The Art of Natural Dressage

Working with the Horse's Initiative
It is currently Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:29 am

All times are UTC+01:00




Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 51 posts ]  Go to page Previous 1 2 3 4 Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: 4: Pesade and Levade
PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 3:15 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2007 5:47 pm
Posts: 302
Location: Grantville, PA
All on the ground. Right after teaching it he reared from the saddle when I asked for a back up and I verbally scolded him for it and he figured out that isn't what I want. I dont mind them mixing cues on the ground, but I do mind it rm the saddle, so I havn't gone there adn I don't know that I ever will- he can strengthen at liberty no prob ;)

I did get other steps of the canter pirouette before I had to stop playing with it, but the footfalls are not perfect- but body alignment is. He was realy bending in the rear t come around and that to me is much mor important than feet moving. If I can get hip to bend and leap at al the sme time at liberty or online, than later I should be able to get teh foot falls right under saddle and since he knows a similar feeling at liberty he will have an idea what to do when that canter circle gets smaller 8)

I'm SOOOOOOOOOO lovin it!!!!!

_________________
Learning to put the relationship first.


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: 4: Pesade and Levade
PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 5:14 pm 
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 17, 2007 8:18 pm
Posts: 4941
Location: Alberta
Cisco got confused at first too...between backing and rearing. I just had to make sure that my body language was very clearly different. At first, it wasn't, so it was easy for him to be confused. So along with a verbal NO (my no is from my clicker training with dogs...it's a monotone NO...not loud, and is to indicate that he's made the wrong choice - in fact, sometimes I also use the word "wrooooong" and of course no reward is forthcoming), I adjust my body lanuage to be as clear as I can that I want him to back up, and not rear. I will over do the body language a little. A bit more curve in my back (tilt my pelvis back more), keep my hands low. I also try to cue with my legs very differently...and of course being way more imperfect than my horses, sometimes I get it wrong and we still go up rather than backwards.

But again...it comes together. At first I worried it might become a habit, but just like every other confused response, it sorts itself out.

I'm so glad you're having fun Danee! Nice to hear from you again!

_________________
"Ride reverently, as if each step is the axis on which the earth revolves"


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: 4: Pesade and Levade
PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 5:39 pm 
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2007 8:20 am
Posts: 6050
Location: Dresden, Germany
Titum also moved backwards before the high rears for a while. He did not confuse those two exercises, it just seemed to be easier for him, so I did nothing against it... besides that, I felt that it gave his rears some extra improvement. Then there was a point when he just stopped it and now he mostly rears from a standstill.

Oh, and I also did nothing against walking backwards for maintainig his balance during the actual rear but just let him do - and at one point he changed to moving forwards and now we are getting the first steps of laufcourbette sometimes. :smile:


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: 4: Pesade and Levade
PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 7:34 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2007 5:47 pm
Posts: 302
Location: Grantville, PA
Quote:
Oh, and I also did nothing against walking backwards for maintainig his balance during the actual rear but just let him do - and at one point he changed to moving forwards and now we are getting the first steps of laufcourbette sometimes


Very interesting! I am glad to hear this. My horse is not moving his feet, but it is nice to hear that they can change the direction. I do not prefer the walking backwards in rear because to me it looks unbalanced- like they may topple over. That, and they are rearing SO darn high that I feel it is not as strengthenging (at least not as strengthning in the same way- i"m sure it takes many little muscle adjustments to hold that high rear!) I personally like the levade better so I like our little rears.

_________________
Learning to put the relationship first.


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: 4: Pesade and Levade
PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 11:37 pm 
Site Admin

Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 7:51 pm
Posts: 2055
Location: Netherlands
This is all so inspiring to read!

Over here the paddock is just so wet and muddy with all the rain that we can only occasionally practice all the upwards things. And because of the bad footage we practically only do the levade because it's so low and controlled.

Actually, that might be quite a good thing for now, because lately we seemed to mix the pesade, the laufcourbette and the courbette together. So because of this weather I have more time to figure out which cue/bodylanguage from me belongs to which exercise exactly. Lots to learn about it still! 8)

The levade on the other hand is going great! Blacky and I have figured out a common language on how to do the levade and when I place myself facing his shoulder, bend deep through my knees, point with one hand towards his hindhooves and the other to the other side asking him to do a low lift (instead of pointing upwards for a high lift), Blacky tucks under his hindlegs and lifts his frontquarters in a low, near horizontal rear from the ground. Still with the plank lying on the ground in front of us as a visual reminder (levade is done with the hindlegs behind, on top of or over the plank, pesade is everywhere else 8) ) but it has actually been going so well that now I've started asking Blacky to stay in the air a bit longer or move up in a levade twice before I reward. The funny thing is that he really likes this exercise - I suspect because of the plank, because Blacky seems to make a sport out of landing on top of it with both hooves at the same time, or jump over it or land behind it again, exactly where he lifted off. He actually became so good at the latter that I decided to only stimulate for a more forwards landing because otherwise he would step back after the levade every time with the hindlegs.

The levade is just such a great puzzle to work on together! :)

_________________

New horse book: Mandala horses!


Never stop making mistakes! Natural Dressage


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: 4: Pesade and Levade
PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 5:16 am 
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 20, 2007 5:52 am
Posts: 1852
Location: Taiwan, via NZ
Ah.... this is such a good idea Miriam, using a prop to differentiate! :idea: Would love to see this in a photo or video. Cheers,
Sue

_________________
Image
I have not sought the horse of bits, bridles, saddles and shackles,
But the horse of the wind, the horse of freedom, the horse of the dream. [Robert Vavra]


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: 4: Pesade and Levade
PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 5:25 am 
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2007 5:47 pm
Posts: 302
Location: Grantville, PA
Miriam, different hemisphere, but same problem- rain, mud, slippery footing!!! And Yes, I've been doing lots of nothing but some rearing work.

Today was super slippery so in the aisle be fore I fed him I asked for a few rears. They have been smaller lately which I dont mind, but he seems to be putting in less effort also. Anyways I asked for a few back to back before rewarding and he was very slow at getting intot he next rear, but then he gave a really high one. So obviuosly instead of thinking I wanted multiple rears, he thought I wanted higher- that the first two didn't count.


So... any ideas on teaching a diference between "I want a few small rears in succession," and, "I want one tall rear," and "I want you to stay longer in the rear." I can ask for "more rear" but he can interpret that anyway he wants and I am not sure how to help him find alternative answers.
It would be nice to do all three. I know I need to work out seperate signals for each, but I'm not sure how to initially get the three different responses.

I havn't done much targetting with him, because the little I did he was not ammused at all. So that isn't an option. NOt anytime soon anyways.

_________________
Learning to put the relationship first.


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: 4: Pesade and Levade
PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 6:08 am 
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 17, 2007 8:18 pm
Posts: 4941
Location: Alberta
I'm not Miriam...but...

For the small rears in succession...just spend more time rewarding each small one, until he's absolutely, positively sure what you want for that particular cue. Then ask for two. Reward. Then reward each one again. Then try three....then one, then one, then one, then two, etc.

But if he's offering different behaviors (or different heights in this case) then he's simply not sure that the low one is what you want. It's possible that by not rewarding each one, then he was within his operant conditioning rights to offer something different.

It just means he's not sure what you're rewarding for.

And I wouldn't throw anything else in the mix...duration, or elevation, until you are sure HE'S sure of what the first one means. But you'll have to find a cue that is novel enough not to confuse him with the low rear vs higher one. Maybe you add a touch of a whip under his rib cage to indicate height...or a touch on his legs to indicate duration...but repeated attemtps of the same behavior, and duration of a single behavior will be difficult for him to sort out. For that you must be patient and know that some confusion will occur.

But also...if you want to go back to classical roots...the levade...the low rear, is not a rear at all, but a lowering of the haunches with an elevated front end.

So I am spending a great deal of time with Tam, asking him to try and lower his haunches. This is stemming from the Goat, and the rein back, with just a touch of a lifted cordeo, to signal UP. But I'm clicking (as much as I can) before the front feet leave the ground...because I'm trying to isolate and reward for what the haunches are doing.

When Tam is strong enough to levade, simply holding the cordeo, back and up, should signal the duration.

I hope.

When it comes to pesade, I will change the cues...I may ask for back and up, but not ask for the sit (which, by the way, can be cued with a touch of the whip on top of the butt).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2R8Jj68pB2A

Study the horse's movement in this video. He takes a step back to even his hind feet, then he sits back into the lifting of the front end.

This requires a lot of trust on the horse's part...and an understanding to keep the hind feet in place and not just back up...when he's asked to sit into the levade. So perhpas you can find your difference there...that the levade is a backward motion...the pesade and rear may be more upward...and when leading to capriole or some other air that requires forward movement...more forward?

I guess what I'm saying is that the cue may stem form where you want the movements to end up in their finished form...or think ahead enough to visualize what you might do with a movement once it's perfected. Where can it go from there? So a high rear might be both hands in the air, and at some point, you may be able to vibrate them to indicate duration, or move yourself forward to ask the horse to walk forward while rearing...or leaping forward while staying on the hind legs...while a levade or pesade may be a touch on the top of the rump, along with a hand gesture to indicate height, or the raising and lowering and raising again of the front end.

Now isn't that a confusing mess I just typed? I'm too tired to edit it! :D :D

_________________
"Ride reverently, as if each step is the axis on which the earth revolves"


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: 4: Pesade and Levade
PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 2:52 am 
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2007 5:47 pm
Posts: 302
Location: Grantville, PA
Karen, you are obviously correct- I am just trying to figure out what I can do for each. I"ve been doing this completely at liberty and often no whip, so my cues have been limited to body, but I do think that working on a levade (and eventually more duration) could use a halter or cordeo. That way I can really signal the shift back. I did figure hands way above my head for full rear. I think if I focus on levade, the full rear will still be easy to get. maybe I'll just ignore multiples until we can sort out the levade better.

_________________
Learning to put the relationship first.


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: 4: Pesade and Levade
PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 2:21 pm 
Site Admin

Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 7:51 pm
Posts: 2055
Location: Netherlands
I'm working without tack, whip or cordeo as well and I think that your bodylanguage doesn't have to be a limitation of the possibilities to explain something to your horse. It's more a question of taking smaller steps when just working with visual signals, because you have to make sure that all the building blocks are placed correctly before you ask for more.

When lowering our pesade into a levade, I just focused first on the question if I could let Blacky step forwards with his hindlegs in halt as a preparation - and rewarded for that. Then when he did that (after about ten minutes actually, I just pointed at his hindlegs and bent through my knees and he experimented with how to copy that 8) ). Then combining that with the old rear, he soon started combining the two things into something of a levade.

Something with I thought could never happen, because of course you would need rains or ropes to tell the horse to go up and rock backwards in the same time... Because how of course could you tell it to him otherwise? 8)

_________________

New horse book: Mandala horses!


Never stop making mistakes! Natural Dressage


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: 4: Pesade and Levade
PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 2:55 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 4:10 am
Posts: 3688
Location: Pacific Northwest U.S.
In observing the AND folks that work with mimicry so much it occurs to me that long before one can do Haute Ecole through mimicry, one must start with tiny steps.

And start with mimicking the horse to establish that connection - I mimic you, then you mimic me.

While this seems simplistic I think it needs to be pointed to from time to time.

And the quality of later work through mimicry comes from the very careful though more simple work early in training.

I look forward with happy anticipation and expectation from your inspiration to do this with Altea.

At present we are simply in the "caring for you," mode. Where we feed, water, groom, trim, clean up after, as our main activities. And because I've been so engrossed in the building of La Palacio, I've taken almost no time to really be with Altea and let her puzzle out what I'm doing there.

With her home (in a week I hope -- no more) I'll have times to be with her more leisurely and thoughtfully.

And before the first experiments with mimicry must come the trust building, the relationship development. I can hardly wait.

Donald

_________________
Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: 4: Pesade and Levade
PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 9:43 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2007 5:47 pm
Posts: 302
Location: Grantville, PA
I don't think that working without whip or cordeo is limiting, but for my particular horse and for my style and knowledge, some type of line would be more clear. My horse really appreciates the direct communication and he often askes for more leadership. Asia was the same way so I am sure it is me, but when I first started AND Asia hated it because I wents from all pressure and release to waiting for her to do somthing- she was so cunfused that she quit doing anything for me. I took a sabtical from AND, figured a way to combien AND with what I already know as opposed to stopping and starting over, and my mare was much happier for it. With Rave I started more positive reward right away, but he still likes how clear pressure can be.

Miriam, I do feel you have a slight advantage working with ponies. If you want to point to a frount foot and than immediatly a hind foot you can do so without moving your body and without needing a stick to get close enough to be clear. Not saying you couldn't do the same things with larger horses. I guess I am just pointing out the obvious.

And in reference to Donald, Rave and I are going back to straight basics for awhile. His hind right somthings gets inflamed after a hard workout. I am blaming it on not working at that intensity regularly enough to maintain that type of fitness coupled with crappy footing. So no rearing for awhile (the rearing never seemed to cuase the inflamation but he didn't want to rear towards the end of a hard workout. Forward riding and transitions seem to bother him most.)

So we will work on basic yeilds and slow mimicy stuff. I plan to do more from behind him and spruce up his sideways games. Than we'll get back to levade work.

_________________
Learning to put the relationship first.


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: 4: Pesade and Levade
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 4:57 pm 
Site Admin

Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 7:51 pm
Posts: 2055
Location: Netherlands
danee wrote:
Miriam, I do feel you have a slight advantage working with ponies. If you want to point to a frount foot and than immediatly a hind foot you can do so without moving your body and without needing a stick to get close enough to be clear. Not saying you couldn't do the same things with larger horses. I guess I am just pointing out the obvious.
.


Ah, but I disagree! 8)
For one, my goal isn't to have invisible bodylanguage, just to have clear bodylanguage. So I also bend down through my knees a lot in order to ask them to do that, stretch my arm entirely towards their hindquarters for the hindlegs, and bend down to ask the frontlegs to rise in a Spanish walk.

I actually believe the complete opposite, in that the ponies are so small that causes them to miss 40% of my visual signals when I'm working close to them, simply because horses can't look up that well due to their heavy eyebrows. That means that if I'm walking next to Sjors, at 50 cm next to his head, his eye is at the height of my hip and he can't see any hand- or shouldermovement from my navel upwards. If I want him to see something that I do with my shoulders, I need to be at least two meters away from him, because otherwise he misses it. So I can't really use that much handsignals when working close to them, or have to bend down in order to make them visible. I actually consciously give a lot of cues with my legs, hips and pelvis, simply because I've notice that they respond to that a lot better than to shouldermovements as they at least can always see the first.

Which is quite interesting, because that would mean that if I walk next to Blacky and Sjors, for them I'm nothing more than a pair of jeans... :green:

_________________

New horse book: Mandala horses!


Never stop making mistakes! Natural Dressage


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: 4: Pesade and Levade
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 5:17 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2008 8:52 pm
Posts: 30
Quote:
Which is quite interesting, because that would mean that if I walk next to Blacky and Sjors, for them I'm nothing more than a pair of jeans...


Now this really had me laughing!! :green: :D

_________________
The greatest thing you'll ever learn, is just to love and be loved in return....


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: 4: Pesade and Levade
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 5:21 pm 
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2008 2:32 am
Posts: 3270
Location: New York
Anne wrote:
Quote:
Which is quite interesting, because that would mean that if I walk next to Blacky and Sjors, for them I'm nothing more than a pair of jeans...


Now this really had me laughing!! :green: :D


Me too!

I had the image from the Wallace and Gromitt episode "The Wrong Trousers!"
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

:)
Leigh

_________________
"Ours is the portal of hope. Come as you are." -- Rumi
www.imaginalinstitute.com


Top
   
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 51 posts ]  Go to page Previous 1 2 3 4 Next

All times are UTC+01:00


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Limited Color scheme created with Colorize It.