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 Post subject: 4: Pesade and Levade
PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 1:02 pm 
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Pesade and levade
Rearing in collection

***
Duration

I just found a video on youtube (duration in rearing, from minute 01:03) and thought that it would be a nice new task for Titum and me to work on that. The man in the video seems to work with his whip as a target, but I wanted to ask if maybe someone has other ideas how to train it. First because Tit has just learned to rear more round lately and I don't know if I want to encourage a hollow back again more than necessary and the second thing is that he isn't that fond of following the tiger in a rear, so it would take us ages. ;)

What helps in our case to make the rears slower and longer is when I stand next to him at the height of his ribcage and bend my knees a bit, like mentally pulling him backwards. :funny:

Any other suggestions?


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 8:18 pm 
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I noticed that often people stand beside the horse's shoulder touching the horse during the rear. Maybe that could work as a signal for the duration?
I could imagine it does support and give more balance to the horse even. Bit like when one stands on one leg, just touching with the small finger a wall does help to keep the balance much better.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 4:13 am 
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I would like suggestions on this as well. Also any suggestions for getting the rear lower or improved in general!

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 10:45 am 
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What I did with Blacky, is a combination of things. So pick and choose! 8)

First of all, Blacky knows that when I start counting out loud, he should try to keep up that specific behavior longer. I taught him the counting when we taught him not to touch food if there wasn't a click first. First you accept when he only turns his head away one second, but then you start asking for a longer no-touching, which you can communicate very easily to your horse by starting to count out loud. The first x time you reward right after one, then when that goes well, you only reward when you've come to two etc.
When you start asking more seconds, sometimes your horse won't keep up the behavior (dive back to the food, get down from rearing, get up from the bow etc.), then you just ask the behavior again and start counting from one again. Very soon they learn that it's easier to hold that exercise than to start-stop-start all the time.

However, if he isn't physically able to hold the exercise longer, he will have no choice but to stop all the time after x seconds, so it's something you ('re forced to 8) ) build up slowly!

So with Blacky's rear, I asked him to rear and then started counting and when he went down again I asked him to go up again, counted two seconds and rewarded. He can now do 4 to 5 seconds on a good day, 8) and I don't need him to stand much longer so we don't really train that for now.

Another thing, just like Romy experienced, is that a reeeeaaaaly slow rear strengthens your horse a dozen times as much as a quick tossing back the head and lifting the forelegs along. That's what Blacky did in the past, and it was quite ugly. :roll: :wink: As I wanted him to do a collected pesade and not a hollow-backed rear, I started giving him lots of preparational signals with my body before I actually asked for the rear to go up. So indeed bending my knees , pointing to his hindlegs in order to tell him to bring them under his body, sagging further through my knees in order to tell the same to his hindlegs, and only then (after ten to twenty seconds of preparing like this) when Blacky looked really ready and collected in his hindquarters, I would lift my hand and ask for the pesade - and reward immediately for the slightest upwards lift! So no need to go all the way up for now, as the collection comes from a good start and that actually is the most tough part for the horse. When you click for collection like this, it's also an opening to the levade, which is only possible if your horse really has learned to be extremely conscious of his movements while lifting off, and strong enough to do the initial lift out of his pelvis, very collected.
I think I did that for quite a long time, the big preparation and only a small rear to top it off, in order to really get the rear to be a collected and conscious process, also because I was as much interested in the pesade and the levade!

However, you can't slow your preparation phase up too much, because at some point your horse will stand forwards so much with his hindlegs (collected), that he then really needs to lift off with his frontlegs, because otherwise he 'locks up' his frontlegs because he starts leaning on them too much. Then you get a mountain goat posture which is great in itself, but doesn't lead to a pesade that easily because most of the bodyweight is on the frontlegs then.

Now he really thinks about how to go up and does it way more collected (he has a nice pesade in the Youtube video on Haute Ecole) than before when it was very fast and hollow. And slowing the pesade down also gave us time to do things in that pesade, like the laufcourbette and the real jump courbette. When he still was in the hollow-backed-fling the head up phase, he simply didn't have any control over his hindfeet and wouldn't have been able to do anything more than just keep balance with them.



(And now I come to think of it, let's turn this into a sticky on rearing/pesade/levade! :D )

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 2:24 pm 
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Quote:
big preparation and only a small rear to top it off

Why are things so obvious when someone else says them? Thanks!

I initially asked for the rear by jumping up and down. Since I can't hold my jump this signal ian't really working for me, but it was an excellent way to teach it since he understood it pretty well.
I"m slowly changing it to a lifting of my hands and tapping his crest in front of the withers. This gives the same verticle-ness without me having to hover. :wink:

I don't work on it often though because rearing has already become his ground work default. "I'm confused- I know! I'll rear!"

How about backing into the rear? Has anyone played with that much?

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 2:35 pm 
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danee wrote:
How about backing into the rear? Has anyone played with that much?


Yep, Titum does this all the time at the moment, it´s one of his favourites... but as I have never done this with him on purpose, I have never consciously compared the effects of that to how he does the normal rears without running backwards first - I only know that he takes his hindlegs much further under his body when he has gone backwards before. I will watch it more closely and report what I will see later. :)


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 2:54 pm 
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I know of a method of asking the horse to back up fast in order to teach him to rear as a kind of protest against the backing up, but have never used it myself, because backing up is a tricky exercise when it comes to the emotions of your horse, especially when the backing up is only done on cue and if you use quite some energy in order to get your horse to back up fast enough that he goes up. Going up out of such a backing up often also is out of protest against the backing up.

Then over time you lower the energy and the horse will realise that backing up doesn't have to be associated with negative emotions or feeling under pressure, but I think it's risky to connect rearing with frustration, especially in the beginning when teaching your horse to rear. If later the horse becomes frustrated during training, rearing quickly becomes a (risky) default behavior as the horse in the past has learned that this behavior is connected to that feeling.

I have thought about using the back up in order to collect Blacky for the pesade, but never really have used it like that because out of the back up Blacky would only get up by tossing his head back and lifting his frontquarters with a hollow back. Maybe now he is more collected in the rear, he will be able to back up collected and then rear out of it, but as I would like to see the rear more as a forwards exercise (because of the jumps etc.) I don't think I'll try it with him. But I can imagine that some horses who already back up nicely collected, get a better rear out of that too. Just be careful that you don't place your horse under too much mental pressure by sending him back into a rear all the time.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 3:10 pm 
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That´s exactly why I would not ask for backing up and then rearing. In fact, I hardly ever ask for backing up at all, only if he stands in the way and I need him to move one step or two. But Titum loves to walk backwards very quickly. I am reluctant to reward this, but sometimes I do - he just does it so nicely.

In the last weeks he has started to combine backing up with rearing - I have never asked him for that and also our rear cues are only a suggestion and no pressure (except for the pressure of being asked at all). I wondered if I should ask him not to do this, but then I think if that´s what he wants, it can´t be so wrong or unpleasant for him?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 4:00 pm 
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Evita also did the backing up and rearing for a while.. and suddenly she didn't do it anymore... I guess indeed let the horse decide but keep your body language in mind.. if you are not 'backing up' yourself ;)

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 Post subject: Re: 4: Pesade and Levade
PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 1:47 am 
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Sunrise is right at the beginning of rear work. She's not a very "reary" sort of horse, unlike Rosie (for whom rear used to be a fifth gait! ;) ) or Harlequin who thinks it's a fun way to torture smaller horses. So her rears are very small, but I'm very pleased with the level of controlled effort she's putting in, without resorting to tossing her head up....possibly because she never HAS gone up as a result of fear or inescapable pressure. She's doing it by leaning back onto her hindlegs and crouching a little, then lightening up her front end, then lifting. If I support her by standing beside her, and moving slightly back with a hand on her chest, she will start with a half step back and nose flexed towards my hand before lifting, and this seems to have really helped her to have control over it. So.. this is what "backing up before the rear" means to us. :)

I used a target the first couple of times to show her where I wanted her to be, but then tossed it away, because it made her just reach up with her neck, and be too stretched out to achieve the lift. Luckily, she'd understood what I was asking, even though she couldn't do it this way, and so when I asked again with just my hands lifting as the signal, she responded!

Sue

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 Post subject: Re: 4: Pesade and Levade
PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 4:53 am 
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I have a really abandoned the attempt of a rear with Tam for now, because I want to spend as much time as possible on the correctness of the movement...because he is leaning more towards a levade than a rear, I thought I would work instead on shaping the hind end more towards sitting, rather than the front end lifting.

It's not REALLY a sit...but a bend of the hocks and the hind legs well under him is my goal. He's a bit confused by it at the moment because I'm literally asking him to back up (really, lean back), lift up (raise the base of the neck) and do a Goat (bring the hind legs under) all at the same time as I'm adding a brand new cue for it all...touching the whip to the top of his butt. But darn, he's trying so hard. I'm rewarding for very tiny tries at the moment to keep him happy and to keep him from being worried. He will pop his front end off the ground a few inches now and again, but I'm really ignoring it. I'm just watcing what his haunches and hind legs are doing.

Funny thing is, in playing around with Cisco, I tried it with him too, and he's actually getting it faster than tam. That really surprised me. The hardest thing for Cisco is to keep his head down. He really wants to throw it up as if he's going to rear. So I hope by convincing him that I only want the set up, and not the actual rearing up, that he too will see that he can keep his head down and perhaps even ramener. I would rather have all the elements that go into it very correct, than have the actual movement. But I think that once the set up is perfectly in place, we can then work on lifting the front feet again...but in a much more controlled way.

Still...tiny tries. But I think as a strengthening exercise, just setting up for a levade (like you are doing Sue!!!)...whether or not one actually does one or not...is a very good muscle and balance exercise!

Now if either of my horses showed me they would like to rear up like Titum, I would not worry about set up at all...that is a lovely, fantastic movement in itself...with balance and self control built in...but neither of my boys is quite that agile that they can stand up so high and straight...and then possibly move it forward??? In my dreams!

So I figure if it's levade they want, then we'll work on making it a proper one!

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 Post subject: Re: 4: Pesade and Levade
PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 8:29 am 
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Karen wrote:
Now if either of my horses showed me they would like to rear up like Titum, I would not worry about set up at all...that is a lovely, fantastic movement in itself...with balance and self control built in...but neither of my boys is quite that agile that they can stand up so high and straight...and then possibly move it forward??? In my dreams!
Just inserting the link to Titum´s recent rearing video here, so that other people will know what you are talking about...

Quote:
So I figure if it's levade they want, then we'll work on making it a proper one!
That´s great. And although I like the high and long rears that he is offering at the moment, they do have the cost of not being as correct as I would like them to be. Titum has phases in which he prefers different rears and we are just coming out of a period with more levade-like low rears where he first places his hindlegs under his body, then lifts one frontleg and then slowly stands up with the other. When he is in an energetic mood, he even adds a little ramener. Unfortunately in the high rears he forgets all about that, as you can see in the video where he pulls up his head and hops upwards. But I think with time he will learn to combine the good things of both movements and take some duration from the high rears over to the levade-like rears and some correctness the other way. :smile:


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 Post subject: Re: 4: Pesade and Levade
PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 5:05 pm 
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I think if a horse's head is free to do as it needs in such a high rearing, then they would use it just as Titum does. Don't you think?

I can't imagine it any more "correct" than it is, although if it can be, then Titum will show us how it's done!

Doesn't this remind you of Titum (see link) - but even more magical since you are free in a pasture and not in front of a crowd with lights and noise? There is a peace in watching Titum, because we know it's come about through play and not a concerted training effort with a specific goal.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dmu7GzoSl44&NR=1

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 Post subject: Re: 4: Pesade and Levade
PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 1:22 am 
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The horse on the video backed into his rear and I really didn't like it at all- especially since he backed IN his rear which I really don't want.

So my update: My presignal has pretty much became my signal- I gather myself up and he rears. While I will try to cut this out later he rears for just about everything right now and I like it because he has gotten so much more balanced and noticibly stronger. :applause:

When I ask for a cantr or back up I gather myself up as a presignal to prepare for those manuvers since they both erequire the horse to shift his weight and lift in front. Well, Rave is confusing both of those for rear. For now I don't mind because at the slightest gathering on my part creates a huge gathering onhis part ( :applause: again :D )

One day I wanted canter and he kept rearing. Eventually he figured out what I wanted but still had rear onhis mind, and he gave me a perfect one step of a canter pirouette- jack pot!!!! Our footing is bad so I have not gotten to play with this much, But I am confiednt that he will figure it out quickly once we can play with it more.

Thank you AND!!!! I would NEVER be getting this stuff with my horse if it weren't for you guys!!! All along you've been saying how simple it is and I never 'got it'. Well, I'm finally starting to!!!

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 Post subject: Re: 4: Pesade and Levade
PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 2:45 am 
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YAY Danee!! :clap: :clap:

Pictures??

I also don't get too excited about mixed cues. It all gets sorted out in the end. At least it has so far.

But to me, if a horse can move his feet at ALL while rearing (like Titum can...my horses so far can't), then which direction he goes can be shaped later. Simply having the agility to walk even one step while on two legs would be a wonderful abiltiy to play with!

Have you done it under saddle as well, or is this what you're referring to?

I love to ask CIsco to rear up under saddle. I still have to set him up (I cue a partial Goat from the saddle) for it, or he steps backward in preparation for it. If I ask him to step under he keeps his feet still. So far though, he hasn't figured out to set himself up. I must be missing something in my cuing. I will work on it!

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 Post subject: Re: 4: Pesade and Levade
PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 3:15 pm 
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All on the ground. Right after teaching it he reared from the saddle when I asked for a back up and I verbally scolded him for it and he figured out that isn't what I want. I dont mind them mixing cues on the ground, but I do mind it rm the saddle, so I havn't gone there adn I don't know that I ever will- he can strengthen at liberty no prob ;)

I did get other steps of the canter pirouette before I had to stop playing with it, but the footfalls are not perfect- but body alignment is. He was realy bending in the rear t come around and that to me is much mor important than feet moving. If I can get hip to bend and leap at al the sme time at liberty or online, than later I should be able to get teh foot falls right under saddle and since he knows a similar feeling at liberty he will have an idea what to do when that canter circle gets smaller 8)

I'm SOOOOOOOOOO lovin it!!!!!

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 Post subject: Re: 4: Pesade and Levade
PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 5:14 pm 
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Cisco got confused at first too...between backing and rearing. I just had to make sure that my body language was very clearly different. At first, it wasn't, so it was easy for him to be confused. So along with a verbal NO (my no is from my clicker training with dogs...it's a monotone NO...not loud, and is to indicate that he's made the wrong choice - in fact, sometimes I also use the word "wrooooong" and of course no reward is forthcoming), I adjust my body lanuage to be as clear as I can that I want him to back up, and not rear. I will over do the body language a little. A bit more curve in my back (tilt my pelvis back more), keep my hands low. I also try to cue with my legs very differently...and of course being way more imperfect than my horses, sometimes I get it wrong and we still go up rather than backwards.

But again...it comes together. At first I worried it might become a habit, but just like every other confused response, it sorts itself out.

I'm so glad you're having fun Danee! Nice to hear from you again!

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 Post subject: Re: 4: Pesade and Levade
PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 5:39 pm 
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Titum also moved backwards before the high rears for a while. He did not confuse those two exercises, it just seemed to be easier for him, so I did nothing against it... besides that, I felt that it gave his rears some extra improvement. Then there was a point when he just stopped it and now he mostly rears from a standstill.

Oh, and I also did nothing against walking backwards for maintainig his balance during the actual rear but just let him do - and at one point he changed to moving forwards and now we are getting the first steps of laufcourbette sometimes. :smile:


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 Post subject: Re: 4: Pesade and Levade
PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 7:34 pm 
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Quote:
Oh, and I also did nothing against walking backwards for maintainig his balance during the actual rear but just let him do - and at one point he changed to moving forwards and now we are getting the first steps of laufcourbette sometimes


Very interesting! I am glad to hear this. My horse is not moving his feet, but it is nice to hear that they can change the direction. I do not prefer the walking backwards in rear because to me it looks unbalanced- like they may topple over. That, and they are rearing SO darn high that I feel it is not as strengthenging (at least not as strengthning in the same way- i"m sure it takes many little muscle adjustments to hold that high rear!) I personally like the levade better so I like our little rears.

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 Post subject: Re: 4: Pesade and Levade
PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 11:37 pm 
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This is all so inspiring to read!

Over here the paddock is just so wet and muddy with all the rain that we can only occasionally practice all the upwards things. And because of the bad footage we practically only do the levade because it's so low and controlled.

Actually, that might be quite a good thing for now, because lately we seemed to mix the pesade, the laufcourbette and the courbette together. So because of this weather I have more time to figure out which cue/bodylanguage from me belongs to which exercise exactly. Lots to learn about it still! 8)

The levade on the other hand is going great! Blacky and I have figured out a common language on how to do the levade and when I place myself facing his shoulder, bend deep through my knees, point with one hand towards his hindhooves and the other to the other side asking him to do a low lift (instead of pointing upwards for a high lift), Blacky tucks under his hindlegs and lifts his frontquarters in a low, near horizontal rear from the ground. Still with the plank lying on the ground in front of us as a visual reminder (levade is done with the hindlegs behind, on top of or over the plank, pesade is everywhere else 8) ) but it has actually been going so well that now I've started asking Blacky to stay in the air a bit longer or move up in a levade twice before I reward. The funny thing is that he really likes this exercise - I suspect because of the plank, because Blacky seems to make a sport out of landing on top of it with both hooves at the same time, or jump over it or land behind it again, exactly where he lifted off. He actually became so good at the latter that I decided to only stimulate for a more forwards landing because otherwise he would step back after the levade every time with the hindlegs.

The levade is just such a great puzzle to work on together! :)

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 Post subject: Re: 4: Pesade and Levade
PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 5:16 am 
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Ah.... this is such a good idea Miriam, using a prop to differentiate! :idea: Would love to see this in a photo or video. Cheers,
Sue

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 Post subject: Re: 4: Pesade and Levade
PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 5:25 am 
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Miriam, different hemisphere, but same problem- rain, mud, slippery footing!!! And Yes, I've been doing lots of nothing but some rearing work.

Today was super slippery so in the aisle be fore I fed him I asked for a few rears. They have been smaller lately which I dont mind, but he seems to be putting in less effort also. Anyways I asked for a few back to back before rewarding and he was very slow at getting intot he next rear, but then he gave a really high one. So obviuosly instead of thinking I wanted multiple rears, he thought I wanted higher- that the first two didn't count.


So... any ideas on teaching a diference between "I want a few small rears in succession," and, "I want one tall rear," and "I want you to stay longer in the rear." I can ask for "more rear" but he can interpret that anyway he wants and I am not sure how to help him find alternative answers.
It would be nice to do all three. I know I need to work out seperate signals for each, but I'm not sure how to initially get the three different responses.

I havn't done much targetting with him, because the little I did he was not ammused at all. So that isn't an option. NOt anytime soon anyways.

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 Post subject: Re: 4: Pesade and Levade
PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 6:08 am 
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I'm not Miriam...but...

For the small rears in succession...just spend more time rewarding each small one, until he's absolutely, positively sure what you want for that particular cue. Then ask for two. Reward. Then reward each one again. Then try three....then one, then one, then one, then two, etc.

But if he's offering different behaviors (or different heights in this case) then he's simply not sure that the low one is what you want. It's possible that by not rewarding each one, then he was within his operant conditioning rights to offer something different.

It just means he's not sure what you're rewarding for.

And I wouldn't throw anything else in the mix...duration, or elevation, until you are sure HE'S sure of what the first one means. But you'll have to find a cue that is novel enough not to confuse him with the low rear vs higher one. Maybe you add a touch of a whip under his rib cage to indicate height...or a touch on his legs to indicate duration...but repeated attemtps of the same behavior, and duration of a single behavior will be difficult for him to sort out. For that you must be patient and know that some confusion will occur.

But also...if you want to go back to classical roots...the levade...the low rear, is not a rear at all, but a lowering of the haunches with an elevated front end.

So I am spending a great deal of time with Tam, asking him to try and lower his haunches. This is stemming from the Goat, and the rein back, with just a touch of a lifted cordeo, to signal UP. But I'm clicking (as much as I can) before the front feet leave the ground...because I'm trying to isolate and reward for what the haunches are doing.

When Tam is strong enough to levade, simply holding the cordeo, back and up, should signal the duration.

I hope.

When it comes to pesade, I will change the cues...I may ask for back and up, but not ask for the sit (which, by the way, can be cued with a touch of the whip on top of the butt).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2R8Jj68pB2A

Study the horse's movement in this video. He takes a step back to even his hind feet, then he sits back into the lifting of the front end.

This requires a lot of trust on the horse's part...and an understanding to keep the hind feet in place and not just back up...when he's asked to sit into the levade. So perhpas you can find your difference there...that the levade is a backward motion...the pesade and rear may be more upward...and when leading to capriole or some other air that requires forward movement...more forward?

I guess what I'm saying is that the cue may stem form where you want the movements to end up in their finished form...or think ahead enough to visualize what you might do with a movement once it's perfected. Where can it go from there? So a high rear might be both hands in the air, and at some point, you may be able to vibrate them to indicate duration, or move yourself forward to ask the horse to walk forward while rearing...or leaping forward while staying on the hind legs...while a levade or pesade may be a touch on the top of the rump, along with a hand gesture to indicate height, or the raising and lowering and raising again of the front end.

Now isn't that a confusing mess I just typed? I'm too tired to edit it! :D :D

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 Post subject: Re: 4: Pesade and Levade
PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 2:52 am 
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Karen, you are obviously correct- I am just trying to figure out what I can do for each. I"ve been doing this completely at liberty and often no whip, so my cues have been limited to body, but I do think that working on a levade (and eventually more duration) could use a halter or cordeo. That way I can really signal the shift back. I did figure hands way above my head for full rear. I think if I focus on levade, the full rear will still be easy to get. maybe I'll just ignore multiples until we can sort out the levade better.

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 Post subject: Re: 4: Pesade and Levade
PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 2:21 pm 
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I'm working without tack, whip or cordeo as well and I think that your bodylanguage doesn't have to be a limitation of the possibilities to explain something to your horse. It's more a question of taking smaller steps when just working with visual signals, because you have to make sure that all the building blocks are placed correctly before you ask for more.

When lowering our pesade into a levade, I just focused first on the question if I could let Blacky step forwards with his hindlegs in halt as a preparation - and rewarded for that. Then when he did that (after about ten minutes actually, I just pointed at his hindlegs and bent through my knees and he experimented with how to copy that 8) ). Then combining that with the old rear, he soon started combining the two things into something of a levade.

Something with I thought could never happen, because of course you would need rains or ropes to tell the horse to go up and rock backwards in the same time... Because how of course could you tell it to him otherwise? 8)

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 Post subject: Re: 4: Pesade and Levade
PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 2:55 pm 
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In observing the AND folks that work with mimicry so much it occurs to me that long before one can do Haute Ecole through mimicry, one must start with tiny steps.

And start with mimicking the horse to establish that connection - I mimic you, then you mimic me.

While this seems simplistic I think it needs to be pointed to from time to time.

And the quality of later work through mimicry comes from the very careful though more simple work early in training.

I look forward with happy anticipation and expectation from your inspiration to do this with Altea.

At present we are simply in the "caring for you," mode. Where we feed, water, groom, trim, clean up after, as our main activities. And because I've been so engrossed in the building of La Palacio, I've taken almost no time to really be with Altea and let her puzzle out what I'm doing there.

With her home (in a week I hope -- no more) I'll have times to be with her more leisurely and thoughtfully.

And before the first experiments with mimicry must come the trust building, the relationship development. I can hardly wait.

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 Post subject: Re: 4: Pesade and Levade
PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 9:43 pm 
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I don't think that working without whip or cordeo is limiting, but for my particular horse and for my style and knowledge, some type of line would be more clear. My horse really appreciates the direct communication and he often askes for more leadership. Asia was the same way so I am sure it is me, but when I first started AND Asia hated it because I wents from all pressure and release to waiting for her to do somthing- she was so cunfused that she quit doing anything for me. I took a sabtical from AND, figured a way to combien AND with what I already know as opposed to stopping and starting over, and my mare was much happier for it. With Rave I started more positive reward right away, but he still likes how clear pressure can be.

Miriam, I do feel you have a slight advantage working with ponies. If you want to point to a frount foot and than immediatly a hind foot you can do so without moving your body and without needing a stick to get close enough to be clear. Not saying you couldn't do the same things with larger horses. I guess I am just pointing out the obvious.

And in reference to Donald, Rave and I are going back to straight basics for awhile. His hind right somthings gets inflamed after a hard workout. I am blaming it on not working at that intensity regularly enough to maintain that type of fitness coupled with crappy footing. So no rearing for awhile (the rearing never seemed to cuase the inflamation but he didn't want to rear towards the end of a hard workout. Forward riding and transitions seem to bother him most.)

So we will work on basic yeilds and slow mimicy stuff. I plan to do more from behind him and spruce up his sideways games. Than we'll get back to levade work.

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 Post subject: Re: 4: Pesade and Levade
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 4:57 pm 
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danee wrote:
Miriam, I do feel you have a slight advantage working with ponies. If you want to point to a frount foot and than immediatly a hind foot you can do so without moving your body and without needing a stick to get close enough to be clear. Not saying you couldn't do the same things with larger horses. I guess I am just pointing out the obvious.
.


Ah, but I disagree! 8)
For one, my goal isn't to have invisible bodylanguage, just to have clear bodylanguage. So I also bend down through my knees a lot in order to ask them to do that, stretch my arm entirely towards their hindquarters for the hindlegs, and bend down to ask the frontlegs to rise in a Spanish walk.

I actually believe the complete opposite, in that the ponies are so small that causes them to miss 40% of my visual signals when I'm working close to them, simply because horses can't look up that well due to their heavy eyebrows. That means that if I'm walking next to Sjors, at 50 cm next to his head, his eye is at the height of my hip and he can't see any hand- or shouldermovement from my navel upwards. If I want him to see something that I do with my shoulders, I need to be at least two meters away from him, because otherwise he misses it. So I can't really use that much handsignals when working close to them, or have to bend down in order to make them visible. I actually consciously give a lot of cues with my legs, hips and pelvis, simply because I've notice that they respond to that a lot better than to shouldermovements as they at least can always see the first.

Which is quite interesting, because that would mean that if I walk next to Blacky and Sjors, for them I'm nothing more than a pair of jeans... :green:

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 Post subject: Re: 4: Pesade and Levade
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 5:17 pm 
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Quote:
Which is quite interesting, because that would mean that if I walk next to Blacky and Sjors, for them I'm nothing more than a pair of jeans...


Now this really had me laughing!! :green: :D

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 Post subject: Re: 4: Pesade and Levade
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 5:21 pm 
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Anne wrote:
Quote:
Which is quite interesting, because that would mean that if I walk next to Blacky and Sjors, for them I'm nothing more than a pair of jeans...


Now this really had me laughing!! :green: :D


Me too!

I had the image from the Wallace and Gromitt episode "The Wrong Trousers!"
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

:)
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 Post subject: Re: 4: Pesade and Levade
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 5:34 pm 
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Quote:
Me too!

I had the image from the Wallace and Gromitt episode "The Wrong Trousers!"



Leigh


??? I don't think I've seen that one... :green:

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 Post subject: Re: 4: Pesade and Levade
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 5:37 pm 
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Oh, it's one of my favorites (but I think my all time favorite is A Close Shave) -- but in this one, Wallace invents a pair of "techno trousers" -- robotic trouser legs that can take Gromit for a walk so he doesn't have to bother, and of course everything goes wrong, and of course Gromit saves the day...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wrong_Trousers

:green:

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 Post subject: Re: 4: Pesade and Levade
PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 2:29 am 
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Leigh, we have similar tastes in hilarity! I have the whole collection here... but my favourite (although I do admit that A Close Shave is pretty hard to beat) is A Grand Day Out. What wouldn't we do for a piece of Wensleydale? :green: And have you seen the Cracking Contraptions shorts? The ingenuity is superb! Love the automated cheese buying misssion contraption...Apollo 13?

Miriam, I've found this too.. giving clear cues to the ponies provides it's own challenges because of their height issues.. Also working with a very tall horse.. any close up work and they're looking right over your head. (I guess our medium sized girls are just perfect Leigh! :green: )

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 Post subject: Re: 4: Pesade and Levade
PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 5:32 pm 
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Miraim, no wonder you do so much kneeling- that is six to nine inches of torso you can add in there. Ya know, that parellis have people see what they can encourage their horse to do while sitting in a chair- maybe that's not a bad idea!

So anyways, pesade and levade??? :huh:

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 Post subject: Re: 4: Pesade and Levade
PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 12:06 am 
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danee wrote:
So... any ideas on teaching a diference between "I want a few small rears in succession," and, "I want one tall rear," and "I want you to stay longer in the rear." I can ask for "more rear" but he can interpret that anyway he wants and I am not sure how to help him find alternative answers.


What I did for differentiating between then, was practicing the three in different places:

- Levade: with a pole lying on the ground in front of the front feet (Blacky can choose if he jumps over it in levade, or stays on the same side). The pole actually helped him at first to keep the rear low because now he was focused on getting over it instead of going up. Later on he stayed on the same side and collected the levade more and more.
- Pesade: In the middle of th paddock
- Walk courbette: I ask for the pesade and add the voice cue for walk, and Blacky walks forwards on his hindlegs
- Terre a terre: more levades after another (without the pole)
- Courbette jump: out of the terre a terre in order to collect Blacky and make him feel more jumpy. 8)

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 Post subject: Re: 4: Pesade and Levade
PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 12:08 am 
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GREAT ideas for discriminations Miriam!!

Thanks!

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 Post subject: Re: 4: Pesade and Levade
PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 12:25 pm 
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hi there :D :D :D ok, just read and read and read. i have been starting rear with Bandi. i have no real direction as to what type to start with, but at the moment Bandi is just offering little more than a small lift off the ground. we are only less than a week into this, so we are at the very beginning.

i started to get rear off the pedistal. i noticed that if i made the pedistal smaller and he got a little confused with where to put his legs, he would give a little hop type rear. so i rewarded this and noticed that he especially did this from the off side leg lifting to pedistal first. so i started to work on this. even just a lift from the shulders upwards was rewarded.

he picked it up quickly. and so i added a cue, made sure that he understands the difference between pedistal and rear, and then i have moved him to a special little log for rear. he offeres so many of the little rears, but none are really collected or of any substancial size, but they are what he is offering. so now i am looking for advice on how to improve the rear, or i would assume the we might start with levade.

this is the first video. this was our first day.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzSYw2VdISY it is not much really, but the next one is loading. i will post it soon.

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 Post subject: Re: 4: Pesade and Levade
PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 2:00 pm 
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jessplum wrote:
hi there :D :D :D ok, just read and read and read. i have been starting rear with Bandi. i have no real direction as to what type to start with, but at the moment Bandi is just offering little more than a small lift off the ground. we are only less than a week into this, so we are at the very beginning.

i started to get rear off the pedistal. i noticed that if i made the pedistal smaller and he got a little confused with where to put his legs, he would give a little hop type rear. so i rewarded this and noticed that he especially did this from the off side leg lifting to pedistal first. so i started to work on this. even just a lift from the shulders upwards was rewarded.

he picked it up quickly. and so i added a cue, made sure that he understands the difference between pedistal and rear, and then i have moved him to a special little log for rear. he offeres so many of the little rears, but none are really collected or of any substancial size, but they are what he is offering. so now i am looking for advice on how to improve the rear, or i would assume the we might start with levade.

this is the first video. this was our first day.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzSYw2VdISY it is not much really, but the next one is loading. i will post it soon.


Timing is crucial. Also allowing the horse a fair amount of time to develop the body condition (muscle and sinew development) to improve.

The goal should be to hit the precise moment, that instant, when he is in or nearest the form you wish. Think of it as being "in-frame," and hit that with a click and treat.

I try to enable the horse to be doing what I wish and still able to accept the treat.

Say I want the to tuck their chin in. At first they will lose the position at the sound of the click, but I treat anyway. Soon I move on to treating when they are in form, and clicking in the same instant if possible.

I think many others do this as well and thus can rather quickly get duration ... that is the holding of a behavior form for longer time.

It helps if play and fun are part of it, of course.

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 Post subject: Re: 4: Pesade and Levade
PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 1:06 pm 
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hithere :D :D so finally it has worked. youtube failed for me over and over, but they have down loaded FINALLY!!!!

so this is Bandi and i playing with a little rear that we have started from pedistal. we are just beginning to get a cue, and it is nothing special, except that he is ofering it freely and without me having to force him at any point. it is so calm, and relaxed. i like this. so this is how we are going after about a week. tell me what you think? what advice do you all have? where to go from here? how long do i just leave it naturally as it is to get used to the feel and muscle development, or do i start changing it now? so many questions!!! :D :D i am just so excited by this, as it is just the nicest little rear, because it did not come from evasion or fear!! :kiss: just because he worked out i liked it :kiss: :kiss:

VIDEO

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9XCojOJUQM

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 Post subject: Re: 4: Pesade and Levade
PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 10:13 am 
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ok, i just wanted tro post an update photo sesion of our rearing. this is what we have moulded from a rear off the pedistal. i think that it is pretty good. when i ask for it, i have been asking him to move back ready first, so that he is engaged, then i ask for the "UP" he is so calm and controled and i am noticing that he is building muscles in his hind. i am so happy with him. but i am not at all an expert on rear, so i have a sequence of photos, as best as we could on my phone, (long story) so i would love some help. i am not at all assertive, but it looks like it. but i want the rear aid to be very clear so that he cannot get it confused. so i make sure it looks like a rear aid. although, i dont need to even use my hands, he just goes up on the word. so anyway, here are the photos.


to get a really good set up i ask for the tiny little rear, otherwise i ask for him to move back, and he seems to get to only move back te fronts, i actually dont know how h does this, i need my video camrea back!!!
Image

Image

Image

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 Post subject: Re: 4: Pesade and Levade
PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 8:56 pm 
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Hi Jessy,
I have no answers, just wanted to say this is very interesting for me because I'm also at the very beginning of rearing with Filux. Looking forward to answers of others :)

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 Post subject: Re: 4: Pesade and Levade
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 7:36 pm 
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It's lovely Jesse...I think in time, as he grows stronger in the haunches, he will need his head less for lifting the front end.

:clap:

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 Post subject: Re: 4: Pesade and Levade
PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 5:42 am 
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hi there :D :D thankyou both. i love it at the moment, because it is something that bandi is offering. i probably would like to have worked on a few different exercises first, but i felt the need to catch it as he offered a rear type lift in the beginning when i started to make the pedistal smaller. i did not want to miss an opertunity to play with something that he seened to like alot.

what are some good strenghening exercises that we can do for the hindquater? i have been doing alot of trotting out almost lenghening, then slowing up and trying to keep a kind of collection going. i have also started to teach laterals, and he is really getting that well. he is only 15 months old, so i am only trying to stick to things that he has offered to me, i dont want to stress his joints and bones out, but he is so enthusiastic and i know how much young horses play, so i feel pretty comefortable working with him totally at liberty. i know that he is only doing what he can. :f:

so i would love some suggestions for exercises to improve the rear. he really does lift with his neck alot.

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 Post subject: Re: 4: Pesade and Levade
PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 7:28 am 

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hi everybody,

when my little arab and me started with collection, we did it the following way:

The first step was to teach malcolm to move his weight from his shoulders to his hindquarters. I did this by lifting his head more and more so he kind of leaned back, put his hindquarters more under his body and continously learned how to carry increasing weight with his haunches. After a while this helped him to become really light in his forehand which automatically encouraged him to lift it. So the lifting of the forehand was a logic result of this exercise.

As time went by, it was only neccessary to lean my own bodyweight a bit towards his hindquarters and he knew what to do. He does this exercise while working in hand on cavesson or bit but also at liberty. When I want him to do a pesade at liberty I put my hand on his chest and lean backwards and there we go. Of course it is not that precise (and he uses his neck a bit more to lift) as when doing this exercise in hand, but he likes it and has plenty of fun with it - and me too. :)

Here is a picture of my husband and malcolm doing the pesade:
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 Post subject: Re: 4: Pesade and Levade
PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 8:33 am 
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that is an absolutely beautiful picture. i kind of get the meaning of what you mean, but i am finding it hard to fully understand. do you have a you tube of this? i love watching videos to learn, as i am useless at understanding through words.

when you say lifting his head, do you mean nose up, or while "on the bit" or should i say, were you meaning just lifting the headcollar, or were you meaning more him lifting his pole towards the sky?

i am standing in front of bandi with the rear, and although many find this a little dangerouse or incorrect, i feel better there. i have had some terrible and dangerouse experiences from the shoulder, and i think that the horse can sense this and they do not work at the shoulder well with me. but i am trying and the eventual aim is to be able to ask from anywhere.

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 Post subject: Re: 4: Pesade and Levade
PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 11:29 am 

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Hi jessie,

no wonder you don't understand me clearly enough - i could explain it a lot better in german :sad: . unfortunately i don't have a video of this so i have to try to specify it a bit better.

when we started this exercise we used the cavesson or a bit. malcolm was in "on the bit" position and the reins gave the signal to lift his head and neck upwards. it is absolutely ok when the frontline lefts the vertical position and the poll openes. what is an absolute must is that the horse understands to move its weight backwards so you never have to fear that you lose the horses back and produce an unhealthy movement.

if you proceed this way you do not have the problem that the horse catapults its forehand upwards and then carries the weight with the hindquarters. its exactly the other way round. at first it transfers its weight backwards, "sits down" and the lifts the frontend easily. hope this was a better description?!?! :blush:


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 Post subject: Re: 4: Pesade and Levade
PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 11:55 am 
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i think that i am getting the picture alot clearer. i will have to work out how to accomplish this without a bridle though, as my challenge is to do everything without anything on him. :cheers: :cheers: totally liberty. but i think that i can sort of think of a way to do that. i will just have to do it in incriments :kiss: thankyou for that advice, it was very helpful for me. :friends: :love:

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 Post subject: Re: 4: Pesade and Levade
PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 3:24 pm 
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Pamela, I did it almost exactly the same way with Tamarack. When I started to ask him to rear, he would fling his head in the ugliest attempt (Jesse, he was really FLINGING his head and not just raising it), so I stopped asking for it and decided instead to use other behaviors he already knew, to help strengthen the haunches - to ask him instead to sit back and learn to bend his hocks. He already knew how to lean back from our training the bow.

I decided that what we should do is to work on a very correct levade or pesade...whichever comes first is fine with me. So we started working on sitting back on the haunches, and after a couple of months his front feet will occasionally leave the ground...but leaving the ground at this point isn't the goal really...it's just working on his muscle memory to set himself up properly, to bend his hocks and sit into a lightening of the forehand without any excited head flinging.

I have used a combination of three behaviors he already knows. Two of these behaviors are the key to almost all the collected exercises...ramener, and Goat On A Mountain Top. The third behavior is to lean back when I ask. I also use my hand on his chest, or I use the cordeo in a soft back and up motion.

So Jesse, you can work on all these things. With such a young horse, please, please take your time. If he offers to rear freely, take it gladly, but for weighting the hocks purposely, take it slow. Simply teach him for now to allow himself to be leaned back. It is a matter of trust - just as much as a horse allowing us to lie them down or to bow - if they willingly allow you to manipulate them in this way, then you have the cornerstone for rear whether it's levade or pesade. Both must be performed calmly.

You have loads of time with such a young horse, so just see where it goes! In liberty work, each horse chooses his own favorite exercises...and the fact that you have so many horses to play with is enviable to say the least!

All of your work in lateral movements, and in the lengthening and shortening of the gaits, will of course also help with strength and muscle building - which will also help result in the lightening of the forehand, offers of suspension, etc. It's ALL good! :applause: :applause:

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 Post subject: Re: 4: Pesade and Levade
PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 3:29 pm 
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You can absolutely teach and reinforce ramener without any headgear. Coupled with the GOTM (Goat), you have the key to a lovely pesade once they learn to sit back. But those two exercises will also give you the keys to so many other collected movements. Raising the head in ramener can be done with luring or a little upward pressure with the cordeo. The same positions you achieve in the pesade or levade will also do amazing things for your Spanish Walk...making it much more light, silent and beautiful. A horse can reach more upward and outward with the front legs.

I"ve posted this video a gazillion times already, but here it is again...a lovely levade that clearly illustrates the sitting posture:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2R8Jj68pB2A

Without any headgear, you also cannot micromanage the horse's head (something I was very prone to doing) and therefore, if the horse needs to bring the nose in front of the vertical to be comfortable as they develop the exercise, they can.

And hey Jesse, as my friend Paul told me (and you are already doing - you are smarter than I am!!!) DO NOT neglect the extended gaits. Between the extended gaits and the collected work, lies that lovely suspension!

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 Post subject: Re: 4: Pesade and Levade
PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 5:12 pm 
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Man, I love that Branderup video -- especially w/the picture above them. Beautiful.

Pamela, thanks for your description about how conscious you were about getting Malcolm to lift in his shoulders by leaning back on his haunches -- this is something that both my horses are offering, especially Stardust, and I hadn't thought about how to use it with such precision.

Now all we have to do is crack the GOTM code...hah!

:)

Leigh

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 Post subject: Re: 4: Pesade and Levade
PostPosted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 12:04 am 
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Posts: 788
thankyou so much for that Karen, that was great. i am very careful with his as he is a baby, it is so hard. i am walking a thin line! ;) but he is so eager and offers everything i just think about. he is so connected with me, it is hard not to just run with it. i started with him because of his physical disability. he had contracted tendons and bandy legs when born, he has so many muscle problems, it is frightning. you may notice him stumble alot in his videos. everything locks up! i have him on special herbs, richly mixed with vinegar, and he is really improving, but i also have to exercise him and start teaching him to use his musces correctly. his hindquater as the worst. and i cannot even believe that he can rear. but i am happy that he has offerd this because it is strenthening the muscles and tendons. i do not do large rears mush, i try to just encourage the small, more collected ones. i have started on ramener, but i am a little concerned as he is having difficulties in bringing stretching his pole, i am so glad that i am not forcing it, as i think that this area has been physically effected the most. when i call him sometimes he cocks his head like a blind horse, and it scares me. we are working on trotting out alot to build his muscles and the laterals we are taking slowly, because he does lock up, but i have noticed that since starting the laterals, his patella does not lock up nearly as much.

anyway. for moving down to help mum, they told me that i could pick any one of the young horses as my personal baby (like i need another horse) so i have picked bandi, as i think that he needs the care for the rest of his life, and i dont expect he will ever be able to be ridden. but he loves this, and he has such a brain for it, so bandi now has become my special baby. i will try to get a video of what we are doing with ramener, laterals, trotting out, and levade. i want to get ome advice, i am scared to get it wrong with him as he is physically reying on me to get it right!

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