The Art of Natural Dressage

I wonder Karen in your human to human interactions just what situations you might find yourself in that you would chose the action that Tam did when he squared of and faced you and balked at further order taking - if that was what you were doign?

Donald, Altea, and Bonnie Cupcake

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Love is Trust, trust is All
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So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.

I don't usually choose to square off with anyone...I'm a chicken. Also the reason I choose not to square off with Tam!

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"Ride reverently, as if each step is the axis on which the earth revolves"

To chose to not do something is to do something else.

I'm not so curious as to what you do as to the situation where you react - say turning your back and talking to yourself in human relationships.

What is happening?

I do mean this more as a rhetorical question for my own benefit as I work on wrapping my mind around the enigma that is Altea. Bonnie is easy to understand - she's a child and thinks and acts as a child.

Altea is old and wise and set in her ways from what ever causes I cannot know since she was 12-13 when I got her 3 years ago.

She often does not want to do what is best for her - she needs to exercise for instance. She needs to wear a grazing muzzle.


She's not violent or aggressive in her refusals, when they come. But simply steps away. She's slick and smooth about her little escapes. She is also demanding at times, bumping the fence, or knocking a hoof against her stall door when she wants out.

These simple things are, after all, the stuff of relationship.

That is why your post strongly caught my attention - I identify with this sort of situation you had with Tam and others here have and discuss.

That other part of the horseworld I no longer inhabit, the "orthodox," I think of it, does not see these acts by he horse as something to consider as an acceptable part of the horse - human relationship. They think of it in terms generally used to describe non-compliant defiance and something to be dealt with by dominating the horse and "winning," at the horses' expense, of course.

By the way, I've been noticing the past few months more instances of folks outside of the AND circle using more and more of our AND language, and considering such issues as accepting "no," from the horse, for example.


Fascinating!

Donald, Altea, and Bonnie Cupcake

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Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.

I don't usually see that kind of "squaring off" from a horse as a display of dominance or invitation to fight. I see it more that their attention has been captured, and they're nervous to look away, so it's hard for them to obey a request to move off, until we drop our energy and can ask it in a way that they feel safe to respond to. In other words, the opposite of them feeling dominant, they are recognizing the others power, and may be feeling quite nervous and showing signs of submission. (In a high headed, scary looking way that may have us feeling equally nervous and afraid to turn away. ) Although if you push them at that point, they may respond by rearing or striking or threatening, because they feel stuck. Just as we do.

That's why I do a lot of driving exercises, and promise to myself and the horses that I will do my very best to never use my energy in an aggressive way when they are turned away from me. I want them to feel safe and not need to react, or try to turn and face me as an escape. I want them to always feel good about moving away from me, because sometimes I need them to move away from me to feel good.

So I would imagine Karen, that turning your back and lowering your energy is exactly the right thing to do for Tam - he doesn't perceive it as chicken at all. He would probably perceive that you are brave and unconcerned about him, and that you don't hold malice towards him. Humans and horses are sometimes quite different in their reaction to fear. Humans are more like sheep.

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I have not sought the horse of bits, bridles, saddles and shackles,
But the horse of the wind, the horse of freedom, the horse of the dream. [Robert Vavra]

Very interesting video!

Pia has done those kicks while we were running together as well, sometimes when being playful and sometimes when being annoyed - probably when I was running too fast or too slow or in the wrong directon or whatever might upset a little pony girl.

When I don't feel threatened I often reward her for it and then she is becoming wonderfully energetic and inventive with her moves. When I feel this is really not something I want in our interaction because I feel in danger, I simply stop in my moves and then take her muzzle into my hand, look at her very directly and verbally explain to her in a determined and calm voice that this is not the way we want to interact, because I did not feel safe. This usually stops the kicks or any other pushy behaviour completely.

If Pia wants to be dominant (whatever this might be), I am fine with it as long as she voices this in a way that does not frighten me or make me feel uncomfortable. When I want my will, I try to act towards her according to the same principles.

Fantastic video! Very nice body language and very interesting seeing Speedy react to it. I will review this often I guess...
And I did listen to the music this time!!! Yes, I am indeed capable of learning (despite my male nature) after that R- you gave me there .
I have to say that the music was perfect for this one and the video nicely edited to match it .

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Volker

The horse owes us nothing.

Wow guys, I was expecting maybe one response today, and now you're all here!

@ Karen: When you say squaring off, do you mean right at the end when he comes trotting to me? Looking back I realise that I cut it off the wrong way, as the first ten meters he was walking towards him, I got bored and then I asked him to trot, so that's where the high-headed trot towards me comes from. When he targetted my hand, he got a big reward, and then to check if we're ok again about space etc I asked him to back away from me in order to ask him to stand still at a distance.

By the way, Speedy has done little bucks in the past. Sometimes I ignore them, sometimes I say no and ask for a back-up and I think I even rewarded for it once after reading about Pia!
Monday I decided to take this route because it was the first time I actually felt his leg brush against my leg and then I felt I had to stand up for my trousers and show Speedy that if he wants to play wild horse he can do so, but not in a 5m radius around me.

It's actually quite funny: when he does a tiny buck, I most of the time get insecure of how to react - Hempfling style sending away (but isn't that mean to the poor pony, and for how long do I have to do that then)? Ignore? Reward? Send back (but isn't that mean either?)... If I feel I could disagree with a certain behavior for 16%, then that leaves a lot of room to doubt my potential response to it.
But now as he touched me I felt that Speedy gave me 100% disagreeable behavior, and there was no doubt at all about what I was going to do. And I really liked the challenge.

So well. I realise that this video might be a bit controversial. Probably not the best AND way to tackle a conflict, but I thought let's put it online anyway; the bodylanguage is interesting, it shows that it isn't just all harmony over here either (although we never have such big conflicts, most of the time they're just small 'I don't want to do that' situations), and maybe it can show non-AND people that you don't necessarily need whips and ropes to deal with a conflict either.

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New horse book: Mandala horses!

Never stop making mistakes! Natural Dressage

Yeah! Party at your place! If I had pants like yours I'd want to stand up for them too!

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I have not sought the horse of bits, bridles, saddles and shackles,

But the horse of the wind, the horse of freedom, the horse of the dream. [Robert Vavra]

great videos!

I have trained all the wild games out of O just because I just could not get him to leave me enough space... a shame really and my faulth, but I havent got enough time to just keep going on that, I want to actually do more things together then just: please do not squash me ha ha !

love the music too, always wanted to use the pink panter for Ino

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www.equusuniversalis.com

Miriam, I thought your responses were lovely and very AND...we DO need safety, and you did it in the nicest possible way for Speedy. The people who will think it controversial are those who don't understand the delicate balance that some of us try to achieve between getting those lovely energetic responses at liberty that help lead us to a natural haute ecole and simply staying safe and setting reasonable boundaries to do so. So Speedy is allowed to kick and buck, just not right on top of you...sounds perfectly reasonable and non-controversial to me!

Tam does not like to be sent away past a certain distance (I think that distance varies from day to day), and he feels some conflict, I think, because of my inconsistencies in rewarding. A long time ago, I rewarded him for leaving when he felt he needed to (feeling overfaced, etc) and that sort of morphed into a behavior of leaving and then immediately coming back for a reward and that began to happen more and more. Oops. My bad. I still think it's a cool thing to do (reward your horse for leaving) but I decided I needed to think it through better and perhaps not reward it so often, or only reward a couple of times then stop doing that. But I rewarded him often for his decision to come back after he would leave. So now, for instance, I will put the saddle on him, and when I turn to get his cavesson, he will leave. He does a large loop around the arena (at a leisurely walk) and then wanders back to me expecting a cookie.

Just recently I have stopped rewarding him for doing it, and now I am trying to up the reward frequency for NOT leaving in the first place. He still thinks he is supposed to leave. Then there are the situations where I ask him to leave...and he doesn't want to. So I've messed up somewhere. It's minor and I feel confident that we'll get it sorted out, but this more than anything (although defiance may be a part of it - "I don't want to leave and you can't make me") may be part of it as well. It's neither a dangerous situation nor is it one that cannot be fixed. I just need to have my brain in gear and be thinking more about when it's appropriate to reward and when it's not.

Donald, I love Tam's opinionated nature. He wears his heart on his sleeve and he tells me clearly when something is bothering him. It's rarely subtle (although some tension can be subtle and I'm gradually learning to see it or feel it better). We just completed six days of clinics at our barn with my friend Paul. Tam was not in all six days (he and I took part in two of the days). But on the other four days, we would come in and play or ride after the clinic was finished for the day. Tam is not used to daily interaction. By day six he'd clearly had enough. I had taken him back to the pasture but didn't have any treats with me. He and I have a ritual of "gate cookies". When I let him back out to the pasture, I close the gate and he stays at the gate while I give him whatever is left in my treat pouch. This particular day I didn't have anything. So I left him and went to get more. In that time he moved away from the gate and went to stand with his friend, Lacey.

When I came back to the gate, he was about twenty - thirty feet away from the gate. I called to him and showed him that I now had treats!

He perked his ears up, had a good look at me, then he turned away and moved to stand behind Lacey with his back to me. Oh dear. The next time I went out, all was well again, but it was clear that he felt that if he would come for treats that I would ask something more of him and he just wasn't up for it. He has no problem expressing himself. When I did go out again, we just goofed around on the ground and we did only what he wanted to do. He's now had several days "off" without seeing me at all, and the next time I go out we will again do only what he wants, maybe some grooming and I might file his hooves.

There are definitely people that would not accept a refusal from the horse...but in all honesty, Tam is completely fair when he says NO and it would be unfair of me not to listen to him.

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"Ride reverently, as if each step is the axis on which the earth revolves"

Thanks Josepha, and thanks Karen!
I love your story of Tam's... confusions. I have those training slip-ups all the time. I'm very bad at remembering cues for example, and last week I started to realise that I actually use the same cue for piaffe, travers and shoulder-in. So that could explain why Speedy kept messing them up all the time...
And now you write about sending Tam away, I don't even know if I can send Speedy away, never tried or trained that before! Yeah, of course he's being sent away in this video, but that isn't in a neutral state of mind. Hmmm, let's think about that some more...

The funny thing is that I really enjoyed our battle. When watching the video I can see several moment where I could/should have been afraid, but I wasn't at all. I felt as solid as a block of cement with my mind as sharp as a spear. It brought me back to 'the olden days, the first 6 months we had Blacky when every day with him was like this (with the difference of course that he really wanted to hurt me and Speedy just wanted to be able to go wherever he liked) and although I came out of those Blacky battles pretty much scarred most of the time (he actually landed me in the hospital once when he reared and struck me with his hoof on the head) I really enjoyed the focus, not being angry at all but instead being extremely sharp, thinking on your feet, making split second decisions on what can be allowed and what not.
This argument with Speedy of course was way less serious, but I still enjoyed it. But don't worry: today we had a really nice and calm and harmonious training session by the way and I really enjoyed that too. I haven't become an adrenalin-junkie.

What I really love about having our little battle of willpower on video is that you can see Speedy really collect himself naturally, neck high and arched, hindlegs tucked under, really collected at some points. Nice to see that the theory of natural collection really works, thanks Speedy!


And Josepha, I can really see Ino with the Pink Panther song. You should use it for his movies too (= a subtle hint for more Ino, Owen and Don Jamie-movies )!

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New horse book: Mandala horses!

Never stop making mistakes! Natural Dressage

Well, I decided not to be a whimp and post the video on two Dutch horse forums as well. It's so interesting to see the different types of response! Some people agree, some (well, most) think I'm being way too soft on him, one thought Speedy was a dangerous pony who shouldn't be trusted, some think Speedy hasn't really given up at the end and that I'm being way too calm, and others feel that our argument goes on way too long, that it should have been much shorter and more intense.

Really interesting things, especially as I've started asking them what they would have done different and what the exact effect would have been. I'm learning a lot, especially when it comes to how personal it is what you think is offensive behavior in a horse. Well, everybody agreed that the kick was offensive, but of course there's a lot more happening in the video, nice to learn how other people would respond to that.

_________________

New horse book: Mandala horses!

Never stop making mistakes! Natural Dressage

Such things as length of session depend on many things, including one's intent. But too, the intent of the horse factors into the exchange as well.

You and he are the best judge.

I've not watched your vid, and probably won't. Not because I am not interested because I am, very much. It's simply that I have a very slow download over terrible phone lines and often lose downloaded files part way through.

Be that as it may I get some picture of what you and he are doing as you describe some of the issues.

Why should Speedy "give up?" It's not a war and shouldn't be treated like one. It's a trust building interaction - and those can be rough, difficult and scary regardless of whether it's between humans, horses, or horses and humans.


Not to criticize them, but of course I will. LOL

There is a term in psychology, "Projection." It comes, as I recall, from a rather timeworn therapeutic method, but it still applies. This is when someone avoids looking at their own issues and projects on another what they themselves have as character or behavioral traits.

We are too quick, I think, to project our motives and their content upon horses who tend to act either in defense or play - rather than offensively.

Even their violent confrontations in herd acceptance happens more because we force them together than would happen in the wild. There they use approach and retreat over days often.

I think nothing of teaching a horse something very fast - like in five to fifteen days of patient approach and retreat. I think, if I'm not mistaken, Speedy is indeed treating you rather well doing approach and retreat with you.

I do a little think with horses that slam into a "stance," with me and snort. I carry a long lunging whip (I NEVER HIT TO HURT OR FRIGHTEN) and when they do that I very softly run the tip out so that a small handful of the end touches the horse on the chest area.

I make it like stroking the horse - letting him know I am not afraid and come in peace for a soft touch. All horses I work with, my own as well, I give this particular treatment to. We play together with this "touch," and my horses are calmed by the whip.

Since they are calm I can use it to ask, and do so. Always softly. But they get much caressing with it. I start all in hand sessions with this.

And if the horse cranks up his emotions, a soft touch with my hand if close, or the end of the line reminds them I am their to protect and to play, not to dominate.

Unless you are accurate with the lunge whip though I don't recommend it. A green horse or one not confident of the soft touch and caress of the lunge whip, will become very upset if you should touch some spot first that isn't acceptable. The chest nearly always is ... not so the head, barrel, or hindquarters, at first. Certainly not when emotions run high.

Too bad the word "whip," used as a verb, is so common, and of course then associated with the noun as hitting and hurting or forcing.

Mustangs, in taming settings, are first touched with a soft rag on a long stick - same principle.

By the way, there are many reasons for a horse to kick, trust issues being one, playfulness another. Sometimes horses think kicking is just part of the "touching," game. Turning, as you did, I think, and walking away, is a perfectly sound and effective way of communicating, "I do not touch like that, and won't be touched like that."

Pain, as in punishment, which I suspect those folks you've talked with mean for you to use, puts you in the position of setting the tone of the relationship as one of dominance through the use of pain. I do believe a few people have died from such misunderstandings. Certainly many have been injured.

Bonnie, at present, thinks that hip bumps are something we are supposed to do for fun and communication and herd mate behavior. I could hit her, but likely she'll just go to kicking back if I hurt her - she did once when I reflexedly pushed her off with a wrench in my hand and it poked her. She had every right, from the baby horse's point of view - as I was behaving like another horse with a bite.

Now I tell her verbally and by body language that I don't play this hip bump game. And she may take all the time it takes for her to learn it peacefully, as is her right.

Donald, Altea, and Bonnie Cupcake

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Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.

Hi Donald,

Thanks for your post! Must be annoying, to have such a slow internet connection! Well, on the other hand, it leaves you much more time for the important things in life.
I like the idea of touching the chest with the tip of the whip. I can see the element of suprise in that as well, breaking the tension by doing something that's calm but also unexpected for the horse.
I don't carry any whips/ropes when training at the moment, but I'll keep it in mind for when I do.



So I wasn't walking away, but instead sort of accepted Speedy's challenge, and actually had a blast trying to match his cunning plans, speedy invasions and all the things his tried on me. And I'm very glad I didn't have a whip/rope on me, because I'm 100% sure I would have used it in that case and it was really an eye-opener to see that bodylanguage alone could keep him at bay as well!

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New horse book: Mandala horses!

Never stop making mistakes! Natural Dressage

Projection is indeed a bugger. It all happens unconsciously and is rarely detected y ourselves. Anna happened to have a rather unpleasant conversation with someone yesterday, mainly about dominance issues. More or less the classical arguments and killer phrases, but what was interesting (albeit sad as well) was the fact that I recognised once again the strong similarities between the relationship this person has to her horse and her human relationships. The same level of dominance, aggression and mistrust is felt when she talks to her children or husband. The problem is that it is most comprehensible give her surroundings, family background, etc. But it´s scary nonetheless that one can hardly escape his one psychological background.
It was also one reason why I was not able to execute a more dominant approach of horsemanship. I tried but failed at being dominant . If you know my family background, you know why that is so and won´t be changed easily. At least not with lessons in horsemanship.

Just the other day I found a video again of Mucki on his first day in our barn. He was together in a small paddock with an older gelding, who constantly tried to bite Mucki and sometimes did take a bit of skin in his teeth and did not let go. Not in a very aggressive way but still he seemed to test Mucki´s reactions. Mucki did not react at all at first and then after a while he just turned and left. All with a very calm and rather uninterested expression.
At that time I thought Mucki was submitting to the other horse´s dominance, but now I know it was just the other way round. Mucki was "dominating" the game and it was on him to say either we play some more, or we stop because I´m not interested anymore.
Mucki taught me a lot of those lessons just by watching him deal with other horses...

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Volker

The horse owes us nothing.