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PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 11:22 am 

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Location: Barcelona, Spain
Edit by Romy: This topic was split from Video about cat cuisine. I tried to split it in a way that leaves both lines of discussion relatively intact, but if there are any gaps in the flow of the messages, just take a look into the original thread.


Here are some thoughts about the other side of raw food diets:

http://skeptvet.com/Blog/2009/06/raw-di ... -and-cats/

I am not completely convinced by the cases adduced, but they underline the necessity to think again about what we are doing with our animals companions.
By prioritising the animals who share our lives, we victimise those who are helpless prey animals to man: Commercial foods do not add to the demand for victims, at least, and many people find it possible to feed vegetarian - indeed vegan - diets to their animals: we have mentioned the special case of taurine for cats on other pages.
Many of us have rescued dogs &/or cats - I am in this category - acquired before we sorted out our thinking on these points, and we must do our best accordingly - minimising the amount of animals foods provided or eliminating them altogether.
If I started again from zero, much as I love my dogs, I think I would have to offer a home to rescued chickens or ducks, whose protein would come from the slugs in the vegetable garden, or, in the case of the chickens, from hunting mice under the hay (this is an impressive, if gruesome, sight!). The point being that getting animal protein where you can is one thing: adding to the toll of helpless victims of human technological superiority is another. Our penchant for carnivorous pets needs serious thinking. With this I don't mean to say the practice is wicked or should be halted tomorrow, just that for the future we should weigh the interests of all the species with whom we have dealings and try not to let ourselves prioritise some over others merely because we are used to the idea.
Rita

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 2:34 pm 
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I understand your point Rita. But it is one thing to get people to think about not using bits or feed commercial and harmful animal tested (!) petfood for which the same bio industrie animals waste is used and an other to get people to think about their purchases entirely. You can not throw all the things in one at people to convince them, can you? I in any case have noticed on many occasions that that certainly does not work.

I myself do not eat meat because now my carnivores who have no choice can and there is no meat eaten extra. Next to that I seek out biological meat where I can. But that is me. Every one is free to make a choice.
Funds is one thing which can make things more difficult. We all do what we can.

But one things is for sure, no one will help any animal by feeding commercial food. Our pets will suffer ilness and millions of lab animals will die during tests each year.
Being veggy, buying against animal testing, buying biological etc... these we can only inform about, but the choice is each and every individual alone.

With this thread I was sharing info to improve the live of many carnivores who suffer from commercial food and have no choice then to eat meat as opposed to humans... we, who do have a choice.
Improving the lives of cattle and poultry is a different thread all together.

So please guys, let's just discuss cat and dog health and cuisine as was intentioned :)
I've asked Ester, the Benelux specialist on raw food to reply, our special guest star :)

And Rita, if you'd like to open a treath with tips on how to improve the live of bio-industry animals, that would be great :)

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 8:07 pm 

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I hoped to make it clear, and I'm sorry if it wasn't, that I am only inviting consideration in planning how our relations with animals might evolve in the future, taking on board our absolute power over the animals whom we choose to use as food.
I really do not think we can separate the issues of which animals we choose to care for in our homes and which we choose to turn into food items - it's just something to keep in mind when considering what we feed our carnivorous companions. Perhaps we need to ask ourselves how we would tackle this issue if the meat industry dried up altogether.
Your point about the unfortunate lab animals on whom the processed diets are tested is timely, Josepha - it's a truly awful business altogether. As for "how to improve the live of bio-industry animals" - no need for another thread - just change every statute in every country to read that animals are no longer chattel property, and Bob's your uncle, as they say in England!
Wish I could think I'll live to see it!

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 12:44 am 

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This makes me very sad :sad: - if it were true, we should just not keep carnivorous pets at all - which is probably the case.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 1:23 am 
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Thank you very much for that huge amount of information, Ester!! :)

rmgwing wrote:
This makes me very sad :sad: - if it were true, we should just not keep carnivorous pets at all - which is probably the case.


Maybe that is one of the main problems (besides my lack of time) that I would have with keeping a carnivour - as much as I would love to have a cat Image, I could not imagine to buy meat for it all the time and feed it - but then I sincerely believe that a carnivour needs meat... so for now I stick to not having one at all and simply adore those cats that my neighbours and friends have. :smile:


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 10:43 am 

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Well said, Romy! Accepting all the consequences of our relations with animals is so necessary if we are ever to find our right (minimally damaging) place in the world - and whilst we cling to "but then I couldn't.....", we can't go forward. But it's not easy........

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 1:32 pm 
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Thanks Ester! :)

Well, Rita, as we already have the carnivores, I see no reason to not feed them what keeps them healthy.
On my part, we mostly feed what normally would have been thrown away, so nothing goes to waist and as said, Ralph and I do not eat meat ourselves.

All the carnivores that live with me just needed a home as no one else wanted them. What was I supposed to do? say, "sorry, you're a meat eater, go some place and die?"

I love sharing my live with cats and dogs by the way. They teach me lots, just as horses do and I connect much more easy with cats, dogs and horses then I do with humans. They are my family.
And I suspect there will always be cats and dogs on our doorstep wanting to live with us.

I do think, once we move to a more natural location, any new cats and dogs that arrive I might try to convince to hunt for their own. I am not sure yet.
But this is not walhalla. Animals eat animals. And animals eat plants who also are living beings with their own senses.

We must just make sure that we do only what is neccessary to survive and reduce suffering where we can. But there is no point in wishing we could all start living from air.
Well, that's the way I see it, anyway.
And I think horses, or at least Owen, think the same.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 1:40 pm 
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By the way, I very much respect people that can not stand feeding meat and then choose not to take in a cat or dog. :)

What makes me sad is people who take them in and then feed them vegetarian food. :sad:
And what really makes me :evil: is people who eat meat themselves and then cry "oh how terrible, that poor cow' when they see ralph and me putting a saw to a severed leg in the kitchen... :roll:
Anyway, that is how my mother became a vegetarian :green: 8)

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 2:20 pm 

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say, "sorry, you're a meat eater, go some place and die?"

exactly the point Josepha: we're starting from a less thn ideal point - it's what we should be aiming for down the road, and for future generations, that I think we can focus on to hope for improvements.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 6:39 pm 
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I get it.
So, how would you suggest to fix this? :)

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 7:29 pm 

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"The moral baseline is veganism" as Gary Francione says. Stopping animal exploitation, which is such an integral part of human life, is not going to be easy and here is not the place to try and unroll a world plan! But the problems that follow the adoption of veganism are problems of life, not of death: we can't keep on doing something we know to be wrong because we've made the problem a roller-coaster that's difficult to get off. No-one is going to ask us to bring out a final scheme for the world, but every day, every one of us has the responsibility to make the best choices we can for our actions. As I mentioned previously, many of us, including myself, I'm sorry to say, are starting from a less than ideal position in this respect. However, veganism cuts out at a stroke a great chunk of bad choices and frees us up to see the next step, which we can't whilst we're still trying to keep some of our exploitative practices going.

In the dogs-and-cats case, we can campaign against breeding, shows, pet "owning" - as opposed to guardianship of refugees - and the buying and selling of living beings. We can stop talking about getting a pet "for" our children, we can protest school visits to zoos and farm schools, and - yes - we can try to do the best for the refugees under our own roofs without victimising their helpless, exploited brethren, because we must balance their "best" with the "best" for others, just as we should balance our standard of living with consideration for other humans who don't have that luxury.

On a lighter note :twisted: , I wonder if, in the raw food issue, anyone else was reminded of what Bernardo Diaz, one of the Spanish conquistadores of Mexico relates about Montezuma's private zoo? In an ironic twist of fate, the animals were fed on the left-overs from the daily human sacrifices made in the capital. Now THAT's recycling!

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 9:55 pm 

Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2009 4:27 pm
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Location: Corneto di Toano, Italy
Quote:
"The moral baseline is veganism" as Gary Francione says. Stopping animal exploitation, which is such an integral part of human life, is not going to be easy and here is not the place to try and unroll a world plan!


I am afraid I cannot agree on this Rita.
I am all against animal exploitation, yes.
But I don't think the baseline therefor should be veganism but having respect for all creatures that live on this planet.
While at the same time recognising that there is a circle in which the one eats the other to survive.

I will probably start breeding sheep after we will have moved to Italy.
I know there will be rams and ewes - such is life. And that I will not be able to keep all of them, even though my first reason why to breed them will be the wool.
Some of them will have to be killed and will be eaten, whilst others will live for much longer and provide wool and milk (if I manage to milk them).
But they will have a nice life, as nice as I will be able to give them.
And the ones that will die for food, will have done their natural task: that is why God created prey animals.
But they will be honoured for it and nothing will be spilled of their body.
They will have lived in a nice way and I will try to make sure that their death will be swiftly and with the least fear possible.

It will be hard for me, as this is for me a totally new concept. But it is the only way that I see how I can keep a herd of sheep.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 11:02 pm 

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I have replied to this post in a PM, as I think it is getting rather far from the AND point - something I am aware I am all too guilty of at times :blush: . There's really nothing to add to previous posts on this topic, for me.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 2:36 pm 
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I understand both Rita and Annemarie. :yes:
And I think nature will only truly take it's course if we all individually follow our own hearts completely and allow others to follow theirs.

And if I come back as a sheep, I am going to live with someone like Annemarie 8) :funny: :)

Annemarie, are your questions on feeding raw meat answered by Ester, or do you need some more info? :)

And does anyone have more questions about the subject of raw, please ask :)
( also if you eat meat yourself be it raw or otherwise ;) :green:)

Warm regards,

Josepha

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 12:18 pm 

Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2007 10:10 am
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Bella - once again I enter a plea to consider the helpless animals that must be slaughtered so we can have carnivorous companions. There are well formulated vegan dog foods on the market which at least offer the possibility of offsetting our unfairness in this respect.
The idea that what dogs' near relatives have evolved to eat may give us a clue as to dogs' "natural" diet, but when we see that they can flourish and live long healthy lives* on a different régime without compromising the lives of other animals, surely it's worthwhile balancing the scales of justice a bit?
Being "natural" isn't everything - humans have shifted the equilibrium of nature so far out of whack that we are now left with some very difficult ethical decisions to make, but they must be faced. It is not enough to try to idealise the lives of animals under our direct protection and ruthlessly exploit those we don't see.

Rita

* if there are special cases of health problems, I would urge that these are treated as exceptions, not as general rules

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