The Art of Natural Dressage

Working with the Horse's Initiative
It is currently Fri Mar 29, 2024 10:58 am

All times are UTC+01:00




Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 61 posts ]  Go to page Previous 1 2 3 4 5 Next
Author Message
 Post subject: BB
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 7:55 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 4:10 am
Posts: 3688
Location: Pacific Northwest U.S.
outriding wrote:
Donald,
Historically, Pat Parelli is all about riding bridleless. You probably know that one of his claims to fame years ago was competing with a mule in reining while bridleless.

I don't think it is about liability, as they don't have their students using bits until they can demonstrate ability to communicate with their horses using their rope hackamore. There are also segments within the program that require the student to ride the horse bareback and bridleless in order to achieve a particular level.

I do believe that the PNH program looks to the bit and the "finished bridle horse" as a potential end result. So, you progress with your horse to where you can actually use a curb bit or a full bridle for dressage refinement. The most recent talk from PNH management is all about their new ideas on the use of bits.

This is discouraging for me, 'cuz I would rather the direction be towards the amazing amount of communication we can achieve with our horses without the use of bits. In fact, now that I've changed my ways, it is shocking to me how much a bit gets in the way of true communication with a horse :shock: I watch my friends struggling to achieve collection (with a variety of instructors) and see their horses worrying about the bit to point of not perceiving the more subtle signals that involve projection of rider energy and weight shift. I never noticed this about bridled horses before. Now is just screams at me :(


Funny what a change in perspective can do, ONCE IT IS BASED on experience. We can aspire and be motivated, but once we actually manage to do it even once it becomes dedication more than motivation.

"I want that feeling again."

And I see what you are saying about PNH.

The horse I'm training at present has had nothing but bitless work with me. I can't speak to his prior experience, though I know the owner has bits, and likely has used them on him.

I keep putting off putting a bit on him and 'finishing' his training for sale (his future as the owner tells me).

I know it would be quite cruel to send him out untrained in a bit. He may move on through who knows how many owners. The chances of them all being, or even the first being, a bitless rider are highly unlikely.

So I will bit him up, but it brings tears to my eyes even thinking of it.

He's a good little guy that really tries hard to learn. And I know he'll come to accept the bit. I know how to train to lightness with a bit, and will, in hopes others will appreciate that he doesn't need hauling around by his head and mouth.

And I'm reminded once again the part that I hated about being a professional and left the business so many years ago.

Which, of course, makes me examine my path, currently, and examine what I can map out to move me further in the direction I wish to go, rather than responding to a direction the marketplace might offer.

I wonder what it is that keep Pat and Linda still preserving that path from bitless to bitted, if it isn't that?

Can they possibly believe still that a bit is what puts a finish, tunes a horse to more correct carriage and performance?

I'll be interested in seeing the direction they go. As a retiree I cannot afford the training with PNH, but I continue to value all people that work toward what they believe is a higher dressage.

So I watch and question others too for their observations and opinions. I value yours.

Thanks, Donald

_________________
Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 9:11 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 18, 2007 1:20 pm
Posts: 760
Location: Poland
Well, it seems that Parelli's didn't proceed to more "natural" horsemanship... quite the opposite :(

Image
http://files.parelli.com/Cradleinstructions.pdf

_________________
"Never just follow the crowd." Margaret Thatcher


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:20 pm 
Site Admin

Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 7:51 pm
Posts: 2055
Location: Netherlands
The funny thing is that this kind of bit cum noseband has already been for sale for ages, and probably a lot cheaper than the Parelli bit. It's for sale in the showjumping scene - that is, every tackshop on this planet. 8)


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:28 pm 
Site Admin

Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 7:51 pm
Posts: 2055
Location: Netherlands
outriding wrote:
Miriam wrote:
Quote:
For me the question isn't if dressage could be done with bit or bitless - you both communicate directly to the horses head and use cues with your reins to ask him to bend at the poll and turn his neck.


Am I misunderstanding you here? I say collection comes totally from the rear


I wasn't referring to real collection, but to the outline of the neck that a lot of classical dressage people feel the need to use a bit for. It's funny, because the classical dressage also tells us that it's indeed about what the horse is doing in the HQ and back that makes the neck to all those nice things. But apparently you still need the reins to establish the contact and the 'horse being on the bit' and therefore to collect the horse.

Good thing that I don't realize that, that save the ponies from carrying a lot of leather around during training. Although that little bit of weightlifting actually might make it an even better workout. 8)

And yes, I do know about the at liberty haunches-in-button. Bent Branderup introduced it to me (and the world?) in his books, and when I realised what I had read, I immediately put it on the NHE forum too - only to hear that that was nonsense as there was no travers button and regardless how it worked, it wouldn't work because it wasn't NHE. But in the meantime through PM's I did talk about it to people, if I remember correctly we wrote about it through PM's too. 8) And it just works. I still haven't had the time to put that piece in the groundwork section in the sideways movements. So if you want to add it to that topic, feel very welcome to do so!


Top
   
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:43 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 4:10 am
Posts: 3688
Location: Pacific Northwest U.S.
Miriam wrote:
The funny thing is that this kind of bit cum noseband has already been for sale for ages, and probably a lot cheaper than the Parelli bit. It's for sale in the showjumping scene - that is, every tackshop on this planet. 8)


I don't recall if you read my intro when I came to AND.

I was out of the horse world entirely from about 1970 onward until a few months ago.

I knew bits then, but no more, and frankly I can see that I have not missed much. :roll:

But I guess it's good to know the enemy.

There were similar contraptions back into the 1800s that I've seen pictures of.

And I've seen some real examples in old barns where estate sales were being conducted to liquidate a ranch or farm. Ghastly stuff.

This during a time I was training without bridle not even hackamore, just bare head, not even a rope around the neck.

Luckily burning witches at the stake had ended as a public spectacle by the 1950's.

It grew naturally for me out of the vaquero training methods that stressed lightness of aids. So light, that I knew the horse would work entirely with slight weight and legs cues, and the first time I pulled off a bridle and rode without out I felt a remarkable change take place in the horse, and of course in myself.

That's one reason I'm having such a struggle getting to the point of bitting the horse I'm training. The owner would, I'd bet, ride him bitless for the rest of his life, even if I just asked it, but the wife insists the horse be sold.

The rider has ridden him in my rope halter and watched too what the horse has learned with no bit.

I suppose when he sells I can show the horse to the knew owners and offer a few lessons.

Donald

_________________
Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:44 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 4:10 am
Posts: 3688
Location: Pacific Northwest U.S.
Miriam wrote:
outriding wrote:
Miriam wrote:
Quote:
For me the question isn't if dressage could be done with bit or bitless - you both communicate directly to the horses head and use cues with your reins to ask him to bend at the poll and turn his neck.


Am I misunderstanding you here? I say collection comes totally from the rear


I wasn't referring to real collection, but to the outline of the neck that a lot of classical dressage people feel the need to use a bit for. It's funny, because the classical dressage also tells us that it's indeed about what the horse is doing in the HQ and back that makes the neck to all those nice things. But apparently you still need the reins to establish the contact and the 'horse being on the bit' and therefore to collect the horse.

Good thing that I don't realize that, that save the ponies from carrying a lot of leather around during training. Although that little bit of weightlifting actually might make it an even better workout. 8)

And yes, I do know about the at liberty haunches-in-button. Bent Branderup introduced it to me (and the world?) in his books, and when I realised what I had read, I immediately put it on the NHE forum too - only to hear that that was nonsense as there was no travers button and regardless how it worked, it wouldn't work because it wasn't NHE. But in the meantime through PM's I did talk about it to people, if I remember correctly we wrote about it through PM's too. 8) And it just works. I still haven't had the time to put that piece in the groundwork section in the sideways movements. So if you want to add it to that topic, feel very welcome to do so!


I must have missed this "button" you both speak of. Would you be so kind as to tell me more about it here? Thank you.

And excuse my ignorance.

Donald

_________________
Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:59 pm 
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 17, 2007 8:18 pm
Posts: 4941
Location: Alberta
I think we pounded on Miriam relentlessly until she described the "button" just after this forum began...or maybe it was the tail end of her time at NHE?


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 11:10 pm 
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 17, 2007 8:18 pm
Posts: 4941
Location: Alberta
Ah...found it!

Donald, here is the discussion on Collection, where Miriam explained the "travers button".

http://www.artofnaturaldressage.com/viewtopic.php?t=9

It's very good that this was brought up...I want to see if Tam is strong enough to respond to it in a natural way.


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 11:29 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 4:10 am
Posts: 3688
Location: Pacific Northwest U.S.
Karen wrote:
Ah...found it!

Donald, here is the discussion on Collection, where Miriam explained the "travers button".

http://www.artofnaturaldressage.com/viewtopic.php?t=9

It's very good that this was brought up...I want to see if Tam is strong enough to respond to it in a natural way.



Thank you. I notice the date is long before I subscribed to AND. I guess I can forgive me for being ignorant, though I have meant to read the entire posting history of all forums...yes, really, I did. Honest. That's it, all of them. MMMMhhhmmmmm.... :lol:

_________________
Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 12:11 am 
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 17, 2007 8:18 pm
Posts: 4941
Location: Alberta
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Actually, it was a very good exercise for me to go back and find it! My sieve...I mean, my brain, tends to forget these little gems.


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 8:33 am 
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 15, 2007 2:40 pm
Posts: 4733
Location: Belgium
Miriam wrote:
The funny thing is that this kind of bit cum noseband has already been for sale for ages, and probably a lot cheaper than the Parelli bit. It's for sale in the showjumping scene - that is, every tackshop on this planet. 8)


Not ours :evil: 8)

_________________
www.equusuniversalis.com


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 2:19 am 
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2007 8:20 am
Posts: 6281
Location: Dresden, Germany
Here´s another one... seems like they are having great fun :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GpGjlXomH5Y

Her horse reminds me of HelenMai´s Esprit when he is chasing the tiger... :D :D


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 9:59 am 
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 3:20 pm
Posts: 1822
Location: Norway
I want a big ball too..!!! (And a flat field.... 8) )


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 10:39 am 
Site Admin

Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 7:51 pm
Posts: 2055
Location: Netherlands
Yes, a flat field would be nice indeed. 8)

We had a big blue rubber ball in the past too. Back then the pony's found him a bit boring as it always rolled down the slope of our paddock and got stuck under the fence. :roll: :wink:


Top
   
PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 1:11 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2008 12:56 pm
Posts: 33
Location: Grafton NSW
Hey found this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lD7Wpfqd2Vg
I really like the parts where she plays with Monty at Liberty and also some of the bridle-less work. Not so sure about the bridle though. But lots of parts in this video looked nice. What does everyone else think :?:
Also this ones is really amusing. :lol: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GpGjlXomH5Y


Top
   
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 61 posts ]  Go to page Previous 1 2 3 4 5 Next

All times are UTC+01:00


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Limited Color scheme created with Colorize It.