The Art of Natural Dressage

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 3:22 am 

Joined: Sun Jun 07, 2009 4:24 pm
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Location: Hungary
Leigh:

"I don't think the a lot of the content of your ideas is necessarily all that different from those of the folks who've been responding to you."
This is what I myself thought too, just you wrote many thing I did not find logic, this is why I ask and argue. I think in a very very different way than most people and this is why my point of vew can be very different and sometimes I just simply do not see logic in what others say.

"However, I think you're making people bristle a little bit with your tone"
I know, and I am dorry for that but I am like this. I try to be kinder with people all the time though.

"I only have a problem with it, when people use it, as you suggested in your first post, to make other people feel like a "noob.""
And this is why I stated that you yourself should know the jargon well, so when somebody tries to look smart by using special words, you will know them and can answer easily. And then he can only use his Intelliegnce in wich he may fail - or maybe not, but anyway he can't simply dispact you by talking in jargon. If you know the jargon you can still talk with a small child without the jargon, but can use it when talking to a sportsman for example. Sportsmen are usually love to show themselves very smart by using many nice sounding jargon word.

"the Bible was in Latin because it was mysterious, profound, and somehow untouchable by the great unwashed."
true but this is a bit different, since your audience are not people who do not know more about horses than that the end that kicks is the rump and the end that bites is the head. Here there are horse people. In this way, using the Bible example, you talking about translating the Bible forthose who are learning to became priests. It can be done and no harm in it bot they will and should learn latin anyway.

Of course it is good if for those who are really beginners you can tell things simple, but if they start to learn, you will tach them the jargon soon. The first time you show them a saddle, you will most likely tell the name of each part of the saddle, don't you? If somebody is learning on a field, that person should know the field's jargon, or at least start to learn it. Professionalism (With this word I mean having exact knowledge, experience and knowing what you are doing) includes the knowledge of the jargon. And anyway, it is not a problem if these are special words since thos who do not do anything with horses have absolutely noo need for them. This is why the Bible is a bad example, since it was a thing meant to be known by very single human why this is a "profession" or "art" that only those should know who are really interested in it.

"Its intent was to keep the power of the religious experience firmly in the hands of the religious community. "
In the horseworld, not the jargon is what is used for this purpose. The books of the old masters are extremly hard to find, if even there is an existign english translation, as 90% of them has no any kind of translation, you can either read it in medieval spanish or french or in no way. This is what should be changed, and in a general way, knowledge is kept secret. Go to an ordinary riding school and aske pupil what is collection. Most of them will have no idea. Also in sport they claim that sport dressage is the highest level of horsemanship and harmony though it is only a miserable parody of classical dressage, in the 99% of cases.

"And again, with reference to your comments about AND and Parelli, I don't think you're understanding what I'm saying. No one is claiming anything as being the belonging or creation or possession of AND."
I understood this from the very beginning. Again, all I said was that calling methods AND methdos just because you would use similar is like calling everything savvy just because Paerlli uses similar. The whol argument started from that I found it bad choice to say that masters hunderds of years abefore AND used AND methods. In my way of thinking this is unlogical. Later than it was desribed that you mean something like "this is something that fits into this philosophy" instead. So this topic is already very over discussed.

"I was pointing out that Donald has been a professional in exceedingly legitimate ways."
Then sorry if i misunderstood it.

"your implication that there is no one here who could/would consider themselves professional "
This I haven't said. I was talking about general impression, about what in my opinion most average outsider would see. Why I take care about this anyway is that I think the only way to really help horses in the world is to make the masses think and the only way to make the masses think is talking in a way as many as possible finds wirthy for listening to.

"did you know that the root of the word "amateur" is amat -- Latin for love? An amateur is someone who does something for the love of it. When did that become pejorative?"
An "amateur" was originally a person who likes an art or science but he himself has no knowledge or talent in it, but since he loves it, he supports professionals, usually by money or giving the space for working, etc. Nowadays we would call them "sponsor" or something like that. Since when it is used in pejorative ways too is a good question, but even if not pejorative, its meaning is a person who loves to do something but has no deep knowledge in it.

"To know that I will not be told I'm wrong"
maybe it's just be but I actually expect to being told if I am wrong. How could I find my mistakes and realise I am wrong of nobody tells me?

"without being judged or lectured."
I just wished to express that I disagree, I am very sorry if I offended.

What I always try is to make things clear. There are things like philosophy in wich many possibilites can work but there are things where you can decide if something is right or not. And the only way to make something clear is to argue, to express and examine different opinions. So when I disagree in such a thing I want to continue until
A, Others find out that I am right
B, Others can prove me that I am wrong and we find the right solution.
In both ways we have concensus at last.

I myself used to defend my own opinion strong, thats how I am like. But it does not mean I do not consider what the other says.


About spreading the word, well, 500. Is that a lot or a few? Relative. But according to how many horse-people exist in the word, it is a very few. I do not say this is bad, it is right if only those became part of the community who are ibnterested in it, but I would like to help as many hrses as possible. How many horses you help by this? If we say the usually each person have one horse, than 500. But let's say 1000. That is still a very very few. But if you let numerous people find out that there are much more gentle methods, much more horses you help.

"This is a far more Zen approach to spreading the word"
Well, how many zen monks are living in your country? Here only 3. This is how many people they reached during some thousands of years here. The difference that in teh case of Zen practice, you are doing it only for yourself, and if you do not know about it it may be only your loss. But in this cases millions of horses are bing tortured every day thanks to the ignorance of their owners.

Not everybody must be mmer of such a community. Not everybody must be so spiritual with their horses. But everybody should at least know abou that there is better way than riding with briddle and spur.


Best wishes
Storm

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 3:30 am 
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I try, Storm, each day, to start with asking my horse what she wants, and her baby too for that matter. I forget sometimes, and my day with them goes less well I think.

Just as, if I would forget to ask my wife about her plans for the day, my day with her might be less than ideal.

It's a matter of respect.

I read Josepha's comments about taking the lead from the horse, and to me that is all that it means. While I might fail at times, if I maintain true respect for what the horse is, its magnificence, it's peculiar mentality derived from its millions of years as a prey animal, it majesty that comes from it's perfection of that relationship of prey to predator, then we might have a good day. And usually do.

For I find the horse most forgiving and tolerant of my predatory bumbling, as I work to remember that she is not food, but instead my friend and companion if I respect her.

I think we, especially men in fact, are still in thrall to our ancient hunter instincts and its necessary skills and attitude. It means we look for control. We look at the horse for its vulnerabilities, rather than its various strengths and positive attributes. I suspect when we, in ancient times, viewed the horse we saw meat, while the female of ours species tended to see more. That's why I so often defer to women in the horse world if I cannot decide what might be going on for the horse, and for our relationship. I come here to refresh my memory about this association of human female and the prey animal, horse.

Not that women cannot make some really stupid assumptions too about the horse, that are not true and are damaging to the horse. But I trust that even they will succumb, if they have half a chance, to their childhood, when they were in touch with the beauty, and longed for a friend in the horse.

They were right. We who, in the horse handling orthodoxy, focused on mastery of the horse, control of the horse, compliance from the horse, power to us, disempowerment to the horse, were and are wrong.

Unless of course we wish to continue the ancient way of cruelty to the horse.

That's the easy way.

The real challenge, at least for me, is to overcome that. To find the way to being more than a predator, both in mind and spirit. My instincts were to kill the horse, or conquer it and use it to death, but also in my own ancient past were every female that saw the horse a bit differently. And I hear their call to me as well as from my forefathers.

So much for AND.

There is a way more nourishing to me than eating their meat.

This way is to share life.

Donald

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~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 3:43 am 
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Storm, I believe we, AND folks, and you are not so far apart. Only that you are sorting out the language to use so that you are understood.

I do disagree that we need, for the horse's sake, to speak the special language of the proprietary horse world.

I think that many amateurs, those as you say that do a discipline of interest out of love for it, bring very special opportunities to the more orthodox by their fresh view, and that they may well see things in ways we old timers with all our experience have never seen before.

I have experienced this here at AND.

I further iterate the same as I did before. Many of us do NOT care what the orthodox think of us. Our rewards aren't found especially in approval of others, but more in the rich returns found in our day to day relationship with our horses.

Sometimes it even amounts to a rehabilitation, sometimes painful, but often and mostly very rewarding.

I cannot fully describe, nor expect others to understand very well, that I am rehabilitating my own professional experience. It's hard. I fail at times. I "make," the horse do something, and then regret that I failed to ask and accept the response I get.

I have to deal with my guilt about that, and stay strong to come back for another try. Thankfully my "therapist and teacher," is a creature most tolerant and forgiving if I can stay respectful.

And when in doubt I tend, as I hope others do, to return to the one saving grace that always works: play. If I fail in my effort to be respectful then I will resort to play. Bonnie likes me for that.

Donald

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Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 4:04 am 

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The two genders are different in many way as well amongs humans as other amongst animals (basically humans are animals too). In ancient cultures that were mostly matriarchic, wome were the symbols, and keepers of wisdom, and also since these ancient religions were worshipping a great mother goddes, or Earthmother, wome were the projection of the mother goddess. Wome are also the keepers of the power of creation by being able to give life to another.

Still I have never said that you should change your practice, or that it would be wrong, I only said I look things a bit different.


I know somebody and a bounch of people followng that person. Their statement is also that the horse is in charge. The result is: their horses are simply ignoring them, they have no any respect and what they does is often extremly dangerous. The whole thing leads nowhere. A horse is in charge and they do not even try to guide, of course nothing workd for them really. They even found out that since the horse is the big boss, humans have no right to sit on the horses' back. I guess the next will be that the horses should sit on the humans?

So anyway that is just an example of how stating tha horse is in charge can lead to total anarchy. And this is why when somebody tells me that the horse is in charge, I have bad feelings at first.

Again I say that nobody should be in charge. What I say is that you must be the one the horse trust, who he can rely on.
You give him food and water, you clean him, you help him get rid of parazites, you take care abou his afety, you tell him what places are dangerous to go, or what things should not be done. You teach him that humans are not that though and if he bites you playfully as he does with other horses that can seriously injure you, you teach him how to tell you if they want food, or you wor out the common language on wich he can say you no or yes. You teach them to stay calm while the vet does its work, while you shape his hoofs or check his teeth. You treat his injuries if he gets one and you give him medication if relly needed. All in all, this is whyt I call being the leader.
In my opinion what you do is still being a leader, you ask them where to go or what to do but you are still a leader they have chosen themselves, they have chone you to trust, and if there is a problem they let you do what is needed to solve the problem, because they trust, respect and love you as you trust resoect and love them.

What I say is more a lik a philosophycal difference but I am talking about the same you are talking about.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 4:12 am 

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"Storm, I believe we, AND folks, and you are not so far apart."
I know that.


And again about orthodox riders, I have never said their opinion should influence what you do nor that they should be here. All I say that is would be good to show much more orhtodox rider that there are many other way they could at least try out.


And anywy I really hate to talk about serious things over the Internet. In person it is much more easy for me to express myself, or if you would see me how I communicate with horses you would understand quickly how I am like.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 5:34 am 
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Storm wrote:
The two genders are different in many way as well amongs humans as other amongst animals (basically humans are animals too). In ancient cultures that were mostly matriarchic, wome were the symbols, and keepers of wisdom, and also since these ancient religions were worshipping a great mother goddes, or Earthmother, wome were the projection of the mother goddess. Wome are also the keepers of the power of creation by being able to give life to another.

Still I have never said that you should change your practice, or that it would be wrong, I only said I look things a bit different.

Actually, Storm, if you read closely what you have written, after giving it a rest for a few days you'll see that indeed your approach is that we are "wrong." And our practices are "wrong." But, that is the nature of debate. Sometimes we say things we do not mean. And in the written word that is easily seen as something different than your intention.
Storm wrote:

I know somebody and a bounch of people followng that person. Their statement is also that the horse is in charge. The result is: their horses are simply ignoring them, they have no any respect and what they does is often extremly dangerous. The whole thing leads nowhere. A horse is in charge and they do not even try to guide, of course nothing workd for them really. They even found out that since the horse is the big boss, humans have no right to sit on the horses' back. I guess the next will be that the horses should sit on the humans?

I logic, and debate, such an argument is referred to, as you might alread know, as the argument of reduction to the absurd, reductio absurdum, I think is the latin term.

No, we don't intend for our horses to sit on us humans, but we do enjoy sitting down together side by side from time to time. ;)
Storm wrote:
So anyway that is just an example of how stating tha horse is in charge can lead to total anarchy. And this is why when somebody tells me that the horse is in charge, I have bad feelings at first.

You are not alone in your feelings. Many do feel the same way. It usually eases up if they stay and learn. Just read with as objective a mind as you can muster. It all kind of falls together. In fact, in this very thread, if you read back up it, you'll find a great deal of information that strongly suggests that we do not wish our horses to sit on us, nor do we wish harm to anyone, even our selves.

And further, that we do what we do with far LESS harm than so often comes to those that handle horses in the orthodoxy of "performance." Eventing, stadium jumping, even dressage as it's ridden today, come under suspicion for injury to one or the other, horse, or rider. With all the strange things we do with our horses in our methods described as AND, not one of us has been killed. Did you know that death of horses, and the occasional human is seen in Eventing? And what could be more practiced with "good," horsemanship, as you use the term, than eventing?

I do not think it so. And I think that thinking so is an error in thinking. A failure of logic. I do hope you do not take offense but rather take another look logically and objectively to orthodoxy in horsemanship, and AND horsemanship.

View a few videos of some or our members at "wild play," with our horses and know that injuries, are few, and those that do happen are inconsequential usually. A scrape, a bump, occasionally falling off the horse.

Yet, without bits, and often with no bridle, we rarely have a horse "run away," yet you hear of this often in the orthodox world. In fact, in this orthodox horse world just in the U.S. on average 20 people a year are killed. I daresay bits and bridles likely figured in many instances, along with standard horse handling practices.

Storm wrote:
Again I say that nobody should be in charge. What I say is that you must be the one the horse trust, who he can rely on.
You give him food and water, you clean him, you help him get rid of parazites, you take care abou his afety, you tell him what places are dangerous to go, or what things should not be done. You teach him that humans are not that though and if he bites you playfully as he does with other horses that can seriously injure you, you teach him how to tell you if they want food, or you wor out the common language on wich he can say you no or yes. You teach them to stay calm while the vet does its work, while you shape his hoofs or check his teeth. You treat his injuries if he gets one and you give him medication if relly needed. All in all, this is whyt I call being the leader.

I tend to think of it as "the parent." Because of the disparity of our power, we being the more powerful in the larger picture, that is we humans having even the direct power of life or death, and the ability to hold them in captivity, it appears we are "the leader."

But just as with children, a horse can be my sensei, my teacher, my mentor. And still I can be the one responsible for food, shelter, health, etc.

Storm wrote:

In my opinion what you do is still being a leader, you ask them where to go or what to do but you are still a leader they have chosen themselves, they have chone you to trust, and if there is a problem they let you do what is needed to solve the problem, because they trust, respect and love you as you trust resoect and love them.

Hmmm...I am unaware of many horses having chosen their humans. To me they seem to do this after testing us. Some even never choose us at all. But are simply owned and parked like a car.
Storm wrote:


What I say is more a lik a philosophycal difference but I am talking about the same you are talking about.


I'm afraid you aren't. But then what AND is, and what we are about, isn't clear to you yet. Heck, sometimes it's not even clear to me. I grow in AND each day, and often make discoveries.

Just recently I believe I have discovered something I think is remarkable but not magic, though it's nice to think it is.

I believe the horse's sensory system for smell is capable of extracting much more information from the molecules that make up a scent, a compound most likely, and that a part of their brain can interpret this in ways we can only dream of for ourselves.

I am experimenting with it in a primitive way with my little 3-4 month old filly each day now. I think nice thoughts, things go on as usual. I think evil thoughts about her and she reacts negatively. Even explicitly wrinkling her nose at my nasty evil thoughts. Or nuzzling me sweetly when I think nice loving thoughts, and we exchange breaths.

Tell me, can the orthodox horse world come up with jargon to describe this possible new discovery? (That I bet some ancients knew quite well).

Rather than offering your philosophy, though you could start a website forum on your agenda easily enough, why not read more here and come back and ask questions and speculate with us on what AND is for us, and what it appears to be by your views some more.

Best wishes to you, Donald

PS. What I am looking for now with Bonnie is clearing my mind, reading her breath with my own scent detection and interpretation and learning what SHE is thinking and feeling. Think I can do it? Darned if I know, but the possibility is more than worth the effort. DR
Image

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 10:13 am 
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Storm,

Some short explanantions.
Yes we do use words like piaffe of course.
But still, to one piaffe means, jerking the horses mouth with the kandare and stabbing him with spurs to make him do something that looks like 'bear on hot platter'
For others it means a horse collected from within.

For new things, we find new words. Why not? The old masters invented new things, and good that they did, is it not?
And this forum is about letting go of tradition and finding health, fun and communication.
For instance: 'chase the tiger' and I have found many new exercises in training my pupils like 'crossovers' :funny: and 'poing poing legs'.

When I say O is in charge it is quite simple, it it not? He is 550 kg I am 50 :funny:
But, you have to have a certain relationship with a horse and you have to understand when the horse asks you certain things. If you do not respond, you can get in trouble with certain horses.
Also, this can not happen overnight. If you first did it 'the old fashion way' and then say well you are in charge, that will of course not work.

How I have done it, is to first let the horse be in charge of himself by giving him the right to say 'No' at all times. Then I was going more and more to react on his requests, and I am glad i did so, for then I saw how intelligent and wise horses are, and how benficial his choices where for me! :ieks:
From that in several years O and I came to the point where I let him by in charge most of the time and for the rest I ask if it is okay to take over and I explain why.
Luckily, he now values my opinion from past experience.

Now when I ride (and I teach it this way too) I react on what the horse askes for and try to give him that, so he can find his natural balance again and do again, what horses do.
For the rest I study my actions and the horses reaction. Taking only what is helpful to both of us.
It is an action-reaction game. A dance in which the horse obviously leads.
When the other way around, you get the image, -to my taste- that has little to do with being a horse. (For me, an example would be grand prix dresssage or the race track etc.)

Again, if something has not work for others, that does not have to mean it will not work for me.
A billion different people, millions different horses.
And that is what is so great about it.

Now about the classical. Before AND started, when I was on a classical forum, I got bitten down for riding without bit and spurs. I was not classical, for they up hold tradition first and fore most.
When on an other forum which you might remember, I called one rider classical because he showed the classical movements (though without bridle and spurs), I got bitten down again, for he was certainly not classical, I was blind, for he used no spurs and was not punishing his horses into obedience etc.
So many people, so many different views on classical dressage I have seen the last 20 years.
So I leave it at that.

Okay, okay... I thought... so I'll start something new. Natural Academic Riding Art (what I teach my pupils) and as Miriam did not ride she came up with the name Art of Natural Dressage for this forum and it has been ever since.

And that is based (again) upon the fact that we do not have to teach the horse anything.
The horse knows how to canter, pirouette, levade, do laterals etc. You see it when they are just that: horse.
To me it is ignorent thinking one teaches the horse what he is born to do. Do horses have to teach me to write? I think not :funny:
The only thing we humans have to do, is letting the horse florish in being horse by giving him a natural life and set up communication so we can ask the horse to show us his 'cool power stuff' and reward him for it with all he loves...
There it is. So there can be no confusion. :)

In any case, Storm, again, this forum is a study group in which we all set up a diary.
Maybe you should first read through some of those, and read the exercises in the groundwork section and riding section like all the other new comers do and then start to participate.

And you do not have to agree one bit with me nor I with you, great isn't.
If any more questions about my training, please read my diary and ask questions there.

Regards,

Josepha

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 1:30 pm 

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Just a brief original (I hope) sentence and a suggestion about a good, old book.

"Dealing with scientifically correct understanding of nature, good principles are merely excellent blinders".

The art of controversy, by A. Schopenhauer: http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/10731 (just to understand controversy tricks and the deep difference between a controversy and a discussion)

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 5:24 pm 
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Alex wrote:
Well, a great project, Storm, my compliments!

I'll not post any suggestion to you, since some years a go, into a forum, I got this comment about a suggestion I posted:

"Are you trying to teach the teachers?"

A great lesson, an unforgettable one - I'll never work again into an environment where a similar comment can be conceived. [...]


A teacher that isn't learning from their students as a matter of course deserves the title "teacher."

True teachers know this.

The correct answer, in my view, to their question is, "Yes, are you not a teacher to know that simple truth?"

And yes, I've had the occasional faux teacher. I usually didn't do well with them. And I've taught. And each student of mine, from the worst to the best in performance gave me the gift of my teaching tools. At the very least. Some taught me how to be a better human being as well.

I must teach a very reluctant pupil now to take the rope and the halter for her own safety as well as my convenience. Have you met her yet?

In fact, just this morning, she gave me a sweet lesson in patience and tolerance.

I placed a little rope around Bonnie's neck this morning. She doesn't care for it. It's insulting to a princess to be thus treated.

However, when I then asked her to come and exchange breath with me (an important intimate social custom of horses) she did so quite nicely, after only a moment or two hesitation. Is that not a lesson in humility for me, that she would forgive me my little insult of the rope and both listen and speak to me in that dear language of the horse, with our breaths?

Note too that I learned so well from her prior instruction of me that I did not intrude on her space to take and give breath, but instead let her decide if, on my invitation, she wished to. Such a patient teacher Bonnie. If only I could remember this all the time. But I'm only human, after all, not a horse. <sigh>

Donald

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 6:41 pm 
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What a wonderful story...Donald...

And now that you mention it, one who was a great teacher to me was a 14 year old girl who came help me out with the horses for two years...
I taught her, the horses taught her... but oh she taught me a lot as well.
Children can be the best of teachers... whatever specie :love:

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 8:41 pm 
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And again about orthodox riders, I have never said their opinion should influence what you do nor that they should be here. All I say that is would be good to show much more orhtodox rider that there are many other way they could at least try out.


Most of us do, without even trying. I specifically do NOT try. You really can achieve much by "not doing". I never say "watch this!"...in part because it will inevitably not be the most beautiful in that moment, but also, because you know that they ARE watching. Perhaps not intently, but as fate causes them to look at something, they learn something. They may not use it if they are not at the right point in their life to realize the usefulness of it. But simply by doing what we all do here, in our own individual ways, we influence the world immediately surrounding us and seeds are tossed out randomly to grow where they find a good place to take root. No more effort is ever needed. Ideas grow where there is fertile ground. You said that "what is right defends itself", and inevitably that is exactly what happens when it is allowed to happen naturally without trying. If we consciously try too hard, we then feel the need to control the outcomes. That leads to all kinds of frustrations.

So I never say to anyone that they shouldn't use a bit, or that they don't need to use a bit, and I don't even ask them why they use a bit. They just do, for whatever reason, and perhaps one day they won't. I don't always say to people that they should look into this forum. If we are having a conversation however and they ask what influences me, this forum will pop up in the conversation.

As for jargon...it's easy enough to avoid arguing about things like the definition of leadership. It has too many possible definitions. BUT an individual here can use the term freely without having to worry that they will be misunderstood. How? Because you can find their personal definition within the context they use it in. And although we have, most certainly, gone through some topics trying to pin down an exact definition of some things, it tends to run in pointless little circles and there are better ways to spend one's time. I like making up my own terms, or I will tell people that I use some terms loosely, and I'm not afraid to tell people that I don't really know what a certain term means. What I learn and experience doesn't have to make sense to someone else...it only has to make sense to me. It is my truth. If I want others to respect my truth, I have to support the experience of others here and respect their truth. There is no reason on earth for me to make anyone think like I think, believe what I believe, or to be logical. Spirituality isn't always logical and yet we all have our own beliefs. What makes AND special is the open acceptance of the beliefs of others. We do not have to practice the same beliefs in order to respect another's right to indulge in them.

And as Josepha said...yes, there is an exact definition to something like "piaffe", but you won't find two piaffes exactly the same. Some are on the forehand, some are on the haunches and some are balanced in the middle and they all look different and depending on who you are talking to, they are all correct. So even something that can be defined specifically can have a different meaning to everyone.

As has been explained already, AND itself is hard to define in a short sentence or two. Because it's not a method, and because it's philosophically ethereal and personally defined according to each individual, it's very difficult to say that one "does" AND...one more likely "is" AND. We all approach it differently. What makes this forum such a unique and beautiful place, is that we all accept and embrace that idea because it then allows each of us the freedom to express ourselves individually and creatively without worrying whether or not we are conforming to someone else' ideal.

It's a gentle and fascinating chaos here. It's a meadow of wildflowers. As individual and limitless in it's form as snowflakes. There is commonality in both wildflowers and snowflakes, but also countless variations. If there are 500 members here, there are 500 variations. The one certain commonality is that we're all studying in the same library - but we're all reading different books, we interpret them differently based on our own experiences and no one will say which books we should read and which we should not. All libraries have rules, but they are few and they are all based on respect for other library users, and respect for the books themselves. AND is a study group, where we freely share what each contributing member experiences, learns, discovers.

In short, it is rude here to tell someone they are not being logical. If someone chooses to allow their horse to bite, trample them or kick them in the head, we may make gentle suggestions on how to be safe around horses, but if they believe that what they are doing is right, then it is most certainly logical to them and if we wish to support them, then we have to do so within the framework of their personal truth. If they choose to call a piaffe a pesade, or a levade a capriole...well, it's their right to do so. If they feel that their horse loves to have a bit in their mouth, it is not our place to say they are wrong. We can suggest alternatives, but we should not say their truth is flawed (and trust me, this is about the hardest thing to do).

To be here is to support the free development of those wishing to explore what it means to put the horse first. What that exploration results in can only be defined by the individual, not by the group.

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"Ride reverently, as if each step is the axis on which the earth revolves"


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 8:45 pm 
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Quote:
"Dealing with scientifically correct understanding of nature, good principles are merely excellent blinders".


Alex, you made me laugh right out loud. :funny:

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 3:42 am 

Joined: Sun Jun 07, 2009 4:24 pm
Posts: 8
Location: Hungary
Alex,

I have the feeling that you refer to the NHE forum, and maybe it was me who made such comment. If yes, then I am very sorry and apologize. I will be honest: I do not remember too much from the time I spent in NHE, and I do not care about remembering as I feel very ashamed that I myself believed too everything that was told to me...

Why I was a council member, I thought that my position is important and that I am participating in building something great and wonderful. After I was out I started to look into some things that now, from the viewpoint of an outsider I could see more clear. Around that time I watched his new film in russian, reading the english from paper. And that film was the thing that made me realize that something is really wrong, as Alexander showed himself as some kind of chosen one who keeps the old secret knowledge, and will make an ancient prophecy true... that was a bit much. Soon I analyzed the pictures of the "secret book" from teh film, and being a professional graphic designer, I very quickly found many prof of that it is a fake. It didn't even take much time. As a next step I looked into history, including the great masters, and durin one single night, I gathered ten times as much information on them that the whole NHE school has ever had. And that of course proved that there is no even a word truth in what Alexander told to us...
Honestly, his performance, and the atmosphere he created blinded me, as many others. You can't imagin what a special feeling was when I was guest in St. Petersburg for a week. I was invited to a two day closed seminar. Later we met Alexander in one of the elitest teahouses of Petersburg, drinking the best tea I have ever tasted in my life, and eating cake that cost around a thousand Rubels (~25 EUR) per slice. Later we met Alexander in his home, saw his maneige from the inside and met his horses. The whole atmosphere was so noble...

Soon after I started to look deeper into things I had to realize that I was nothing more than member of a sect, believing in nice looking lies. The last blow was when we found out that Alexander achieves his high performance with horses by minimizing their social interact between each other. This was one of the facts that finally destroyed what remained of the International part of NHE, after Alexander published an article about what a good schoolhorse is like, and in that he told that horses used for NHE work must be separated from the herd as letting them in the herd will negatively impact their performance and intelligence(!).
While I was there I was just a cog in the machine, as everybody else. I also know I did hurt many people without reason, or because of what lies were told to us about them.

For example AND was showed as a kind of enemy to us. At first when people started to leave and go to AND, or having an account on both sites, we were asked to locate everybody who has an account on AND. We had to search posts on AND, looking for horse names, or other details with we can identify people, or simlar usernames. This happened after we were told that somebody from AND hacked the NHE server and stole inner the materials from there, and also that AND agents are luring people away from NHE in PM-s. Everybody who was active on AND was removed from NHE.

The nethods of NHE were very effective, and the leader of the whole "holy war" was not Alexander but Lydia. Lydia told us who we should gather info on, or who are "traitors". Lydia's method was simple, if somebody caused problem she found out or created proof against that person. Now I know many times she even ordered character assasination. I also know that after me and someother peson left the school, Lydia also created "proofs" against us and told the eople in the inenr circle that we were traitors too. After Alexander's article that finally crashed the school, many who left asked for theior posts and articles being removed. But Lydia in some case decided to keep good articles by changing the author name on them and stating that they were not written by the original author.

So about AND and its members, well... there are many who were blackened by Lydia thought did nothing wrong, but also were some who really did things that I still find unacceptable, like putting the health and soundess of their horses into serious danger. I do not remember all names but even if I do I will not name them. Now I try to give everybody tabula rasa, ven to those who I know truely did some bad things - I did mistakes too, hopefully they changed since that as I changed. so now I do my best to do not have any prejudice towards anybody here. Maybe you will too give me a new chance - I hope you do, but I have no right to expect it.

Also I know my introduction here was not the best. I am still a person who used to argue everything he do not agrees with, and I often do it in a way ordinary* people find agressive or offending, though I do not want to do so. let me tell some facts about myself.
First of all, I am an Aspie - I have Asperger syndrome. It is an "autistic spectrum disorder" by official term. It is discussed in two topics I posted to too, by the way. It is not an illness, not even a bad thing, it is just being different from the rest. Thanks to this I see the world in a very different way than neurotypical ("ordinary") people do. And NT people will never be able to understand how an Aspie saws the world, it is just not possible. Possible partially but not fully. In connection with this, I am thinking very systematically. Everything in my mind must be in order, and everything is in the complicate structure of reactions, rules and laws. There is a test to measure how much somebody thinks in systems. I got so high result that it was out of the diagram. So when I argue something again and again and again is mostly because I am unable to accept something and build it into my thoughts unless I fully understand it and I see no any contradictions.
In secondary school, at math class we learned mathematical... how to say in english... laws that MUST be used if we encounter a specific type of equation, like for example the solving algorythm for an equation that has two unknowns. Such things were told to us, and the teacher told that she could solve us why these rules work but that would take one and a half hour, and the tabel written full 6-8 times, so just accept that this works and use it. But I was unable to accept it unless I see myself that it is really true. So I worked out the solving, but in a way that it was only half page in my workbook and only 10 minutes to do. I showed it to teh teacher who was very surpriesed. After spending more than half an hour with testing my solving, she told me amazed that this is absolutely correct, but she has never seen such, not even at the University...
So this is why I am always saying that I see no logic in this or that. MY system of logic is very complicate, and very different from the ordinary. For example if I work with data, do programming or writing HTL coed there are diven patters I consider good and logic, and no anything else is good for me. If I get a piece of code from another programmer I need to work with, usually the first is that I reformat the whole by hand so it will fit my formatting style. In addittion I am very maximalist, I always try to make everything 102%. This is mostly applied to myself but sometimes I expect too much from other just because I would expect very much from myself.

All in all I know very well that it is usually hard to go along with me. It is your decision how you react, you still don't have to agree with me, nor like. And the fact that I am different does still not mean that you should look upon me different as you would if I were ordinary. Anyway, I honestly told what you should need, the rest is up to you.



Now I answer the questions:

Originally I thought I may just release everything as Public Domain, but I see one problem with that. If it is PD, a smart publisher can pick up any of them, edit them and sell prints for 35 Euro, as they do with the some existing translation. Since I will work for free, and want my pieces of work to be free, I would not stand watching some honourless businessman making nice money out of my work. And I am sure many volunteers would agree with that. so I decided to create a license that allows free use in any way, except such abuse I depicted above. I am still thinking about how to regulate selling copies for money though. I had some ideas like that they must leace a notice on the first page that tells that this is from the project and can be downloaded for free there, so if somebody likes that work it can stull purchase a printed copy can be put on the bookshelf. An other idea was that the publisher must offer a nice share of the income to any horse rescue or such organization.
By the way translations are generally the property of the translator so copyright can be put on them, sw on those we can put the license I specified above. Thos ebooks I get from other sources are of course keeping their original license.

The main point though is managing english translations. Most of the old books has no any existing english translation at all so most people in teh world are unable to read them. In teh some cases where an english translation exists, it is usually copyrighted b a publisher and being sold for 35-40 Euro, making it unavaliable for verybody with a lower budget.

About the wiki compatibility, sou should know that one text can be released under different licenses in the same time. So if the license I will proved on the project site would be not compatible, then simply another version with teh wiki compatible license can be uploaded there.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 4:37 am 
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Location: Alberta
Storm, this may be difficult to understand, but we try very hard not to speak ill of anyone outside of AND. Anyone. No one. It does no good in the long run. Most of us that are former NHE members can nevertheless find some good in our time there, something we are grateful for - some inspiration that we carry with us regardless of what the circumstances were surrounding our departure from that forum. We do not bash Alexander or Lydia. They are who they are and personally I feel that fate has placed them in our paths for a reason. We learn from all sources, both good and bad. Some things we learn what we would like to do, other things we learn what we do not wish to do...but it is all part of a greater education, and that educational journey is part of what draw us all together here. The freedom to choose when and where we learn about horses, and the freedom to share that knowledge here is what separates this forum from so many others.

You are not the first NHE'er to come here on the defensive (or offensive :funny: ) from the first posting. But hopefully now, you have discovered that this is indeed a kinder and gentler place. Read and enjoy what is freely shared, and leave your skepticism behind. This is a GOOD place. If we all respect that, it remains so. As I said in another thread, the rules here are simple, but they must be upheld to maintain the ability of all to enjoy this forum and to feel safe here.

So do not challenge the thoughts of another. Ask questions, but ask them kindly. Please do not discuss Alexander or Lydia any further unless you have something kind to say. Again, we all get our shot at unloading the emotional burdens that other forums can cause, but then we must let it go. Breathe deep and relax, and enjoy this forum.

I am grateful for your explanation of your condition. It helps to understand how you write, but again, you have to feel able to deal with what might not seem logical to you if you are to truly enjoy this forum. We each do what makes sense to us...we don't necessarily do what makes sense to another. We try to celebrate our differences because those differences are how we all stretch our imagination and our creativity. Differences are the fuel for our own explorations. Please do not say to another what is right or wrong, but rather challenge yourself to be open to a different reality.

If someone uses a word in a context that you don't agree with, either let it go, or ask them politely to expand on the idea in order to help you understand the context. But please do not simply disagree and then explain what you feel is right. Share your experience, but be mindful that you do not hurt the feelings of another in doing so. If you share openly, and accept that everyone perceives the world in their own unique way, you will see that others will share with you, and support you as well. It is all give and take in the most beneficial sense!

It would be very nice if you wrote an introduction (in the introduction section) and tell us about your horses and more about yourself.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 7:17 am 
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Joined: Sun May 20, 2007 5:52 am
Posts: 1852
Location: Taiwan, via NZ
Quote:
Just a brief original (I hope) sentence and a suggestion about a good, old book.

"Dealing with scientifically correct understanding of nature, good principles are merely excellent blinders".

The art of controversy, by A. Schopenhauer: http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/10731 (just to understand controversy tricks and the deep difference between a controversy and a discussion)


:funny: :funny: :funny: :funny: :funny: :funny:

Me too! My hat is off to you Alex, as I leave this puter realm again and return to my horses. :D

(By the way, found your title post quite thought provoking.)

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I have not sought the horse of bits, bridles, saddles and shackles,
But the horse of the wind, the horse of freedom, the horse of the dream. [Robert Vavra]


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