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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 3:56 pm 
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Hi :)

Because of the on going ice age I had a rare day of yesterday and this is the result:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfJfKT6eRco

What do you all think?

:green:

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 8:01 pm 

Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2009 4:27 pm
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Location: Corneto di Toano, Italy
Both my dogs and my cat receive some raw meat almost everyday.
But it is usually kidneys, heart or stomachs of chickens.
Sometimes a raw burger.
Or the bone from the soup, but than that is cooked.

What meat do you give them and how much?
I am afraid of them throwing up when they get bones... it has happened before.

But definitely raw meat is better than cooked!

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 11:12 pm 
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when I was home, aside from their regular commercial dog food, my dogs always got Beef necks raw to chew one once a day. I also have a few friends who are all Raw food and bones.

My dogs puke up rawhide from a store and cooked bones. So they get steak bones that have been cut off the meat before cooking. Aside from the food source it cleans their teeth which prevents gunk build up and heart disease.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 3:27 am 

Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2009 12:03 am
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Oh no, I just let my husband watch this with me (he was even dancing along with the music) after I had happily weaned him off most meat, now how do I convince him that he's not a carnivore? Maybe by feeding him raw chicken wings... Yes, that should work. 8) :funny:
But seriously, I am a believer, even though I can't afford to feed all my animals raw meat and bones only they at least hunt their own when we go for walks in the fields. I fed the dogs raw beef back ribs for a while until one of them broke a canine tooth, so at least for dogs it might help to put raw bones through the meat grinder first.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 7:39 pm 

Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2009 12:03 am
Posts: 760
I can only speak for my own dogs but all 10 of them, incl. a geriatric Cocker Spaniel, geriatric Whippet and a middle-aged Chinese Crested (all quite far removed from wild dogs) have no trouble catching and eating all the same prey that the wild Coyotes around here eat: mice, small weasels, ground squirrels, moles and other small animals. The only parasites we have to treat for 2-3 times a year are tapeworm. We feed a very high quality (human grade ingredient) commercial dry food that's about half meat half grain once a day and occasionally feed some raw eggs from our own organic and pasture-fed free-ranging ducks and some left-overs from our table. None of the dogs are overweight (almost 70 % of American pet dogs are overweight, many are obese), all of them are in great muscular condition for their age and in great overall health. I'd like to think that a balanced diet with some raw and some cooked, some veggie and some meat ingredients, as much as possible from healthy and humane sources would work for most pets. I'm always happy to learn more so would be interested what other people have found helpful. We make small changes as we learn more all the time. :)


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 5:22 pm 

Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 8:03 pm
Posts: 14
Location: Netherlands
Quote:
http://skeptvet.com/Blog/2009/06/raw-di ... -and-cats/
Myth 1: Dogs and cats are carnivores and evolved to eat uncooked whole prey.


Dear one and all,

I really disagree with this statement.

Please take note that this text isn’t an “anti-vegetable” text. If people want to feed their dog a little bit of vegetables, there’s nothing wrong with that, if the rest of the dogs menu consists of raw (not grinded) meat-products. Though, feeding vegetables to your dog is an optional part, not an essential part for an carnivorous animal!

Very familiair with the wolf.
Based on DNA evidence, the taxonomical status of the domesticated dog, changed in 1993 from species-status (Canis lupus ssp.), to subspecies status (Canis lupus familiaris). Which means that nowadays the domesticated dog should be considered as subspecies of the wolf. (Canis lupus ssp.) This means that in contrast to the wolf (Canis lupus), the domesticated dog has the same status as for example the Eurasian Wolf (Canis lupus lupus) and the Eastern Wolf.(Canis lupus lycaon)

Genetic research to the difference in the mitochondrial DNA of the domesticated dog, shows us a almost idencital (the difference is 0,2% ) basepairing with the gray wolf, which points to a direct evolutionary descendent from the recent past. The difference between for example wolves and coyotes is much bigger! (4%!)
The domesticated dog is more familiair with the wolf than most people realise. They can breed together and get fertile litters. We as humans can not mate with our ancestors the primats. This is another evidence that wolf and domesticated dogs are very familiair.

The cause of the fact that some of the wolves in the population in the USA are black is the fact that this animals have bred with black domesticated dogs in het past. Please google on: “molecular and evolutionary history of melanism in north american gray wolves”.

Evolution and domestication.
Wolfs and bears both have the same ancestor: the miacis. During the evolution bears developed special molars to crush vegetable matters, and so they are able to digest those. (and they have a larger digestive system)

In time of evolution, wolfs didn’t develop a physical development which enables him to digest any vegetable matter by themselves. Dogs can’t digest it either, you have to crush or boil the vegetables before a dog can digest these. The dog hasn’t got any anotomical adaptations which would indicate that a dog would be an omnivorous mammal.
And if the dog was indeed an omnivore, why should ‘we’ crush the vegetables? That’s not necesarry for any omnivorous animal, they do it themselves!
The saliva of the dog doesn’t contain amylase (a carbohydrate spliting enzyme), which is typical for herbivors and omnivorous animals. The digestion of a dog (or a canivore in general) starts in the stomach. In the case of pigs, bears and humans, who really are omnivorous animals, the digestion already starts in the mouth.
In the time of the domestication of the wolf to a dog, there haven’t been any changes in the digestive-system. Therefore the proces of domestication it’s just to short. ( same story if you talk about evolution, that takes even longer!).

Wolfs and vegetable matters.
David Mech is considered to be the world's leading wolf biologist, and this book is a compilation of 350 collective years of research, experiments, and careful field observations.
In his book (which he wrote in 2003) “Wolves: Behavior, Ecology, and Conservation” you can find the following lines about wolfs and vegetable matters.
These quotes are taken from chapter 4, “The Wolf as a Carnivore.”

“Wolves usually tear into the body cavity of large prey and...consume the larger internal organs, such as lungs, heart, and liver. The large rumen is usually punctured during removal and its contents spilled. The vegetation in the intestinal tract is of no interest to the wolves, but the stomach lining and intestinal wall are consumed, and their contents further strewn about the kill site”

“To grow and maintain their own bodies, wolves need to ingest all the major parts of their herbivorous prey, except the plants in the digestive system”

“The wolf's diet consists mostly of muscle meat and fatty tissue from various animals. Heart, lung, liver, and other internal organs are eaten. Bones are crushed to get at the marrow, and bone fragments are eaten as well. Even hair and skin are sometimes consumed. The only part consistently ignored is the stomach and its contents. Although some vegetable matter is taken separately, particularly berries, Canis lupus doesn't seem to digest them very well”

There have been several articles about the stomach contents of the wolf. A low percentage of vegetable matter (between 0,001%-4%) was found which had no relation to the habitat of the wolf. Sure, wolves would eat almost everything to survive, they’re opportunists.
And sure, wolves will sometimes eat something else than animal-matters. It’s known that wolves sometimes eat other wolves faeces, but that doesn’t make them “faeces-eaters”.
The domesticated dog has always been an carnivorous mammal, and sure, nowadays they developed preferences for specific foods which they wouldn’t find in the wild, but preferences are not of vital importance.

Dogs have never had any ‘reason’ to become an omnivorous animal.
Raymond Coppinger is sometimes mentioned as a reference for a omnivorous-statement. Coppinger is first a writer of books, a musher and a breeder of Northern sledgedogs who is and was fully supported by the pet food industrie. And after that he is a biologist.
Raymond Coppinger have never done any scientific research. He calls his vision just a theory.

If we qoute him from the National Graphic 2002: " So they selected or a selection was made, by the animal itself, they had the ability to eat close to humans area”
That way he wants to explain that wolves approached humans, and that humans didn’t search for contact with the wolfs themselves. Wolfs approached humans to eat their leftovers, without fear, so they had the ability to eat in the area where humans live.

As an example:
If we compare this with how the dogs in the “Hidatsa Culture” are fed, we see that those dogs are most of the time fed by RMB’s.
If we think clearly we see that there have never been any “reason” for a dog to change into an omnivorous animal.

“As dogs became adult we fed them meat and also cooked corn for
them, boiling it into a kind of mush. Anything that turned sour in the
lodge, like boiled corn, we gave to the dogs. Any food that was spoiled
or for some reason was rejected by the family, was set aside for them. If,
on the hunt, an animal was killed that was lean and poor in flesh, it was
given to the dogs. A man who killed a buffalo, saved the parts that he did
not want for himself and gave them to the dogs. Sometimes he would
gather up for his dogs the cast-away, pieces of another man's butchering.
The tough outside part of a buffalo's ham was stripped off for the
dogs, while the meat near the bone was kept.
The parts of the leg below the knee were also thrown away or given to the dogs.
When buffalo were abundant, the hunters kept only the best parts, for when two or three
buffalo were killed not all the meat could be carried home. The next day
after the killing anyone who wished meat for his dogs could go to the
place where the carcasses were butchered and get the cast-away pieces.
In times of scarcity the people cared for their dogs as best they could.
They ate the bones that were crushed and broken in cooking and then
thrown away. The dogs could chew and gnaw at them and get some food
in this way. “

Source:
THE AMERICIAN MUSEUM OF NATURAL HISTORY; THE HORSE AND THE DOG IN HIDATSA CULTURE. BY GILBERT L. WILSON.

The first commercial dogfood arised in 1860, the food was made of grain, vegetables and blood. Most people in that time kept on feeding their dogs with RMB’s. It was after the second worldwar that people start to give their pets commercial petfoods. In such a short amount of time, evolution (big) physical changes) won’t take place.

The dog in the current form still hasn’t any bodypart that tell us it’s a omnivorous animal. In the matter of fact: everything points in the direction of the opposite.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 5:30 pm 

Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 8:03 pm
Posts: 14
Location: Netherlands
Please read this website: http://www.rawmeatybones.com Just click on your own flag to read Tom Lonsdale's book in your own language. ;)

I wouldn't recommend beef-bones because they digest very badly. This is an article I wrote for a few magazines, for what is worth:

The new tendency in dogland: Rather fresh than something else!

A lot more people realise that their dog doesn’t need to eat the same food every day. Like their bosses they are crazy about some variaton and difference in their food. With the right nutritif products this variation is not a problem at all. Let’s take a look into the world of Natural Raw Food!

Yes, they really exists: dogowners who prepare every day in their kitchen a meal for their dog. ( cat or ferret ). These meals exist out of raw meaty bones, red meat ( muscle meat ) and organes well or not complemented with eggs, vegetables, milk- and sereal products. Also the raw feeding happening is in fact the rediscovery of old values. In the early days everybody fed this way with satisfaction. It is through the apearance of the two Austalian vets Dr. Tom Lonsdale and Dr. Ian Billinghurst that it came in ‘the picture’ again. Slowly the amount of people in the dogworld increases enormously that composes ( partly ) themselves or gives raw food. Partly this is started because we have been thinking more and more about our own feedingpaterns and we like to examine gladly the diet of our dog at the same time. Fresh food is healty, we all have this meaning!

To compose the food yourself can certainly be healthy, but there are things you have to be cautious about. First of all: take care to give the food raw. Cooked or heated bones change of structure and start to splinter. Don’t be afraid for the splintering of raw bones: dogspecies in the wild eat their prey also raw. You can give the muscle meat and organs also raw because heating the meat destroys the bacteria and enzymes that are so important for a carnivore. The most reliable percentages for a dog are: 60-70% muscle meat, 15% organs and 15% raw bones. These percentages match the best for animals of prey, also eaten in the wild.

Examples for suitable beginner bones are: chickennecks, chickenwings and bones of a lamb. You may give all the bones of poeltry and rabits, these bones are soft and easy to digest. Never give bones without meat: they digest badly and give to hard faeces. Never give little bones because they can be swollowed on the whole.

Examples of organs are liver, hart and kidneys. You can also give lungs but this has not much nutritif value and a lot of dogs refuste to eat it because of the structure. Tripe is also an organ but because of the many benefits you can give it up to three times a week.

Muscle meat is very important for a dog. The best way to understand it is that everything that isn’t organ, is muscle meat for example: headmeat, cuttings etc. A dog doesn’t need to eat “complete” every day: you just have to take care that your dog get everything what he needs in a period of three weeks. You can also be warned for “all meat syndrome”. This isn’t a scientific term and no ‘natural raw feeder’ will only feed raw (organ)meat.

As we all know fish is very healthy for people. This is also the case for dogs. Fish is an important source of omega fatty acids. These omega acids contribute to the condition of skin/coat, lubrification of the joints and they are good for heart and bloodvesels. Therefore you could give your dog fish once a week. The good ao called
‘fat fishes’ are for example: salmon, tune, macrel, sardines. But give this fish raw: heating the fish causes britle and splintering fishbones.

You can make the meal of your dog more attractive by adding soms eggs to the menu ( give only raw whole eggs ) or a bit yoghurt. Vegetables are not necessary for dogs because dogs can make vitamine C by themselves. You can also give some nuts en pits to your dog as so called fiber. In the wild wolves will eat the nails and hairs of their preys which have benefits for a good digestion. You can add two spoons every meal.

Maybe you get dizzy from all this information and maybe you think it’s nothing for you. Fortunatley there is a solution for this: in most supermarkets and in almost every petshop there are ready, raw complete meals for sale. Although this is grinded and not far as good as big pieces of meat who avoid paradontal diseases, it can be a second choice for people that can’t compose themselves, but want to offer some variety for their pet.

If you compose yourself it’s not only healty but also the perfect way to give some more attention to your dog. Let’s say it in short: it brings some action in everydays live, for dog and dog-owner!

Ester Overman


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 5:32 pm 

Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 8:03 pm
Posts: 14
Location: Netherlands
Why raw food ?

Ask any dogowner what they feed their dogs and most of them will answer; kibble or canned dog food. Maybe you do the same at this point.
But, not everybody feeds their dogs or cats in this way and it's not as naturally to feed them kibble as a few years ago. We have started to think about our own food more and more and obviously also started thinking about our pets food.
We all agree that fresh food is healthy!
The number of people that put their own menu together for their pets has grown fast and is still growing. A situation that should be encouraged.

There are several reasons to feed your dog raw food. First of all it's important to explain why commercial kibble and canned foods are not suitable for dogs that are natural carnivores. There are two different types of kibble. Kibbles that have been pressed and kibble that's been expanded under a high temperature.
These two foods have two similarities. First of all, they have been made for the convenience of humans. What is more easier than throwing some kibble into a bowl? You don't have to think about what your dog eats, the package said it was a complete meal, so why bother?

The second similarity is that the dogs body must try and work with strange, unknown substances.
That's the reason that so many dogs have allergic reactions. Kibble gets heated in a way that they become sterile and makes the dogs digestion lazy. Because of the kibble getting heated that way, artificial vitamins and minerals must be added to make sure the dog gets all the needed substances.
Also, the dogs immune system goes down because of this artficial made food.
The fact that this “dead food” weakens organisms has been confirmed by Dr. Francis Pottenger who has done research on 900 cats between 1932 and 1942.
Already in the first generation there were miscarriages and deformities.
This research has been repeated with rats and pigs and again the animals who got a diet of heated, dead food health problems, and the animals who got “live, fresh food” were healthy.


Also, chemicals to conserve the kibble are often added. These chemicals are often defined as “in the E.U. approved preservatives” whereby alot of customers are being mislead. Those approved preservatives are often meant to be the substances BHT, BTA and Ethoxyquine. These are, among others, agriculture poison and rubber stabilizers. Research has shown us that these substances can even lead to infertility. BHA, BHT, Ethoxyquine and Propylgallate are all carcinogenic substances. A colorant will be addes to some kibbles, to make it more attractive to the petowner. A dog doens't care what color his food is, the only thing that matters is that it smells ok, and tastes good!

Another important issue is that more than 75% of all dogs above 3 years of age have dentalproblems because of eating food that is not suitable. Although it has often been claimed that kibble is good for your dogs teeth, that is ofcourse, not true.As soon as a dog bites on a bit of kibble, it falls apart. Only raw bones and large pieces of raw meat will make sure your dog has clean teeth. On an average, there will be over 60% of grain waste as an ingredient in kibble. The leftovers of big companies that make products for human consumption. Grains are full of carbohydrates, which will make your dog fat, have bad teeth and often, a stinking dog's coat. In nature, wolves would never eat such high amounts of graines, except maybe the stomach contents of a small rodent, and that is such a small amount, it can be neglected. Dogs that have allergic reactions to kibble, will most likely have an allergy for this grain waste or the artificial additives. Kibble contains proteins of low biological value, unlike raw food which contains proteins of high biological value. It's obvious that a foodprotein that is most rich with essential aminoacids, and in a proportion closest to the bodyprotein, will have the highest biological value.
All the ingredients that have been processed into kibble, is the waste coming from large, well-known multinationals. The waste that is left over after producing shampoo, food and others for human comsumption, is processed into petfoods.The dog has become the waste disposal of the foodindustrie, alot of dogowners just don't know it yet.
Although our cute and friendly looking domestic dogs don't look like wolves anymore, their digestive system is almost similar to the wolf. Also the teeth, doens't matter whether you look at a Jack Russel or a Greyhound, they both have carnivore teeth. They don't have teeth to grind or chew, they have teeth to rip and tear apart large chunks of meat, and cut through bones.

Raw meat and bones contain the right combination of vitamins and minerals that carnivores need. It has been claimed that some dogs are allergic to proteins and therefore have a proteinallergy. There is, however, not one dog that can be allergic to áll proteins, for the simple fact that a carnivores whole anatomy has been built apon digesting food that exists out of proteins and fats. Besides, the quality of protein in kibble can not be compared to the proteins in, for example, a goatesrib or a chicken wing.

Don't be afraid that your dog will be sick after eating a raw meal. All animals in nature eat their food raw. There is not one animal that walks around the woods with a cooker tide to their back.

People sometimes claim that animals who eat raw food couldn't reach a high age. Because wolves don't reach a high age in nature. But in nature, animals have to survive strong winters, they have no healthcare like our pets, and sometimes there is a lack of food in the wild. Wolves that live in captivity and eat raw food, will reach a must higher age than wolves out in the wild. That is because they get healthcare and regular check ups by the vet, and always get enough food to eat.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 7:53 pm 
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Joined: Thu May 17, 2007 11:57 am
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Location: provincie Utrecht
i would love that my cat could eat raw food.
but she have alsmost no theeth anymore, so she can not ripp it off or sew it correctly.
She is an old lady :)


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 3:58 pm 

Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2009 4:27 pm
Posts: 483
Location: Corneto di Toano, Italy
Josepha, to be honest I still have to read everything Ester has written...
It is quite a bit and I want to be able to read it carefully.

But if I have anymore questions, I will certainly come back on it later.

Thank you! and Thank Ester!

:love:

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AnneMarie

------
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make'em drink...


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 7:37 pm 
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Location: Bavaria, Germany
Oh thank you all, it's interesting and I never really thought about it that way. I must admit that I rather would have liked our dog to be a vegetarian not too long ago and I never thought about his mixed feed anyway that way!! I feel a tiny bit enlightened after all ;)


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 10:40 pm 

Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2009 4:27 pm
Posts: 483
Location: Corneto di Toano, Italy
So, I have gone through it all... Not only Ester's posts but I read the book completely. :thumleft:

I knew the basics already since my vet has always told me to prepare the dog food myself.
But she gave a basis of cereals with slightly cooked veggies and raw meat on top.
And every now and than a raw egg over some bread, mixed with white cheese and some water.
She did not stress on the bone factor.
They have been eating like this for a long time now - they only got the processed stuff when I did not have any time to cook.
About bones people always told me to give them cooked and never any chicken bones because they splinter. :roll:
So I learned something new : that raw bones are soft and it is the cooking that make them splinter!

I have tried it out immediately today: gave my dogs some chicken bone with still some meat on it.
One of them was still deep frozen. I thought it would take them some time to get through it all...

Oh no! After a very short time (I was still eating also, but I think it was not more than about 4-5 mins) I could not find anything anymore... not even from the frozen stuff!
I must say they always eat very fast - probably scared that the other will come and take their food, even though the little one is in her cage and Xinshu is out. But I had thought this would have last for at least 15 mins...

To continue this will ask for some reorganizing.
But I hope it will make my dogs and cat more healthy and give them a longer life! :cheers:

Thanks again to Josepha and Esther! :f: :f: :f:
:love:

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AnneMarie

------
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make'em drink...


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 9:23 am 
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Wow Annemarie! that is great news :) :applause:

This makes me just as happy than when someone tells me the bit & spurs are in the dustbin :)

and great of you too Bella :) Are you going to try the raw food for your dog?

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 10:39 am 

Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2009 4:27 pm
Posts: 483
Location: Corneto di Toano, Italy
Thank you Josepha,

For me the change was not all that drastic as they were eating raw meat already in the past.

I am only wondering if it is normal that it was all gone in a flash?
Did they not get enough maybe?
They hardly had the time to floss their teeth like this - and that is one of the good reasons to feed them like this?

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AnneMarie

------
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make'em drink...


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 2:56 pm 
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it should be a mealof 2 to 3% of their body weight. How much did you give?

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