching me safely is what will make the horse go away. That we can be quiet friends.

I wouldn't try to teach another how to do this, but operant conditioning would be my method. Positive reinforcement quickly replacing the punishment of the air horn. In fact I'd not likely even use an airhorn. I'd use a fence, some feed, and a little horsey teasing of the animal.

Let's say I'd use the old cavalry method that green horses were taught to not only tolerate the roar of battle, but to welcome it.

The bottom line?

Stay out of that enclosure entirely until you have safety insured. Get the barn owner thinking about their liability. Get the horse owner thinking about it as well.

Or, probably better, though I'm less socially responsible suggesting it, MOVE.

Find a better barn/pasture situation.

Where, may I ask, in the world are you located?

Who knows, you might be down the road from me. I love these kinds of challenges.

Donald

PS I fully agree with Birgit on the risk issue. This is a very dangerous situation. D

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 12:45 am 

Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 8:19 pm
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Location: Estonia, Tallinn
Thank you both for answering and giving me some ideas.
I live in Esonia, so not that close to you unfortunately, Don. : )
And I must say that Estonia is so small that we don't do attorneys...it's like hiring one for your own family or smthing. But thank you for suggesting that, anyway, it helps me to understand that I am not imagining this problem, but it really is a serious one.
The horse does not belong to the barn owners and the place is quite small and cosy. 4 boarding horses (including my Ronja and Vaim) and one horse of their own. I really like the people there (open-minded and warm and also interested in AND and so on) and I am not really planing on moving before I, myself, move to another town. The BO knows about the problem (they have the same problem...they deal with it by telling everyone to be aware) and I have talked about it with the horse owner (who is a very lovely and friendly woman, but I don't think she has that much experience with horses...) and she usually points out that "she is just so young".
I know a little about the horses backround also. What I've heard is that she was brought up with cows (no horses around) and so that explains why she has real trouble respecting other horses and the herd rules. I also know that she used to be the "foal of the village" as in everybody walked in to cuddle her and play with her and feed her treats.
I also know that she is a very fast learner (it is really easy to teach her to give legs and so on), but I feel that she lacks the real basics.
I know that this is not the kind of problem one could solve through the internet, but I am still really grateful for helpful answers. I have more confidence now to put together a "business" plan. I think my first step is to talk to the owner again and do it in a really clear way, so there wouldn't be any misunderstanding between us.

Btw, Ronja used to protect me from her and I used to take Ronja out to the other side where no other horse could reach us. But now she has a newborn foal to look after and I am also not comfortable with guiding Ronja out to the fenceless area with a foal yet. There are too many things that could go wrong. So the problem has turned into a real one. For now, Ronja and the foal have a smaller separate pasture, but to get there, I still have to cross the big one. And when we unite Ronja and Vaim with the rest of the horses again, I really don't have any good separating solutions in my hand. Ohwell. We'll see, got to do some serious talking.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:03 am 
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You've gotten fabulous advice from Birgit and Donald (I actually was going to suggest that you ask him for his thoughts when I read your post earlier -- had to leave and voila! he'd found your question.)

Only one last opinion from my end:

Quote:
I think my first step is to talk to the owner again and do it in a really clear way, so there wouldn't be any misunderstanding between us.


I'd do this, and I'd do it with the barn owner there so I could have a three way conversation about solutions.

No anger or anything (which it doesn't sound like you're doing, anyway!) but a very clear conversation about how this horse could seriously injure or kill someone. I think both the barn owner and the horse owner both need to help come up with an immediate solution to keep everyone safe and then figure out a training solution. They both have responsibilities to make sure people are safe.

Hope this is helpful! I think you're amazingly kind to not have completely lost your temper with anyone in this situation! :bowdown: ;)

Best,
Leigh

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