The Art of Natural Dressage

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 9:17 am 
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Dear Cat and Dog parents,

With proud I introduce Ester as our special guest star here at AND ‘other animals’.

Ester started the raw food ‘movement’ in Holland years ago with her forum and later website ‘voernatuurlijk.nl’ which translates as ‘feed natural’.
Now that I write it, her forum may have subconsciously have set a large example for how I envisioned AND.
She re-christened BARF (Biological Appropriate Raw Food) into ‘Natuurlijk Rauw Voeren’ which is now very well known in Holland and Flandria as ‘NRV’, which translates as Natural Raw Food or Feeding.
She simplified the rather complicated method from Dr. Ian Billinghurst (BARF) to a very simple method based on how wolves and wild cats eat, much like the method of Tom Lonsdale ('Raw meaty bones').
Many great names in the Raw feeding world, like the latter, were guests in Ester’s forum.
That is of course were I got the idea of asking Ester on ours. :lol: Ester even visited Dr. Lonsdale in his home during a trip in Australia.

Next to the forum and her website, which she is currently translating into English, Ester gives readings and presentations at pet conventions all around The Netherlands, is writing a book and writes articles for several magazines.
Thanks to her, pets all around the Dutch speaking region are relieved from dry food, chemical pet food and the harmful veterinarian drugs that mostly accompany that because of the health issues that arise sooner or later.
Many pets heal even when given up by vets, when their mommies or daddies find Ester’s forum.
And so did our two boys Lucky and Spike, which would not have been with us today if Ester would not have started her forum. If that counts for me, for how many others will it count?

So Ladies and Gentlemen, without Further ado, I give you Esther.

Ask all your questions about raw food in this topic.
Do you need help with a 7 day menu for your precious carnivore? Ask Ester!

Ester if I said anything not correct, please correct me :P

And now I give the word to you, Ester and all AND-ers looking for raw food answers!

With raw and fresh greetings,

Josepha

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Last edited by Josepha on Fri Sep 26, 2008 11:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 9:33 am 
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Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2008 10:18 pm
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Location: uk
Hi Josepha,
I have been feeding my cats raw food for a few years now but I would love to ask Ester some questions. Sorry for being dumb but I cant see how to do it :oops:
Thanks
Colette


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 9:45 am 
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Location: Norway
If I should start, I have a five year old german wirehaired poiner who always has had a bit dry fur and feet 8under the feet, don't know the english name..).

I would like to feed her raw, or at least partly raw - but she really don't eat if I give her a peace of meat of a fish... :lol:

Small pieces or meat made for dinner she eats though...

But I don't know what she would need if I should feed her only raw....

Any suggestions?


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 10:29 am 
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Hi Colette :)
Nothing dumb about it!
Just write down your questions here in this topic like Kirsti did.
Ester will be with us asap 8)

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 11:24 am 
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And I'll put this here, nice and tidy all in one subject :)

Image



Tom's website:
http://www.rawmeatybones.com/

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 12:18 pm 

Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 8:03 pm
Posts: 14
Location: Netherlands
Hi Josepha and all,

It is my pleasure to be here and reading the discussions and it's so wonderful that this is an International website. Yes, it's really a privilege to be a guest on a forum like this. I really hope that I can help all of you. I'll do the best I can.
My English is not always correctly so sorry for that.

I live in the Netherlands with my two cats and Argos. Lara is living by my parents right now.

A few years ago, when one of our dogs, Lara, had a lot of problems with her health I asked myself how that could be. She was fed by a so called “premium kibble” though she had a bad skin and a bad coat, dirty teeth wich gave a terrible smell and she had a very thin coat with a lot of flakes. Her faeces were never how they should be. Even giving her a lot of other brands ( and we really tried a lot ) didn’t work out. Even worse: it became from bad to worse. Although Lara was just 4 years old she looked like a very old dog. She no longer was the beautifull dog she used to be. Our vet thought that Lara had a chicken-allergy and gave us a spray that should prevent her from scratching.

In my surroundings I saw a lot of other unhealthy dogs. Some dogs with sever kidney problems, some with diarrhea, while other dogs were facing dental problems. If the commercial foods were so good and healty, how could these dogs have all this problems??

Thanks to an animal discussion board I got in touch with sites about raw petfood. I started to feed Lara raw food a few days a week but the result was not yet what I hoped for. Although it sounded a little bit strange and scary in the beginning I made the switch to full-time raw food. The result was really amazing: within two weeks we had a completely different dog!! Her coat was shining like it had never done before and the bald spots disappeared! Her teeth were white and clean within a few days. Lara’s faeces became how they should be: compact and small.

This is Lara when she was fed kibble:
Image

And two weeks after, when she was fed raw food:
Image
Image

This was the reason for me to inform people about the fact that there is another way to feed pets. At the end of november 2005, me and a few others started our own forum so that we could inform people about the benefits of raw food. Meanwhile there are veterinarians, breeders, animal behaviour experts etc who all advice people about raw natural petfood. Although our team has changed various times, our goal has always remained the same.

Threw the years I began to write articles in magazines and on websites in the hope that people would make the switch like I did. I started giving seminars and started to become active in giving information on animal events.

Oh, before I forget. This is Argos, my Australian Cattle Dog. He never had any kibble in his life. Even his breeder fed him raw meaty bones.(he's 16 months old now)

Image


Since the appearence of the commercial pet-foods an empy waiting room by a vet is an exception. Since we began to feed our pets commercial non-natural foods we notice a lot more health problems. It really is the time to take a step in another direction. It’s time that we become closer with nature.

For me there is only one way to feed our animals: Feeding by the Laws of Nature.

Well that's it for now. I'll answer your questions as soon as possible.

Wishing you all the very best of good health and a lot of joy by feeding your carnivores pets.

Ester Overman.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 12:48 pm 

Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 8:03 pm
Posts: 14
Location: Netherlands
Kirsti wrote:
If I should start, I have a five year old german wirehaired poiner who always has had a bit dry fur and feet 8under the feet, don't know the english name..).

I would like to feed her raw, or at least partly raw - but she really don't eat if I give her a peace of meat of a fish... :lol:

Small pieces or meat made for dinner she eats though...

But I don't know what she would need if I should feed her only raw....

Any suggestions?


Hi Kirsti,
What kind of meat-products have you already tried? Some dogs (but cats are most of the time even worse) are addicted to the (chemical) additives in kibble.
These animals have to get used to the new texture, and flavour of the raw food.

In that case you have to change the diet just a little bit slowly. Just provide your dog small pieces of raw food. Don't tease your animals by giving them too large pieces of meat or bones.
In my humble opinion: begin with muscle meat (red meat) or green tripe.
Have you ever tried to feed green tripe? Most of the dogs just love it!! :D
If your dog will eat it, you can give him larger pieces. After a few weeks most of the dogs are just eating very large bones etc.

This article contains some basic information for dogs:

Quote:
The new tendency in dogland: Rather fresh than something else!
A lot more people realise that their dog doesn’t need to eat the same food every day. Like their bosses they are crazy about some variaton and difference in their food. With the right nutritif products this variation is not a problem at all. Let’s take a look into the world of Natural Raw Food!

Yes, they really exists: dogowners who prepare every day in their kitchen a meal for their dog. ( cat or ferret ). These meals exist out of raw meaty bones, red meat ( muscle meat ) and organes well or not complemented with eggs, vegetables, milk- and sereal products. Also the raw feeding happening is in fact the rediscovery of old values. In the early days everybody fed this way with satisfaction. It is through the apearance of the two Austalian vets Dr. Tom Lonsdale and Dr. Ian Billinghurst that it came in ‘the picture’ again. Slowly the amount of people in the dogworld increases enormously that composes ( partly ) themselves or gives raw food. Partly this is started because we have been thinking more and more about our own feedingpaterns and we like to examine gladly the diet of our dog at the same time. Fresh food is healty, we all have this meaning!

To compose the food yourself can certainly be healthy, but there are things you have to be cautious about. First of all: take care to give the food raw. Cooked or heated bones change of structure and start to splinter. Don’t be afraid for the splintering of raw bones: dogspecies in the wild eat their prey also raw. You can give the muscle meat and organs also raw because heating the meat destroys the bacteria and enzymes that are so important for a carnivore. The most reliable percentages for a dog are: 60-70% muscle meat, 15% organs and 15% raw bones. These percentages match the best for animals of prey, also eaten in the wild.

Examples for suitable beginner bones are: chickennecks, chickenwings and bones of a lamb. You may give all the bones of poeltry and rabits, these bones are soft and easy to digest. Never give bones without meat: they digest badly and give to hard faeces. Never give little bones because they can be swollowed on the whole.

Examples of organs are liver, hart and kidneys. You can also give lungs but this has not much nutritif value and a lot of dogs refuste to eat it because of the structure. Tripe is also an organ but because of the many benefits you can give it up to three times a week.

Muscle meat is very important for a dog. The best way to understand it is that everything that isn’t organ, is muscle meat for example: headmeat, cuttings etc. A dog doesn’t need to eat “complete” every day: you just have to take care that your dog get everything what he needs in a period of three weeks. You can also be warned for “all meat syndrome”. This isn’t a scientific term and no ‘natural raw feeder’ will only feed raw (organ)meat.

As we all know fish is very healthy for people. This is also the case for dogs. Fish is an important source of omega fatty acids. These omega acids contribute to the condition of skin/coat, lubrification of the joints and they are good for heart and bloodvesels. Therefore you could give your dog fish once a week. The good ao called
‘fat fishes’ are for example: salmon, tune, macrel, sardines. But give this fish raw: heating the fish causes britle and splintering fishbones.

You can make the meal of your dog more attractive by adding soms eggs to the menu ( give only raw whole eggs ) or a bit yoghurt. Vegetables are not necessary for dogs because dogs can make vitamine C by themselves. You can also give some nuts en pits to your dog as so called fiber. In the wild wolves will eat the nails and hairs of their preys which have benefits for a good digestion. You can add two spoons every meal.

Maybe you get dizzy from all this information and maybe you think it’s nothing for you. Fortunatley there is a solution for this: in most supermarkets and in almost every petshop there are ready, raw complete meals for sale. Although this is grinded and not far as good as big pieces of meat who avoid paradontal diseases, it can be a second choice for people that can’t compose themselves, but want to offer some variety for their pet.

If you compose yourself it’s not only healty but also the perfect way to give some more attention to your dog. Let’s say it in short: it brings some action in everydays live, for dog and dog-owner!

Ester Overman


Quote:
Feeding raw to cats:
People often think that some cats are just fastidious when it comes to food. This in fact is not true. Many people are convinced about the fact that their cat only like to eat expensive brands and anything cheaper is not good enough.
Meanwhile the same cats are feeding on the cheap catfood from the neighbours. They just try to feed on what tastes best. Can we blame them?


When wild cats eat, they rip their prey or carrion to pieces, so they can swallow it bit by bit. The stomach contains gastic acids wich make digestion possible. The fluid from the food for the main part is being absorbed in the large intestine. This fluids are essential; A cat that doesn't obtain enough fluids, either threw drinking or feeding, can develop sever kidneyproblems and problems with there urine blatter. Many cats develope this problems when the feed on kibble. Cats normally don't drink a lot because their body is used to the fact that food will provide enough fluids. When you feed a cat dry kibbles a cat needs to drink a lot more water then he normally should.Raw meat and bones provides their body with enough fluids. This way the healthproblems wich are described here can be prevented. The intestens of a cat are barely 2 meters long wich is normal for a carnivorous animal of this size. Therefore food without vegetable fibres are better for the digestion. Katten hebben geen behoefte aan granen wanneer je besluit zelf samen te gaan stellen, de koolhydraten die een kat nodig heeft worden al uit het vlees opgenomen. When you decide to put together a diet for your cat you need to realise that grains are not one of thier needs. Al the carbohydrates a cta need are in the meat he is used to feed on.

When you decide to start to feeding natural food, try to feed as much meat, bones and organs as possible. Offcourse it's best to use natural prey. Mainly; Birds, Rabbit, hare, and small rodents are good food for a cat. An average adult cat feeds on 100-200 grams of a diet wich are put together with this prey items. The most natural percentages 3-5% liver, 10% heart, 10-15% bones and 70-77% muscular meat. Muscular meat is all meat wich are not organs.This percentages should beprovided every day. In contrast to dogs, cats eat complete preyitems on a daily basis. Therefore this percentages are good for daily use. After al in nature they feed on this percentages every day.

When you use this percentages, you no longer need to be afraid that your cat will suffer a lack of taurine because the percentages are balanced very well with the use of natural prey. Taurine especillialy is present in the heart so when you feed like 10% heart, your cat will receve enough taurine. Don't feed any green tripe to you cate. In Nature they are not used to eat it.

Not all cats seem to act really gratefull when you offer them natural food for the first time. They often have to get used to the different texture, smell and taste. In commercial Catfood extra smell and taste is added to the food to make it extra tasty for your pet. Try not to give in to soon when a cat doesn't eat a lot of it right a way. Mixing raw meat with canned catfood can help concincing a cat to eat his meal the first times. Try to vary as many types of meat as possible and different ways of offering it. Grinding the meat into smaller pieces for example can help a lot when your cat refuses to eat it. One warning: Cat's shouldn't skip to many meals like dogs can. Cats, especially to fat cats, can suffer steatosis hepatis (fattly liver) because of that.

Kittens eat the same as adult cats, but in smaller quantities. It's important to use your feeling when you decide how much you feed your cat.
This is a menu for a cat weighing 4 kilograms.
In between you can occasionally feed one day old chicks.

Mo: Heart 40 gramms, kidney 20 grams, hare muscular meat 75 grams
Tu: Chickennecks 60 grams, heart, 15 grams, hare muscular meat 60 grams.
We: Chickennecks 40 grams, Rabbitliver 15 grams, Turkey muscular meat 80 grams.
Th: Chicken carcass 60 grams, Rabitkidney 25 grams, chicken filet 70 grams.
Fr: Chicken 120 grams, duckheart 20 grams
Sa: Hare muscular meat 110 grams, liver 25 grams
Su: Chicken carcass 40 grams, heart 20 grams, chicken filet 75 grams


Cheers,
Ester


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 9:07 pm 
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Joined: Fri May 18, 2007 1:20 pm
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Location: Poland
Hi, this seems to be very interesting :) maybe finally I'll change for raw food - if not tomorrow, then in few months when we will move to a house with garden, cause I have heard that feeding dogs like this can be a dirty process 8)
So I have few questions...
I was told that chicken bones are dangerous for dogs, because they break into sharp "needles" and they can pinch the intestines. But I see that there are chicken carcasses in the menu - aren't you worried about that?
What about dogs which are allergic to food? My golden retriever used to have many food allergies (and she's also allergic to some insects if they bite her), and it was hard to find proper food for her. She also has food for old (less energetic) and large dogs (some vitamins against hip dysplasia, etc.). And raw food - isn't it "one for all"?
When she had those allergies (or anything else), the vet told me to feed her with boiled chicken meat and rice. Is it something like raw diet?
I see that raw is different than BARF - what is the difference, and why?
I have to admit that I'm really ignorant about this subject! :oops: I promised to study it, but I never did, and now my own dog is old! :lol:
Here are some "artistic" photos of her, taken today ;)

http://picasaweb.google.pl/pisztu/Aila? ... wfWb1julQ#

On the last photo she's standing crooked, which makes me worry... I think that she already has dysplasia in her left hip :( the vet who x-rayed her hips when she was a puppy, sayed that she's perfectly fine - but when she was 8 I found a specialist who is a dog orthopaedist, and he sayed that it's not so nice... her left hip started to deteriorate and right was still okay, but he sayed that she can suffer from it later. Fortunately, her elbows were okay. This makes me stick to dry food, because they claim that it's especially for a dog with such problems.
But if not for her, raw would be great for our yorkie, who is one year old and already has terrible smell from his mouth! Although it's always worse with miniature dogs, comparing to larger ones... plus, he's very choosy, so he eats almost nothing and yet he's never tired!
And what about too fat spayed westie? ;)

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 8:20 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2008 10:18 pm
Posts: 103
Location: uk
Thanks Josepha,
and hello Ester its so great to have you here
:D
My questions are these:
I have 5 cats and their diet is not perfect I have to admit.
They have raw chicken about 4 meals a week. Normally thighs and drumsticks.
They have raw eggs 1 meal a week with fish oil and brewers yeast.
The rest of the time they have tinned pilchards which I rinse to get rid of the salt.

Because I will only buy them free range and organic where possible it is very expensive. That is why they dont have raw meat always instead of the pilchards. (I am vegan and would love them to be too! I know they cant but I wont buy them factory farmed meat!!).

I have two cats which have very bad flea allergies so I am wondering what I can do to boost their immune systems or if you have some idea what I can do with their diet to help that.

Also, do they not need some vegetables? I thought that because their prey are normally herbivores that they get the food the prey has in its stomach?

Look forward to your answers but please dont think me rude if I dont reply quickly as I am away again for a few days from tomorrow.
Thank you
:D
Colette


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 8:30 pm 
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Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 3:20 pm
Posts: 1822
Location: Norway
Thank you Esther - what is green tripe??

I think that is probably it - I have started too fast. I have noticed when I try small peaces she will eat - big peaces not (I used to have two dogs, and the other ate anything - the bigger the better, but the one I have now used to just chew it a bit and then give it to the other. Now, as we only have her - she don't even bother to chew the big peaces....).

I will read your articles more, and ask if I don't get it. And then try to cut the meat more....

Thank you, really really nice to have you here. I have missed very much people this buisy with dogs health as you are. In the horseworld you find them everywhere these days - but I have missed the ons for the dogs. So I have plenty to learn here...


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 10:12 am 
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Joined: Sun May 04, 2008 7:26 pm
Posts: 247
Location: Finland
Great to have you here Esther :cheers:

I am switching my puppy to raw food, she is now 6 months old. One thing I am most hesitant about right now is the bones/calcium. At the moment I still give next to no bones but just ground egg shells. Everywhere people warn to not overfeed calcium to puppies, as they contrary to adult dogs can't get rid of the excess and it supposedly does cause then some kind of harm.

I was thinking that natural calcium from bones should be no problem, as wild dogs might also "overeat" on the optimal bone amount. As you did simplify the BARF, if I understood correctly, I would be most interested in those simplifications. :D

@Kirsti. Here in the wikipedia you can read about tripe: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tripe
Basically it is the stomachs of cows. The green tripe is not cleaned and bleached. It is somewhat smelly therefore :lol: Must be why dogs usually love it. :wink: The green stuff is half digested greens and that makes it very healthy for the dogs.

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http://www.youtube.com/user/FinhorsesAndPinscher
http://basichorsemanship.blogspot.com/


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 10:35 am 
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Location: Norway
Thank you Andrea! (And where in the world do you get them?? At the slaughterhouse???)


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 1:38 am 
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Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 5:01 pm
Posts: 1479
Location: Quebec, Canada
This topic is so interesting since I'm in the process of changing my cat's food (from dry food bought at the vet's to an American company called natures variety (www.naturesvariety.com).
their idea is variety - raw meal, dry meal and I forget the third type). but it does make sense.
My question though is that I have a 13 y.o. male cat (castrated) with a kidney problem and needs a special diet. I have two cats that vomit all the time and I believe it's their food since they're not vomiting furballs.
Ester: have you heard that raw food will stop or at least reduce the vomiting. Also, what about the kidney problem.
The representative in my region is on vacation under the 12th of October so I was supposed to meet her then to discuss this but someone else's opinion would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Jocelyne


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 9:16 pm 
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Joined: Sun May 04, 2008 7:26 pm
Posts: 247
Location: Finland
@Kirsti. In many countries it seems that slaughterhouses do sell the tripe, or your local butcher. It took me a while to find a source here, as my Finish is till not that good. But then I asked my husband to check for a fin BARF forum - as on those they usually give tips where to get the stuff. Now I know there is a shop in the next bigger city that sells tripe, meaty bones and such.

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http://www.youtube.com/user/FinhorsesAndPinscher
http://basichorsemanship.blogspot.com/


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 6:23 am 
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Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 3:20 pm
Posts: 1822
Location: Norway
Yes, Andrea - that's a good idea..

I thaught for a start I should do the second best - to buy the finished mixtures (we have some pretty good made for seld-dogs wich they sell in special places) and then just add some more to that. Else it will be too much for me at the moment (I have so much with the horses and their health now - or Vilja and her health to be more correct...)


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